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Grey Knights basically unplayable and haven't been addressed too much in that department since their release. DO you see a fix in coming? or will they stay the course making minor Adjustments and not a whole redue.

Edit; title changed to reflect contents of the thread by ingtaer.

The real answer is who knows. It is my understanding that a faction getting two codexes in one edition is a fairly rare event and MEQ in general need a massive overhaul. I certainly hope GW shows them some love.

I suspect that GK will remain about where they are for the rest of this edition. GW haven't done two codex books in the span of one edition since 3E IIRC, and they don't appear to be interested in making major changes through CA. Every edition some armies just get hosed, and GK are it this time around.

Ive got a box full of GKs in need of painting for an army...but alas.

Did GW fix the Grey Knights? Not completely. They did do a decent patch job though. We needed the terminator points drop that the rest of marines got. They left our standard terminators as one of the worst terminator models in the game now. Maybe next year? Strikes needed some love and the fact that an intercessor is cheaper and twice as durable is a bit of a slap in the face.

but, I find myself using models I haven't used in a long time. models like my venerable dreads, land raider crusader, lascannon razorbacks, purifiers, Crowe, stern, my ancient, and my paladins. They all see regular play now. This gives my army more versatility and fun.

Also, my win rate has gone up. I don't feel we are bottom-tier anymore... and very well could have moved into mid-tier. more playtesting coming.

I think there may be some coming like the formations in vigilus defiant campaign book, but in future campaigns. looking forward to those.

It is as if they went to see those rare GK tournament list, checked what is being used. Found out it is interceptors, NDK GMs and draigo, and then lowered the points for those 3, then slaped the point drops all other marines were getting and they were done with the fix.

For the hype they were making before CA came out, the changes were cosmetic in their nature.

I don't think GK will ever be a top tier army in 8th edition, no.

If you are totally committed to running a solo Grey Knights army you are not a competitive mindset player anyway so I can't see that it matters so much. Sorry if that causes offence.

If you only have a Grey Knights army and just play with your mates then work out what handicap they need to give you both a fun game. Your opponent brings 2000 points and you bring 2200 or 2300 or whatever it takes to be a battle.

Karol wrote:
It is as if they went to see those rare GK tournament list, checked what is being used. Found out it is interceptors, NDK GMs and draigo, and then lowered the points for those 3, then slaped the point drops all other marines were getting and they were done with the fix.

For the hype they were making before CA came out, the changes were cosmetic in their nature.

I half agree about the hype part, they made it sound like there was all kinds of changes. At least the list I had dropped about 300

They've already been "fixed" by CA17 and CA18, they'll probably stay at this level till the end ot the edition, like SM, AM and all the other armies that had their codex in 2017.

I think GW has gone too far with the new factions system and doesn't see armies like SM or GK as stand alone factions. GW probably sees GK like 1-3 units in an imperium soup list.

This only form a very competitive point of view, at casual levels any army can work decently, including GK.

GKs are basically done for this edition. I wouldn't expect anything more until they get a full new Codex, which likely won't be until some time in 9e.

A few caveats:

1.
It's entirely possible they continue to get points adjustments, but this alone won't really address the core issues with GKs specifically or Marines in general.

2.
They might get a sweet formation in a campaign book, which ends up being breakable and making them viable (which subsequently get nerfed if it's too popular!).

3.
There COULD be a point where they do Primaris GKs. Might not be this edition, they might still be crap, and if they ARE good it's likely that Primaris GK becomes the only viable way to run GKs, keeping old models unviable for the most part.

Nobody knows. But I guess not.
GW has already made changes to the pt costs of the some models of the GW model line.
Further changes should not be expected before the next codex.

TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.

GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.

Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.

Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.

This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.

GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.

Here is my problem with fixing Grey Knights. They aren’t broken. And before that causes people to freak out.. I don’t feel they are graded the same as other factions. People consider Custodes, Blood angels, Imperial Knights, and Guard to be “good” but none of those factions are really ever fielded as pure. Custodes it always a Triple shield capts on Jet bikes. Guard the Loyal 32, Blood Angels Slamguinius, ectra.

Grey knights are held to some let’s see them fight mono faction standard and they can’t compete there… kind of like almost no one can compete there.

I don't know why that is. I think a Supreme command with Draigo, a GMDK, and someone else could be a huge contributor on the table. Or a Venerable Dread Rifleman, with Astra aim just sweeping stuff off the table.

Really strange consistency issues with Grey Knights.

the_scotsman wrote:
Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops.

Agree with most of what you said about psychic powers - they should have a wider range to allow them more diversity per turn.

But the "Cheap Chaff" for Grey Knights is Guardsmen, is it not?

Personally I feel that Grey Knights should not be (and never should have been) a stand alone army. They should be something that any Imperial army can ally in, expressly for the purpose of smashing daemons/psykers; but against anything non-daemon/psyker they should be about as effective as a regular SM Terminator.

So you get one detachment tops, of elite troops, that are super efficient against any daemons/psykers that they directly face - but against anything else are essentially slightly more expensive SM terminators.

But that won't happen, so GK will continue to be bad for the time being, and probably much longer too.

I don't think Grey Knights can be fixed. They are an army that is virtually impossible to price without making them either underpowered or overpowered.

This is why you shouldn't build an army by taking 1-2 elite units and copy-pasting them into every FoC slot.

GKs should be a small part of a larger whole - not the entire whole.

If you're dead set against tossing half the codex in the bin, then the best thing would probably be to recombine them with the Inquisition stuff again (like in the 5e book). That way they'd at least have access to some cheap units and a better variety of weapons.

 Blackie wrote:
They've already been "fixed" by CA17 and CA18, they'll probably stay at this level till the end ot the edition, like SM, AM and all the other armies that had their codex in 2017.

I think GW has gone too far with the new factions system and doesn't see armies like SM or GK as stand alone factions. GW probably sees GK like 1-3 units in an imperium soup list.

This only form a very competitive point of view, at casual levels any army can work decently, including GK.

GK don't work in casual setting either. They also suck as part of soup. The same points spent on other armies is just more efficient. Worse if you take GK, and happen to run in to demons you just made your match up worse.

But the "Cheap Chaff" for Grey Knights is Guardsmen, is it not?

It is not. guardsman aren't in the GK codex, unlike tzangors. GK also lack primarchs, or synergies with other imperial armies. 1ksons by adding other chaos stuff get better. GK when you added imperial stuff, only make you want to play more of the imperial stuff and as few GK units as possible. Now am not saying 1ksons are a great army, they have their own, sometimes big problems. But 1ksons players seems to somehow be more happy then GK players.

Personally I feel that Grey Knights should not be (and never should have been) a stand alone army.

Considering that they had like 4-5 army books, it is a strang feeling IMO. Sure GK do suffer from copy unit syndrom, but the fix to it, is not the removal of the faction, but rather giving different rules to different units. If strikes and interceptors have almost identical cost, and you would never run a GK detachment to get CP, and the difference between the two is that interceptors have good extra rules and strikes don't, then strikes should get more rules. Maybe different psychic powers depending on unit, maybe stuff that is a psychic power should be an ability for a unit. Lets say astral aim is a psychic power, but dreadnoughtss have it as an ability. Baby smite as basic ability for strikes or termintors, would actually require making choice when building a GK list. Right now after taking HQs, there is little entice to take anything GK, and I don't think the goal of a rule set is to make people not want to play, and buy more models.

Grey knights only really worked/had to be a stand alone army back in 5th when they were essentially a broken/overpowered army. For most of their run they either had ally rules built into their codex or allies was just a general rule. To pretend they don't exist or aren't an option is just silly. Guardsmen are GK chaff because the IOM is pretty much one big faction.

The main issue is GW needs to clarify what is a major faction and what isn't meant to stand alone. A big issue is that the end of 5th/6th saw them give a ton more units to what should have been a sub faction to expand them to stand on their own. This has cause all kinds of issues since then.

 Silentz wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops.

Agree with most of what you said about psychic powers - they should have a wider range to allow them more diversity per turn.

But the "Cheap Chaff" for Grey Knights is Guardsmen, is it not?

I mean, inasmuch as the cheap chaff for World Eaters is nurglings, sure. They're not in the same codex, not really fluffed to work together often, and have zero synergies - the tzaangors and cultists in the tsons codex can all benefit from the psychic buffs and stratagems the Tsons have. Even Tzeentch Daemons can occasionally synergize with stuff in the tsons codex - the stuff with the daemon keyword anyway.

Grey Knights work far worse as a mono-faction or as allied support than any competing imperial faction. There's nothing I can do with GK that I can't do better with Deathwatch, for example. Or Raven Guard. Or Blood Angels. Or Custodes.

GK suffers from relatively poor stratagems (not as bad as marines, but still down there), poor psychic powers (BA, DA, heck even SW lists I'd take over their current list), poor army tactics (it's not the worst marine tactic, but it's no contender vs Ultras Ravens Salamanders BA....etc), and poor unique stuff (all their best weaponry is SM codex copy/pastes, and they're more liimited in how they can take them than regular marines, let alone deathwatch)

The reaon people focus on how they perform monofaction is because of how thoroughly they fall apart past the ~1k point zone. They have 2-3 psychic powers worth casting over smite. They are HIGHLY dependent on stratagems they can only cast on one unit to do damage and stay alive. They drop in power dramatically once you come up to the half of the army you can't deep strike.

They, like the current iteration of Ynnari, GSC, and Codex SM/CSM, need a redesign. Other armies do "psychic army" just fine. Remake the GK in their image, and you've got the imperial "psychic faction."

To address the original question: yes, I think they will improve. There's opportunities for it to happen, with an Imperial Armor release and possibly the Vigilus campaign. Imagining some new vehicle options or formations that make them more powerful then they are currently.

At the same time, I agree that they are a little better off then they were before. While mono-GK players might not see it, the CA points drop means it's easier to bring allies to accomplish some of the things GK aren't good at. I've been running Strikes / Interceptors with a Guard detachment for about the same points I paid for GK alone. It's not like I have some ultra-competitive army, but having more command points, tanks and chaff really changes the way you play.

If you can, take a look at the old Daemonhunters Codex and think about the way people used to run Grey Knights. I enjoy fielding Inquisitorial Stormtroopers alongside the silver armor, it makes for an interesting game.

They got what they deserved for breaking a whole edition. I love their model range, hate their fluff, thank the emperor there are the deathwatch as substitutes.

GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

So the current rules of a model range should be punished because their rules were "too good" in the past? I realize there's all sorts of hyperbole on the internet, but that sounds beyond foolish.

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
So the current rules of a model range should be punished because their rules were "too good" in the past? I realize there's all sorts of hyperbole on the internet, but that sounds beyond foolish.

Everyone comes out of the woodwork when someone's blaming GK but any time there's a wraithknight or riptide thread there's always those 3 or 4 people...

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).

It was often quite challenging, though Chaos Marines weren't too bad as long as you go after their lascannons and meltas first so your land raiders are basically impossible to kill. Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau were the hardest matchups, since their Lances were decent (not great) at punching through Land Raiders, and Railguns were STR10 AP1 so they punched BIG holes in you. Still though, I never had a game where I looked at the enemy and thought it was hopeless.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Against Orks or Tyranid hordes in 4E, I could see that working out. Against Eldar, Tau, Chaos Marines, Dark Eldar or Necrons however, I imagine such a force would find itself in a very challenging situation (and boy do I not miss 4E skimmers ).

I forgot how busted the Skimmer rules used to be. I remember how I almost lost my first game to Tau with my Necrons because I hadn't ran into Skimmers until that point and was flabbergasted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
GK were one of four or five top armies...three editions ago (it's hard to say that they were definitively stronger than SW's, IG, BA, etc in 5E) but were mega-garbage before that in earlier editions, and have largely been garbage since, at least in competitive terms. Nobody should be holding GK's accountable for 5E anymore.

They weren't mega-garbage in earlier editions... I really liked my metal GK army back when the codex was called Daemonhunters. In 1850 pts, I'd run 3 Land Raiders, 2 Strike Teams, a Terminator Squad, and 2 Grandmasters, Grandmasters with the Strike Teams, all in the Raiders. Land Raiders would identify and kill any melta / lascannon in the enemy as a priority, then would charge units to create a wall of armor (because you could move a Tank into a unit and the unit had to get out of the way) isolating a small piece of the enemy, the Knights would get out, and would start cutting down the enemy with assault storm bolters, incinerators, and str6 power weapons that ignored armor. Some of my most fun games were against Ork or Tyrannid hordes, you could just MOW them down if you moved your guys JUST right.

Eh they were pretty mediocre in 4th. I had a 1500 list (I think, it has been years) using the troop slots for the Storm Troopers with 3 Melta Guns in Chimeras, and ran Interceptors (which at the time were just Strikes with Deep Strike in your Fast Attack slot), Terminators, and Dreads. The regular dudes were okay but still pretty expensive for 25 points.

Some dude back in 2007 wrote a massive article on Bolter and Chainsword here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/101214-the-way-of-the-water-warrior/ that influenced how I played heavily. I had a lot of success with that method, and it's a pretty cool time capsule of what the edition was like reading through the article again.

To answer the OP:
No.

GW doesn’t have anyone with a real vision for GK working for them, which means we won’t get the fluffy and synergistic rules that make some other factions “pop”
IMO, the best thing would be to roll them into an Inquisition codex, giving a lot more flexibility to the army.