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OK, so I'm curious if there is anything against the rules on using my IG tanks and IG Chimera in a GSC list? I have a feeling that the paint scheme won't match the tanks/transports, but per the fluff, does it really matter? Aren't the GSC supposed to be infiltrating the IG and stealing those tanks and transports?

Anyway, again, is it against any of the rules (regardless of the colors used on my IG Tanks/Transports and my GSC troops) to use my IG tanks and transports with my GSC army?

Thanks in advance!

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
OK, so I'm curious if there is anything against the rules on using my IG tanks and IG Chimera in a GSC list? I have a feeling that the paint scheme won't match the tanks/transports, but per the fluff, does it really matter? Aren't the GSC supposed to be infiltrating the IG and stealing those tanks and transports?

Anyway, again, is it against any of the rules (regardless of the colors used on my IG Tanks/Transports and my GSC troops) to use my IG tanks and transports with my GSC army?

Thanks in advance!

SG

If you mean using them as a Cult Chimera and Cult Leman Russ, then you technically can't. As was pointed out to me, you only have rules permission to use datasheets for the actual models they represent, and not the reverse. If you want to use a Cult Chimera or Cult Leman Russ, you must use an actual Cult Chimera or Cult Leman Russ model. However since there doesn't seem to be a Cult Chimera sold by GW, I suppose most people would allow you to use a normal one.

I could understand using a Cult Leman Russ datasheet to represent a Razorwing Jetfighter would be against the rules. But, even going by the rules, conversation, and explanation in that other thread, using a Cult Leman Russ datasheet or a Leman Russ datasheet on a Leman Russ tank model should be no problem.

They are both Leman Russ tanks regrdless.

SG

I think BCB is being needlessly picky with this one. From a fluff perspective, there's a couple of different reasons why they could be using other regiments' vehicles, perhaps they've captured them from a depot? Perhaps the Magus(?) has done a shifty deal with the Munitorium before the Cult arose?

I would have no problem with it at all, and almost certainly anyone else you'd ever come across would object either.

To me it seems similar to using Space Marines painted as Ultramarines and using Blood Angel rules for them. I wouldn’t have a problem with that either.

Absolutely yes you can.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think BCB is being needlessly picky with this one. From a fluff perspective, there's a couple of different reasons why they could be using other regiments' vehicles, perhaps they've captured them from a depot? Perhaps the Magus(?) has done a shifty deal with the Munitorium before the Cult arose?

I would have no problem with it at all, and almost certainly anyone else you'd ever come across would object either.

So which is it? I say you can use it, people get annoyed. I say you can't use it, people get annoyed.

From what I have been told, you cannot use the "wrong" model for a datasheet. Thus it follows that you must use the "correct" model.

El Torro wrote:
To me it seems similar to using Space Marines painted as Ultramarines and using Blood Angel rules for them. I wouldn’t have a problem with that either.

Something like that has been covered in the Age of Sigmar Core Rules - Designers' Commentary:

Q: Is it okay to use ‘proxy’ models to stand in for models that I do not have but want to use in a game? For example, using a Slaughterpriest model to represent a Bloodsecrator, or using Stormcast Eternals models painted in the colours of the Hammers of Sigmar to represent Stormcast Eternals from a different warrior chamber?

A: The use of proxy models is generally frowned upon, because doing so can confuse the other players (and sometimes even yourself), and because it spoils the spectacle and aesthetic of the game. Because of this, you can only use proxy models if you’ve gained your opponent’s permission to do so before the game begins.

I don't see a reason why this wouldn't be GW's stance on the matter in 40K as well.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think BCB is being needlessly picky with this one. From a fluff perspective, there's a couple of different reasons why they could be using other regiments' vehicles, perhaps they've captured them from a depot? Perhaps the Magus(?) has done a shifty deal with the Munitorium before the Cult arose?

I would have no problem with it at all, and almost certainly anyone else you'd ever come across would object either.

So which is it? I say you can use it, people get annoyed. I say you can't use it, people get annoyed.

From what I have been told, you cannot use the "wrong" model for a datasheet. Thus it follows that you must use the "correct" model.

It's nuanced. It requires common sense.

Strictly speaking in a tournament event, BCB is probably correctly - At least so far as the models would have to be clearly Genestealer Cult.

If you're talking outside of a competative tournament event however - Your opponents permission is all you need, and if your opponent isn't giving you that permission, you probably didn't want to play him anyway.

So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think BCB is being needlessly picky with this one. From a fluff perspective, there's a couple of different reasons why they could be using other regiments' vehicles, perhaps they've captured them from a depot? Perhaps the Magus(?) has done a shifty deal with the Munitorium before the Cult arose?

I would have no problem with it at all, and almost certainly anyone else you'd ever come across would object either.

So which is it? I say you can use it, people get annoyed. I say you can't use it, people get annoyed.

From what I have been told, you cannot use the "wrong" model for a datasheet. Thus it follows that you must use the "correct" model.

It's nuanced. It requires common sense.

This is BCB you're talking to, the rules purist. Game rules in their purest form don't require common sense, they're either a "Yes this allowed" or a "No, this breaks the rules."

Obviously it's a common sense issue, but you should be able to see why he's willfully struggling with it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

You can't. There arent two different kits, the GSC one is just the Russ kit with a GSC bits sprue to cultify it. You can, quite literally, make a standard Russ from the GSC Russ box.

Exactly my point.

Have a look at the official kit

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Genestealer-Cults-Leman-Russ

Basically all you get in the upgrade pack are a few detail stick ons and a commander that looks like a stealer hybrid. So honestly I'd not see any issues with you using it in your genestealer army at all. Paint scheme being different likely isn't an issue either as stealers - well - steal stuff so having stolen tanks it wouldn't be a shock for them not to be painted in the stealers own scheme (esp if they just stole them right before the fight).


Technically it should have markings, but I'd doubt many places would have an issue and you only "might" have an issue at a tournament.


Also, honestly, unless you point it out to your opponent chances are they won't even notice! It's a handful of tanks within a genestealer cultists army

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

This is my main question as well. There's simply no way to know if it's specifically a GSC Russ or an IG Russ. On top of that, what about Sentinels and Chimeras? There are no GSC Sentinels or Chimeras, so you'd have to use IG Sentinels and Chimeras. The same could be said for the GSC Russ and IG Russ.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

This is my main question as well. There's simply no way to know if it's specifically a GSC Russ or an IG Russ. On top of that, what about Sentinels and Chimeras? There are no GSC Sentinels or Chimeras, so you'd have to use IG Sentinels and Chimeras. The same could be said for the GSC Russ and IG Russ.

SG

Stamp cultlogos all over it, because the army that is based upon subterfuge surely will Mark their leman russes so heavily.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

This is my main question as well. There's simply no way to know if it's specifically a GSC Russ or an IG Russ. On top of that, what about Sentinels and Chimeras? There are no GSC Sentinels or Chimeras, so you'd have to use IG Sentinels and Chimeras. The same could be said for the GSC Russ and IG Russ.

SG

All that matters is that your opponent is happy (unless it's an organised event, then it also matters that the organiser is happy).

Just make sure it's clear with your opponent what it is, and there won't be a problem. If you are running Cult Leman Russes AND regular Leman Russes in a Brood Brothers detachment, then it would be a good idea to do something clear to differentiate them. Sticking cult icons on the Cult Leman Russ as suggested.

Why? They're identical aren't they?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

This is my main question as well. There's simply no way to know if it's specifically a GSC Russ or an IG Russ. On top of that, what about Sentinels and Chimeras? There are no GSC Sentinels or Chimeras, so you'd have to use IG Sentinels and Chimeras. The same could be said for the GSC Russ and IG Russ.

SG

Stamp cultlogos all over it, because the army that is based upon subterfuge surely will Mark their leman russes so heavily.

Paint the cult symbols using gloss varnish over the fully painted model. That way you're put the dientifiers on but it's subtle. If someone asks how you differentiate, get them to hold the model right in the light to show off the gloss marking.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Why? They're identical aren't they?

Different factions.

Brood Brothers can use Astra Militarum strats. And I'm sure once the GSC Codex is out that there will be Strats and Tactics that you can use with your Cult Russ but not your Brood Brothers Russ.

 doctortom wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So how do you tell by looking at a Leman Russ which box it came out of?

This is my main question as well. There's simply no way to know if it's specifically a GSC Russ or an IG Russ. On top of that, what about Sentinels and Chimeras? There are no GSC Sentinels or Chimeras, so you'd have to use IG Sentinels and Chimeras. The same could be said for the GSC Russ and IG Russ.

SG

Stamp cultlogos all over it, because the army that is based upon subterfuge surely will Mark their leman russes so heavily.

Paint the cult symbols using gloss varnish over the fully painted model. That way you're put the dientifiers on but it's subtle. If someone asks how you differentiate, get them to hold the model right in the light to show off the gloss marking.

Radioactive Material is where it's at, yes the one that makes your watches shine in the dark!

I can’t honestly believe BCB is trying to tell people the art on the box matters. Ridiculous. A Leman Russ kit is a Leman Russ kit. This is a new low!

To the OP, ignore the silly diversion... the answer is ‘of course you can’. It’s entirely fluffy for a Brood Brother contingent to be defected/infiltrated Guardsmen too. Your Brood Brothers don’t need bumpy foreheads. Standard Astra Militarum models will do just fine. It’s quite a common thing for people to use the Guard force to supplement their Cult models.

I think it would only matter if you had standard russes in your army along with GSC russes (through blood brothers). Other than that I don't think anyone would care outside of an actually game at GW headquarters (the one with the wonky SM paint rules). I doubt it would even be an issue at LVO or any of the large US tournaments.

dont mind me.... im just here for the LOLs

By BCB’s logic you couldn’t include any ‘Relic’ or ‘Hellforged’ models in your army, because the FW website doesn’t have that bit in the model name. I’m creased even thinking about that being considered legit. Just stahp.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Strictly speaking in a tournament event, BCB is probably correctly - At least so far as the models would have to be clearly Genestealer Cult

Show me one tournament organizer that would check whether or not a Cult Leman Russ was built from an AM Russ box instead of a Cult Russ box, and DQ a player for that.
Armies usually have to be painted to a standard and be uniform. but checking the kits? Come on. This isn't a "strictly speaking" issue. This is simply not an issue outside of a few people's minds. Next you're telling me I can't use Devastator with BA shoulders since the kit isn't named "Devastator".

As a heavy converter i've never had a tournament reject a model if the blueprint is approximately the same. I can't see an objection in this case if my oponent us gsc i know what the model represents

U02dah4 wrote:
As a heavy converter i've never had a tournament reject a model if the blueprint is approximately the same. I can't see an objection in this case if my oponent us gsc i know what the model represents

As I said above, the only potential confusion is between Genestealer Cults Cult Leman Russ and Astra Militarum Leman Russ in a Brood Brothers detachment.

You'd need to make it obvious to your opponent which is which if you include both in your army.

But yes, beyond that you are right.

A leman Russ is a leman Russ. As long as the weapons are presented according to what it can take in the gsc there's no issue. Iirc the only thing that makes it a cult Russ is the nid icons right?