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My question is, if the eldar fell in the 30th millennium and the great crusade reuniting the lost planets of humanity is their any record of how the pre-fall eldar and the pre-age of strife humanity interacted, if at all?

There are not very many records of what humanity was up to before the Unification Wars. Humanity and the Eldar doubtlessly ran into each other, but who'd to say how it turned out.

My understanding is that for a long time preceding the Fall of the Eldar, a majority of them were like what we would consider Dark Eldar. If that is the case, interactions between the two races were probably not very friendly during that time period.

Prior to the Fall, the bulk of Eldar society had more in common with the Dark Eldar than the Craftworlders, definitely.

I have the vague recollection that in one of the novels an Eldar (Eldrad in HH: Fulgrim?) alludes to there having been peaceful contact between pre-Fall Eldar civilisation and Dark Age of Technology-era humans. You’d think that without the Craftworlders’ rigid determinism or the Cormorrites’ need to inflict misery and torment, they might be more reasonable than either flavour of 40k Eldar.

I would say there was pretty minimal contact, pre-Fall Eldar were so advanced they didn't concern themselves with other races, so much so that they didn't go outside of their own empire with the exception of the early Craftworld exodus and the exodites.

Some fluff has painted the Eldar as reluctant to fight much following the War in Heaven. So many species had been wiped out that they preferred to let such life as remained flourish where it could (aside from necessary "pest control" of the Krork/Orks).

With their society at its pinnacle as mankind spread out into the stars, humanity was no threat and may have provided some amusement for trading and interactions. As humanity became more powerful during the DAoT, the Eldar were already slipping into the cultural malaise that would lead to the Fall.

Overall I suspect that while there was contact between the 2 races pre-Fall, it seems to have been sporadic. Humanity was spreading out into the Galaxy just as the Eldar were turning inwards. This is in contrast to the Orks who seem to have been at war on-and-off with humanity ever since the 2 races set eyes on each other.

We know that at least some Eldar interacted peacefully with humanity. The Interex had dealt with them on friendly terms in the past by the end of the Great Crusade and had learned about the true nature of Chaos and the Warp from them. That could have been post-Fall though.

Most fluff I've read has limited contact because the Eldar had little to no need for any kind of trade or alliances. This was a society that was so advanced that most of them didn't even need to lift a finger to have a perfect life. At the same time right before going full blown murder court, they never came off as malicious or hateful. They don't even seem to have held a large amount of territory, they seemed content to hold the core worlds that eventually got swallowed up by the Eye of Terror.

"Some fluff has painted the Eldar as reluctant to fight much following the War in Heaven."
Most of their fluff suggests they were *very* warlike.

Their Fall came about from hedonism which was the result of there being no challenge in the universe. This tells us that the Eldar of the day must not have found Mankind to be a challenge. But there *is* fluff of pre-fall interactions between Eldar and Man.

Not a lot of fluff, though, so it's a very vague picture.

Thanks for the feedback.
I've read the Asurman and Jain zar books, is there much else that gives us a glimpse of the pre fall eldar?

I don't agree with the pre-fall Eldar being Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar was the outcome on indulgence of action and power. Sure many invested in Dark Eldar light behavior scaling to the outcome. But a good portion knew it was bad. I would say before ideological clashes and splits pre-fall was more or less Corsairs-like if anything. They didn't know what could happen if going to far and they also still have a huge arrogance and pride streak. They also enjoy pushing themselves to 'the limit' I would say, but also knew when it was morally crossing a line. I think pre-fall was more or less middle ground between CWE & DE, just some started loosing their balance. I guess the real shame would be one side learning contentment but also being complicit seeing their kin 'fall'. The other half enjoying indulgence of power and action but at a severe loss of empathy. One kin waits for the other to learn, but in the end they both have something to learn from one another. The only way that comes about is through Corsairs, possibly Harlequins. I like this thought process cause the DE hate one thing above all things and that's a psyker.... what are craftworld great at, its a classic warrior bro v mage bro and pride over came both. As they say pride cometh before a fall...

If Mon-Keigh meant anything it meant a lot back then. Eldar thought of themselves of superior at that point which started the indulgence & contentment process which in turn started the scaling of the depravity that it turned into for some. I'm sure for the most part Eldar where far advanced at the time, they more or less could of ended several races. But they rather ignore getting their hands dirty and rather focus on cultural and social issues since they where far more important as there seem to be a fight for 'superiority'. But both had a differing view on what was 'superior'. I would say keep in mind that factions happened even before the fall, one could argue the fall was happening even as the first two factions formed. So keep in mind you have to go way back for the 'pre-fall' topic at least in my mind.

TLDR: I would say Pre-fall is more or less like the classic elf scenario, a Utopian paradise build around social status, knowledge and cultural traditions. They where well unified and where not affraid to end any other races world if they dared messed with them. Indulgence & Complicit behavior corrupted them slowly over time though. One feeling far superior in knowledge while the other was more or less far superior in action.

This might be old second edition fluff, but did not the eldar use to reincarnate after they died in the old days?

 Niiai wrote:
This might be old second edition fluff, but did not the eldar use to reincarnate after they died in the old days?

Yes, that certainly used to be the case and I don't think that it has been ret-conned. Their souls are strong enough to remain intact after death and eventually find their way into new bodies. Then Slaanesh formed and effectively dammed the river of life by consuming the departing souls.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
I have the vague recollection that in one of the novels an Eldar (Eldrad in HH: Fulgrim?) alludes to there having been peaceful contact between pre-Fall Eldar civilisation and Dark Age of Technology-era humans. You’d think that without the Craftworlders’ rigid determinism or the Cormorrites’ need to inflict misery and torment, they might be more reasonable than either flavour of 40k Eldar.

Asurmen mentions it in the audiobook Asurmen: The Darker Road.

He mentions that the Eldar and Humans coexisted in 'relative peace' before 'The warp storms shattered their empire'.

It's worth noting that he's one of the only people in the galaxy who was actually there at the time, as well.

Well there are stil quite a few who where around at that time.

The Emperor and Asdrubael Vect. Presumably all of the necrons, and C'tans although the silent king might have been the only one who was out and about. The non-neo chaos demons and eldar gods.

Although they might not have that much to say on the subject. It is hard to get them to comment on it.

He's one of the few mortals to have lived through it.

Necrons slept through it, mostly, so can't comment.

He's also a bit unique because he likely lived through it multiple times independently- he is now an amalgam of many minds and souls.

Vect and Eldred also have relevant memories. Vect wasn't in a place to be as aware of what was going on, but Eldred was.

So Asurmen is either the most authoritative or second most, amongst mortals.

Bharring wrote:
He's one of the few mortals to have lived through it.

Necrons slept through it, mostly, so can't comment.

He's also a bit unique because he likely lived through it multiple times independently- he is now an amalgam of many minds and souls.

Vect and Eldred also have relevant memories. Vect wasn't in a place to be as aware of what was going on, but Eldred was.

So Asurmen is either the most authoritative or second most, amongst mortals.

I dont think eldrad was around in the dark age of technology. Isent he "only" around 10K years old? Same goes for vect (if he isent just lying).

The other phoenix lords would have been around too though.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
This might be old second edition fluff, but did not the eldar use to reincarnate after they died in the old days?

Yes, that certainly used to be the case and I don't think that it has been ret-conned. Their souls are strong enough to remain intact after death and eventually find their way into new bodies. Then Slaanesh formed and effectively dammed the river of life by consuming the departing souls.

This is confirmed to still be the case in the new ynnari books (if ynnead has his way).

I meant lived through the Fall, not the DAoT.

I'm not sure how old the other Phoenix Lords are.

Bharring wrote:
I meant lived through the Fall, not the DAoT.

The warp storms asurmen is talking about ended the dark age of technology. So eldrad and vect would not have been around to witness the period of "harmony".

- and nor would asurmen now that I think about it.

I'm not sure how old the other Phoenix Lords are.

Same age as asurmen.

I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

Presumably their source if the 3rd and 5th edition codex sitet longer down, but I can not verify.

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

So pre-fall eldar would probably take pre-fall human slaves to build things for them as the dark eldar do now. In fact, in the cresendo leaidng up to the birth of slanesh they could probably use a lot of slaves.

Edit:

How intact are the phoenix lords? They completly takes over the host, like excharchs do? No impression of the original remains?

With phoenix lords, the original personality is the dominant one, subsuming all others. PLs are a more extreme version of an Exarch.

Sure, they will still exist as memories and particular skills, but as an aware soul, they no longer exist. PLs are gestalts like the Avatar and Exarchs.

 Niiai wrote:


I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

The 5th edition codex makes it clear that he may by lying to gain status. So his actual age is a bit iffy.

But I dosent really matter. Asurmen is talking about the dark age technology = 15-18K years ago. There is no way vect was alive back then. Nor was Asurmen.

How intact are the phoenix lords? They completly takes over the host, like excharchs do? No impression of the original remains?

Its the other way around. The PL will consume the new wearer. That is not the case with Exarchs. In the new fluff, it is even possible for the exarch to leave behind the path of the warrior.

 chromedog wrote:
PLs are gestalts like the Avatar and Exarchs.

Where did you read that about the avatar?

Keep this in mind. Eldrad was stated to come after the Fall, but he still was enough of a presence that he Warned the Marines and the Emperor of the Traitor.

At some point after the Realm of Mankind fell....The Squats emerged and traded with both Orks and Eldar. The Eldar wanted their aid in fighting the Orks but they saw no purpose to join wars. Later the Orks in one of the Biggest Waaagh ever almost wiped out the Leagues and the Eldar would not come and rescue the Squats. Presumably they were trying to survive at the time? Not sure if that was prior to the Fall or leading up to it.

Also there were the Exodites that had conflict with the Knight Worlds. The books indicate there are more Exodites than the other elder combined and of all them are the ones most successful....So reading into that they are probably growing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Dark Age of Technology
Squats meet Eldar, Eldar and Orks war
Squats war with Orks, Exodus
The Fall
The Great Crusade
Asurmen, Vect and Eldrad during the Emporers Reunification.

 Andersp90 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

The 5th edition codex makes it clear that he may by lying to gain status. So his actual age is a bit iffy.

But I dosent really matter. Asurmen is talking about the dark age technology = 15-18K years ago. There is no way vect was alive back then. Nor was Asurmen.

This part about Vect past it's not from codex but from an story published in the WD (i still own it and can read the whole history) Vect just tell a human slave, the fall of the Eldar or more exactly how the same moment Slaanesh was born he avoided his own sacrifice to some cult and rushed to hide somewhere safe from Slaanesh.

At the end of the history Vect mock the slave since not knowing if the history is true or not will just torment him further, when the slave says he's just a liar and has no need to believe it Vect seems annoyed and show a scar on his neck (in theory showing the history is real and he avoided being cut throat)

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

The 5th edition codex makes it clear that he may by lying to gain status. So his actual age is a bit iffy.

But I dosent really matter. Asurmen is talking about the dark age technology = 15-18K years ago. There is no way vect was alive back then. Nor was Asurmen.

This part about Vect past it's not from codex but from an story published in the WD (i still own it and can read the whole history) Vect just tell a human slave, the fall of the Eldar or more exactly how the same moment Slaanesh was born he avoided his own sacrifice to some cult and rushed to hide somewhere safe from Slaanesh.

At the end of the history Vect mock the slave since not knowing if the history is true or not will just torment him further, when the slave says he's just a liar and has no need to believe it Vect seems annoyed and show a scar on his neck (in theory showing the history is real and he avoided being cut throat)

I was pretty sure I also read something similar in the 5th edition codex, but I can't seem to find it anywhere in the dex. My bad.

The story perversor is referring to can be read here: http://web.archive.org/web/20110124235427/http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1520304a_TheTorturersTale.pdf

 Andersp90 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

The 5th edition codex makes it clear that he may by lying to gain status. So his actual age is a bit iffy.

But I dosent really matter. Asurmen is talking about the dark age technology = 15-18K years ago. There is no way vect was alive back then. Nor was Asurmen.

How intact are the phoenix lords? They completly takes over the host, like excharchs do? No impression of the original remains?

Its the other way around. The PL will consume the new wearer. That is not the case with Exarchs. In the new fluff, it is even possible for the exarch to leave behind the path of the warrior.

 chromedog wrote:
PLs are gestalts like the Avatar and Exarchs.

Where did you read that about the avatar?

Doesn't exarchs leaving the path contradict the entire point of them?

pm713 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


I think it depends upon your definition of what we are asking for.

From the wiki of Vect:

"Asdrubael Vect was born as a low-class underling in Commorragh and sold into slavery as a child. According to Vect's own account, related to a human slave, in his youth he personally witnessed the Fall of the Eldar in the late 29th or early 30th Millennium."

So he was young during the fall. But what is a 'young eldar'? Presumably he was a child in the cresendo leading up to the fall. Also how did he survive? The known survivors where on distant craftworlds, remote exotide worlds or the dark city. (Presumably then stil only the satelite realms.) Given he was a slave I am putting my money on the dark city. He probably ahd little to do with humans besides the slaves they presumably collected.

The 5th edition codex makes it clear that he may by lying to gain status. So his actual age is a bit iffy.

But I dosent really matter. Asurmen is talking about the dark age technology = 15-18K years ago. There is no way vect was alive back then. Nor was Asurmen.

How intact are the phoenix lords? They completly takes over the host, like excharchs do? No impression of the original remains?

Its the other way around. The PL will consume the new wearer. That is not the case with Exarchs. In the new fluff, it is even possible for the exarch to leave behind the path of the warrior.

 chromedog wrote:
PLs are gestalts like the Avatar and Exarchs.

Where did you read that about the avatar?

Doesn't exarchs leaving the path contradict the entire point of them?

It does.

Yet that is exactly what the visarch did.

It really does amaze me just how much GW seem to actively try to push me out of the game.

That's why I stopped reading their "new" fluff post-5th ed.

It's also the best part about there not being a set "canon". It's ALL half-remembered legends glued together with equal parts sod and horsesh*t. You are free to ignore any and/or all of the parts that you don't particularly like.

The eldar fluff reached a peak in 2nd ed (when the good stuff was written, built on the foundations of the 1990 redesign. It was a downhill slide after that. It went past bottom a couple of editions ago.