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I want to get back into 40k and all I have played where XENOS armies and I have desided from the BT or DW.

But what is the main difference between those 2?

Deathwatch is actually semi-competitive now.

BT is only for fanbois.

Yeah thats what I see,,sad.

Deathwatch if you want a more elite infantry focused army. Your infantry squads are heavily customizeable and can have deadly and survivable loadouts with SIA. Current hotness is storm bolters and storm shields, but go nuts if you want.

Armor is limited without going forgeworld, but the Corvus Blackstar is sweet.

I'll throw in another vote for Deathwatch. They're very versatile and you can adapt them to fit your play style.

Deathwatch are the best marine army at the moment. BUT...

Black Templars have a new specialist detachment that has made them pretty horrific in CC. BT Vets with stormshields and hammers can benefit from Helbrecht's aura and the new 2cp strat to mean just a 4-vet team (128pts) can dish out 13 TH attacks, S10, rerolling all hits and wounds. That's 19 damage on a knight in CC in one turn, that is a serious threat and a serious option in the knight meta. Their big problem is obviously durability, as 4 wounds with 3++ doesn't get you that far.

I'm seriously contemplating converting a small Black Templar Vanguard force to soup in with other stuff, with the Emperor's Champion, a smash cap, Helbrecht, even grimaldus who's now only 90pts and gives a nice buff. They're not top-table but I do think they have some options.

Plus, they are coooool.

Deathwatch. And I'll tell you why...

Their rules are good. And you're making an army where eventually, every single dude can be his own character in a way.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Deathwatch. And I'll tell you why...

Their rules are good. And you're making an army where eventually, every single dude can be his own character in a way.

As long as nearly every character carries a stormshield and stormbolter that is... :/

 grouchoben wrote:
As long as nearly every character carries a stormshield and stormbolter that is... :/

I don't expect TFG's to really put much personality into their Space Marines.

Never ever pick and army that has bad rules. May as well burn the money on the spot. Saves time beind unhappy.

DW have ok veterans after the change. They have primaris marines that were actually worth taking. They didn't get worse, it is just that vets got a lot better. Still in casual games a primaris DW list at least feels as if it was doing something.

BT are for masochists.

As a Black Templars player, Deathwatch. Templars have been the neglected red-headed step-child ever since they got folded into Codex: Space Marines despite everyone who didn't play Black Templars assuring those of us that did that we wouldn't lose anything anyway.

Black Templars are a Codex: Space Marines Chapter with a fairly minimalist selection of unique material that suffer from having melee-centric rules in a book where the only good melee unit is the Primarch of a different Legion. Building an effective Black Templars army in the current climate involves ignoring most of their unique stuff in favour of a general-purpose Codex Marine death-castle of heavy weapons and character auras, there are few positive reasons to use them if you don't really like their lore/paint scheme.

The Deathwatch have their own Codex and a number of unique squad configurations not replicable by normal Space Marines with rules that focus primarily on getting much greater utility out of their basic rifles than a normal Space Marine does; they're more expensive than the normal Codex and they've got the same durability problems as the normal Codex but they make up for it by turning their infantry into functional glass cannons of short-range shooting capable of dishing out extreme amounts of ranged damage. They also overcome the shortcomings of many basic Primaris units by making Intercessors and Reivers a much greater ranged threat than they are under their base rules, allowing Hellblasters to hide behind cheaper ablative bodies, and allowing mixed Primaris Kill-Teams to fall back and shoot with the inclusion of an Inceptor, as well as allowing Primaris models to use the Teleportarium to position much further up the table without getting shot to death.

Between the two I'd strongly recommend the Deathwatch.

Karol wrote:
Never ever pick and army that has bad rules. May as well burn the money on the spot. Saves time beind unhappy.

DW have ok veterans after the change. They have primaris marines that were actually worth taking. They didn't get worse, it is just that vets got a lot better. Still in casual games a primaris DW list at least feels as if it was doing something.

BT are for masochists.

Never pick an army for powerful rules. Editions/codexes come and go, and today’s hotness might be FAQ’d into garbage tomorrow. You spend far too much money chasing the meta and trying to stay competitive. You are better off picking an army you are passionate about, so even if you loose, you are doing it with an army you love. For the time, money, and effort we spend building an army, it should be something you enjoy.

The truth, of course is somewhere in the middle. Let’s be honest, nobody wants to spend all their time loosing. You want an army that looks and feels like something you want, but is competitive enough to win at least some games at the FLGS casual level. BT plays counter to the strengths of the marine codex, which is traditionally very middle of the road. Most of the niche builds that can be successful rely on CT/characters that are not BT. If you are passionate about BT, you can probably make it work locally, but it will be an uphill battle. Deathwatch is in a much more solid place in the rules right now, but also has some issues (lack of decent AV, very CP hungry, etc)

Deathwatch. I play Ultramarines and now I am starting a Deathwatch army. They are just more fun and not so predictable as SM. Also their stratagems and tactics are better, plus tue SIA.

Editions/codexes come and go, and today’s hotness might be FAQ’d into garbage tomorrow.

Tell that to the eldar players. Was there ever an edition when they were bottom tier?

You are better off picking an army you are passionate about, so even if you loose, you are doing it with an army you love.

And after 100 games lost, where your army gets spanked, your opponents give you handicaps and win, you start the hate the army more, then people that never played it. Worse if you were in different about a list and it got bad, you just won't care. But if you did care and an army is bad an edition after edition, there passion can easily switch from like to hate.

Karol wrote:

Editions/codexes come and go, and today’s hotness might be FAQ’d into garbage tomorrow.

Tell that to the eldar players. Was there ever an edition when they were bottom tier?

You are better off picking an army you are passionate about, so even if you loose, you are doing it with an army you love.

And after 100 games lost, where your army gets spanked, your opponents give you handicaps and win, you start the hate the army more, then people that never played it. Worse if you were in different about a list and it got bad, you just won't care. But if you did care and an army is bad an edition after edition, there passion can easily switch from like to hate.

Eldar, as an army, might often be top of the heap, but the units that get them there shift rapidly. Jetbikes and Writhknights? Hot in 6/7th, garbage in 8th. Falcons and Starcannons used to be a thing. So while your “army” might still be good, you have to re-invent it constantly. As an army of specialists, they will generally have the right tool to exploit the current edition, but what that is is fickle.

The same could be said for most armies, but Eldar are particularly mercurial.

40k works best when played with people who have the same idea in mind. If you want to play very competitive, you can. If you want to play casual, you can. But don’t mix the two. And while the game tends to get very restrictive about what’s viable at the more competitive levels, at more casual levels a lot more stuff can work.

So if you want to play tournaments, then yes, there are going to be some severe restrictions to what you should bring and play. And that might change every few months. And the answer is not going to be either of the armies the OP was asking about, but “Soup”. Until that changes. I’ve been playing TAC Ultramarine lists for a very long time now. From any “competitive” POV, they have objectively sucked. But I’ve been enjoying the game for a few decades now by playing with friends and at FLGSs where there are people who understand that min/maxing is not the only way to play (although they do that do when they want). What I don’t do is take fluff lists in when people are doing tournament prep. But there are a lot of different ways to play. Someone want to play more competitive, I tighten things up. New players, I relax. Either way, I try to bring the same scale list as my opponent so everyone has fun.

Honestly, why not both? Take a battalion of deathwatch, then a small detachment of Templars with the Vigilus formation.

If just one though, Deathwatch are good but you will need to soup in support for the most part to fulfill AT etc.

Eldar, as an army, might often be top of the heap, but the units that get them there shift rapidly. Jetbikes and Writhknights? Hot in 6/7th, garbage in 8th. Falcons and Starcannons used to be a thing. So while your “army” might still be good, you have to re-invent it constantly. As an army of specialists, they will generally have the right tool to exploit the current edition, but what that is is fickle.

when was the last time anything BT was on the same level as eldar then? Picking a bad army is just stupid. People can always counts as . Jetbikes can be s spears, what ever infantry was good once, can be reapers. I think, although this am basing on stories, farseers were always good etc.

Until that changes. I’ve been playing TAC Ultramarine lists for a very long time now. From any “competitive” POV, they have objectively sucked. But I’ve been enjoying the game for a few decades now by playing with friends and at FLGSs where there are people who understand that min/maxing is not the only way to play (although they do that do when they want)

non competitive aren't ultramarines the ones with the biggest number of characters, special units etc And now they have the only unit that makes marines ok, that no one else can use. that is like saying someone plays a casual eldar soup list. Also playing with friends or not, just take 2k pts of a good codex, make a casual list out of it and play it vs something bad like GK. I tried it, it sucks. And the bad moments start to when people quit games in middel, because they know they won, or when they let you win by doing stupid stuff. But the worse moments is when they try to let you win, but your army loses anyway, because of how bad it is. One would have to be paid a monthly salary to play a bad army for a longer time, or be more crazy then I am.


Ah and by the way that kind of a, it is going to be tough, but in the end you will like it kind of talk made me start GK. From what I know, BT are far off from them as far as playability goes. And I wouldn't wish anyone a GK expiriance, aside maybe for someone I would really dislike.

This is the edition of you have some IG squad that needs some nearby BT support who call in some Deathwatch to help with some special ops.

I think?

EDIT. Anytime my buddy plays some BT it always feels like the rivalry is on. It just feels like a better game.

Well the new Beta bolter rules all but make any choice other than Deathwatch a bad idea.

Deathwatch also have the advantage of being a full faction as opposed to a subfaction and their entire range is only, what, two years old, so the models are all very handsome. Also, as a faction, they make a perfect fit if you have interest in playing Kill Team.