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So I see the whole roll of reivers which is a specialised lightning strike unit who use stealth. The question is will gw replace scouts with reivers in future or even just make a new scout equivalent?

Are there any examples in the fluff of scouts being turned prinaris
   
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The Eternity Gate

Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

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Reivers fit a similar role as Scouts, but they're fully developed Marines in power armor, while scouts are still neophytes.

I do hope they stay separate as I rather like scouts.

   
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Rogerio134134 wrote:
...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

  • Scouts -> Reivers
  • Tacticals -> Intercessors
  • Devastators -> Hellblasters
  • Assault Marines -> Inceptors
  • Terminators -> Aggressors
  • Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
  • Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor


  • And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.
       
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     Ginjitzu wrote:
    Rogerio134134 wrote:
    ...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

    Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

  • Scouts -> Reivers
  • Tacticals -> Intercessors
  • Devastators -> Hellblasters
  • Assault Marines -> Inceptors
  • Terminators -> Aggressors
  • Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
  • Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor


  • And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.

    Except neither Aggressors or Reivers fulfill the same role as scouts, and both are inferior.

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     Wyzilla wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Ginjitzu wrote:
    Rogerio134134 wrote:
    ...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

    Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

  • Scouts -> Reivers
  • Tacticals -> Intercessors
  • Devastators -> Hellblasters
  • Assault Marines -> Inceptors
  • Terminators -> Aggressors
  • Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
  • Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor


  • And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.

    Except neither Aggressors or Reivers fulfill the same role as scouts, and both are inferior.


    I won't argue that the analogues are good.
       
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    Basically in want to buy some scouts but worry they will be retconned some time in the future!

    I wonder what the process of making Primaris is? Is it the exact same as normal marines or do they just make them straight into a Primaris instead of doing the neophyte stage
       
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    No, they're not going anywhere any time soon. Definitely.

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    Reivers fill a slot that Scouts do not.

    I'm not sure what that slot is, specifically, but they're filling... something. And hey, I'm one of the odd people that really actually likes the general idea. There was a good short story in the recent White Dwarf about them scaling up spires in a hive city, and I think it's cool for Space Marines to have a 'lightweight, fast' variation of their power armor.

    Scouts, however, are pretty solid and they do what they do, and Reivers can't cover that.

    Until GW decides to merge Primaris and OldMarines into one hybrid thing or outright discontinue OldMarines and add more to the Primaris line... Scouts are gonna be around for a while.

    But Good Lord are they in dire need of a new kit.

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    This is the thing, has there been any info in books about how new Primaris are made? Is it exactly the same process as before but it's just a different end result?
       
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    The problem is that Reivers are the weakest of the analogues.
    Intercessors are clearly Primaric Tacs
    Aggressors are Primaris Terminators
    Hellblasters are Primaris Devs, etc

    But Reivers are not really like Scouts at all, save their forward advancing tactics. But I'd argue that they are more like Assault Marine without jump packs than like Scouts.
    There is also the fact that Reivers are NOT Troops like Scouts.

    So for me, there is just too many differences for Reivers and Scouts to be considered equivalents to one another

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    Scotland

    Trying to rewrite some of my homebrew chapter lore to fit Primaris, I encountered the same question. I agree though they are more like Assault Marines than Scouts. Fast at least through ruins with grapnels, get deep strike, essentially have a chainsword. I believe like Aggressors and Hellblasters both share the Fire Support role, Inceptors and Reivers both share Close Assault roles, and only Interceptors are Battleline. Not to mention Reivers are deployed along with Aggressors in the Elites part of the list rather than Fast Attack. In the field they do look like they do similar roles, ranging wide of the enemy, gathering intel, annihilating patrols, laying traps and ambushes so they can strike at the enemy's flanks when the main force engages in battle.

    As for what Scouts actually do on the tabletop rather than the lore, they are the cheap bulk troop choice to support the Tactical core of the old gun line if you had them, spread out, infiltrate and scout move into no man's land and deny area and apply pressure.
    Reivers deep strike or outflank and make surgical hits to break the enemy rank, remove an enemy's vital unit or force a distraction to allow the main force to go about its business, more like an Assault Squad or Vanguard Veteran Squad.

    Back to the lore, some chapters don't run their neophytes as scouts. The Templars famously run their tactical squads with their neophytes as Crusader Squads and usually tend toward short fire support with special weapons and shotguns or heaps of bolters, or close combat, while others run veteran marines in the Scout Company like the Space Wolves. On the other hand, a Reiver is by definition a fully fledged Primaris marine who has undergone training, all implantation and given his battle armour. A chapter that runs experienced marines in their scout Company could employ Reivers in this role instead of regular scouts, besides snipers and camo cloaks they have roughly equivalent equipment. Bolt Carbines/Bolters, Heavy Pistols/Shotguns at S5, though the Reiver's have that load hybridised with the pistol and combat knife. Instead of Camo they get better armour and get rapid insertion options with their equipment instead of concealed positions.
    However, most chapters do train their neophytes by combat in the 10th Company before their promotion to full Battle-Brother, so I doubt this radical shift would change procedure for many chapters.

    I don't see Reivers actually replacing the Scouts for a long long time, though I am convinced many chapters would second some Reivers to Scout deployments. Maybe the 10th Company could run ~80 Scouts and ~20 Reivers if the chapter caps their Scout Company at all.

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    I don’t think they fit scouts at all.
    Definitely more like Assault Marines in style and operating tactics surely?

    I don’t know why full marines would be seconded to the 10th.

    But also as mentioned above somewhere, do Primaris just come out fully cooked, or do they need time as scouts still like regular marines do?
       
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    Scotland

    Primaris, at least other than the ones Cawl and Rouboute handed out like party favors from his cold storage, are trained and made in the same way as any other marine. The only difference is in the later stages of implantation, they get 3 new parts Cawl worked into the process.
    Sinew Coils, the Magnificat and the Belisarian Furnace.
    The coils are durametallic fiber mesh through their muscle structures, not I suppose unlike the electropolymer and fiber bundles in power armour itself, and act as durable, powerful artifical muscle. The Magnificat is part of the immortis gland the Emperor put in the Primarchs but Cawl only found some of the genetic blueprints. Whether the Emperor himself destroyed the records or other forces is unknown. It interfaces with the biscopea and osmodula and helps bulk the marine up. The Furnace is a gland between their primary and new heart that can release a massive healing boost and adrenaline rush, like a dose of combat stimms.

    Honestly, the only reason Primaris units can't just fight like normal marines is Gulliman's decree to follow the old single armament legion style. I would love to see Primaris Tacticals with a Las Talon, Plasma Incinerator and Bolt Rifles. Deathwatch can kinda run these, besides stuck with Incnerator, Bolt Rifle variants with Reivers/Aggressors/Inceptors mixed in.

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    Come 9th edition Old Marines will be relegated to "Index Only" status or perhaps even "Just use them as "Counts as" Primaris Marines" because GW can't copyright the name "Space Marine".

    +++++There are currently EIGHTY EIGHT (88) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
    Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
    Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
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     Ginjitzu wrote:
    Rogerio134134 wrote:
    ...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

    Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

  • Scouts -> Reivers
  • Tacticals -> Intercessors
  • Devastators -> Hellblasters
  • Assault Marines -> Inceptors
  • Terminators -> Aggressors
  • Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
  • Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor


  • And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.


    I'd kick up a fuss. I'm in the middle of paying someone to commission what is essentially an entire space marine scout army, replete with custom angry marine scenes, dioramas, artwork, illustrations - I'd be pissed.

       
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    Scotland

     Dashofpepper wrote:

    I'd kick up a fuss. I'm in the middle of paying someone to commission what is essentially an entire space marine scout army, replete with custom angry marine scenes, dioramas, artwork, illustrations - I'd be pissed.


    That sounds utterly rad, I wish you the best for a legion of Angry Scouts.

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    No, I don't think so. Reivers are melee and terror specialists at the end of the day. On the other hand, Scouts are stealth specialists who chiefly wield ranged weapons. Codex-wise, they don't line up. Not to mention the fact that Guilliman despised the similar 22nd Chapter of the Ultramarines back in the day.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 22:54:20


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    Scouts represent an important part of marine creation, specifically the implantation of human recruits with the marine organs, resculping of their bodies with hormones and inculcating the recruits in the chapter ethos.

    We're told that the only difference between a normal marine and a Primaris marine is the addition of two extra organs, so there is nothing to suggest these new recruits wouldn't require the same acclimatisation and education process. I think Chapters would also be reluctant to change their recruitment process wholesale, the Primaris let out of cold storage from a time when these processes didn't exist is in fact a major point of tension in the lore.

    In addition, the huge stocks of stable geneseed made available to chapters by Cawl and Guilliman should have increased by recruitment and implantation success rates. So there should actually be more scouts now than in previous centuries!

    As to whether the GW commercial department with obsolete the scout model range, I don't think that is a topic for the background forum
       
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    Well looks like I was on the right track with this one then lol
       
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    And with that the full spectrum of OldMarine roles has been filled with Primaris.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oldmarines will be squatted come 9th edition (in whatever form that comes).

    +++++There are currently EIGHTY EIGHT (88) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
    Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
    Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
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     BaconCatBug wrote:
    And with that the full spectrum of OldMarine roles has been filled with Primaris.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oldmarines will be squatted come 9th edition (in whatever form that comes).

    Y'know, all for except

    *Assault Terminators
    *Assault Marines
    *Sternguard Veterans
    *Vanguard Veterans
    *Deathwing Knights
    *Tactical Terminators
    *Company Veterans
    *Tactical Marines
    *Bikers
    *Land Speeders


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     Wyzilla wrote:
     BaconCatBug wrote:
    And with that the full spectrum of OldMarine roles has been filled with Primaris.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oldmarines will be squatted come 9th edition (in whatever form that comes).

    Y'know, all for except

    *Assault Terminators
    *Assault Marines
    *Sternguard Veterans
    *Vanguard Veterans
    *Deathwing Knights
    *Tactical Terminators
    *Company Veterans
    *Tactical Marines
    *Bikers
    *Land Speeders



    add to that

    Vengeance
    Dark shroud
    Flyers
    Transports
    tanks
    dreads

    Primaris are missing a massive amount of stuff.

       
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     buddha wrote:
    Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.


    Wolf Scouts better be worried then...



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    It certainly looks like they will replace the classic scout battle field roles. The recruitment part seems a grey area at the minute.
       
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    Looks like reivers themselves have been replaced by even more tacticool reivers mk2
       
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    Andykp wrote:
    It certainly looks like they will replace the classic scout battle field roles. The recruitment part seems a grey area at the minute.


    The thing with the recruitment is the specific primaris implants. When not implanted when the other implants are it is seen as dangerous like with Calgary.

    This means that any new primaris recruits already seem to have skipped the scout stage of sorts.

    I assume they learn all the skills in training whilst the body grows and graduate straight to the primaris role they are given.
       
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    Scotland

    Oh my. Yeah, those Eliminators remind me strongly of the FW HH Recon Squads the legions would have used, I guess the G-Man is bringing a few more units forward. I would love to see the 40k Primaris version of a destroyer squad. I guess Inceptors are actually modernised, non-psychotic moritats as well. The Victrix Guards are a lot like the Ultramarine Suzerain squad. Turns out 40k 9th will actually be 30k with AoS rules. Who knew.


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