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*Edit*

Link to NotOnline's WIP of the codex based in IA13:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcc4vkayr2s9h2y/Renegades%20and%20Heretics%20IA13%20Update..pdf?dl=0

Some folks were discussing making suggestions to the rules team and/or writing a homebrew codex that isn’t utter dog so I figured I’d go ahead and create a thread for it so as to not derail the tactics thread.

If the thread already exists, please ignore this one.

Here are some of my thoughts, which are by no means original:

1.) I really see no good reason the R&H army list should be so restricted. A ramshackle band of mutants is but one option for a R&H list, or one aspect of it. There’s no reason to exclude Stormhammers, Shadowswords, Vendettas, etc. Things like ministorum priests and crusaders obviously don’t belong, which is where you substitute those for chaos versions that need not be identical.

2.) Orders. WTH, FW? Sorry, in their current and previous iterations, covenants were no substitute for orders. +1S on the charge is just not as worthwhile as say, +1S all the time (Catachans) PLUS orders. If there is a command structure, there are officers giving orders. Perhaps units like mutants couldn’t be easily ordered around, so the flavorful chaos stuff would shake up the army and play more traditionally like R&H.

2A.) I guess the potential “danger” is that R&H list gets most of the Guard stuff AND the unique flavorful chaos stuff, but I honestly don’t have a problem with that. FW has this (I’m pretty sure overtly stated) philosophy that R&H just should not be a very good army. This could be hearsay, but it’s certainly borne out by the army list (which could just coincidentally be terrible, given the minimal effort put into it etc.). The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

3.) The army would lose the characters and regimental traits that are a huge part of what make standard IG good. No Pask, no Harken, none of them. No Vengeance for Cadia, no Laurels of Command... you see where I’m going with this. These would all be replaced with chaos-themed stuff, to some degree. The 6th edition army list had awesome options, like the Ordnance trait that let you bombard targets along with your own units while they were engaged in combat - THAT is chaos!

4.) Relics and Stratagems: Should need no explanation. Any army without them blows.

5.) We don’t truly need every unit, in fairness. It could depend on the army list. Maybe let the covenants or warlord specialization determine the list. Or as an alternative, the way other armies have chapters or regiments, the R&H could have lists within a list. We can call them creeds, or something. They shouldn’t be too restrictive, just enough to give some flavor while preventing broken nonsense.

6.) I would love to get past the idea that Renegades are only one thing. For example, Renegades devoted to Khorne are just poor imitations of berzerkers, foregoing ranged firepower and tactics for the frothing horde approach for some pittance of a bonus in close combat. We’ve already seen examples with more creativity and nuance in the background fiction, such as the Blood Pact. Bloodthirsty madmen, sure, but not totally one dimensional.

I don’t know, that’s all I’ve got for now, I’ll think on this some more, but I’d love to hear from others, including those that are planning to put in the work to writing proper codices.

Since i am atm doing one, and potentially will post a PDF sometime later, i will try to start with the general idea of what i am doing and which approach i took.

The idea was to update the IA13 book into 8th edition, at this point there is no denying that the FW index did nothing for renegades except hurt the army.

________________________________________________

As for the suggestions allready:

1.) Restrictions are not inherently a bad thing, if done correctly. Imo a better acess to malcadors and machariuses would be a nice compensation aswell as daemon engines, if the correct arch demagogue is picked.

2.) Personally orders should be AM specific, however the covenant is no Order replacer that is true.

2.A) Again, IA 13 did show that it is and was possible to represent everything from propper traitor guardsmen to any other potential variety.

3.) Allready planning on covering this one, i will try and adapt the arch demagogic devotions. Aswell as creating further minescule charachters.

4.) ATM i am only really working on making the base list, Stratagems i have some ideas but to propperly get a view how somethings effect them i'd need more playtesters. (i have done 70 matches with the 8th index list, core issues are more along the line that we pay a hefty spike tax of 25% atleast in most cases, getting rid of that and reintroducing units that we lost in the transition is allready a improvement.)

5.) Reintroducing the old arch demagogic systems, (grenadiers only for Bloddy handed, plague zombies only if your demagogue is nurgle etc.) is solving that issue instantly.

6.) Khorne is the god of bloodshed, Khorne covenant should increase general performance in battle not just stabbing. That i agree with.

_________________________________________________

Issues i have sofar with rewriting the IA13 book:

A.) warlord traits, some of them need an propper adaption and depending on how i write the Demagogue specialisations i need reworks, PM if you have any idea.

B.) I am toying around with the idea to deny R&H army traits and instead go with 3 doctrines which replace them:

1. Would be "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, up to 2 times against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s.
Additionally only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples,etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)


2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automarically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any greanade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a greanade can be thrown rounding down.
Vehicles that charge a enemy unit generate d3 autohits. If the charged unit is bigger then 10 models it generates 2d3 autohits additionally. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".

3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assult profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.


C.) Two demagogic Traits give me a headache. Master of the horde beeing chief amongst them. Basically i want to keep the Replacement units but i also don't want to make it easily abusable to just swamp the enemy with militia units. Basically my idea sofar is that only milita can be brought back, that the militia can not be upgraded with militia training and needs to alteast number 20 per squad in order to be brought back. Also i am intending for militia squads only to be able to be brought back once, and only if the militia unit is not completely wiped. This is to allow counterplay.

The other arch demagogic devotion is the mutant overlord. Problematic there is the roll on the mutation chart, it seems to random.
I however consider for a stratagem specific to the Mutant overlord that for 1cp he can predetermine the mutation roll for a mutant rabble. So basically he allows you to pick the mutation you get for Mutant Rabble, Big mutants (upgraded ogryn berserkers, and command squads of him)

_________________________________________________

This is what i got sofar:

Further diversing Command squad disciples from regular disciples. Command squad disciples remain 6ppm however a Demagogue can never be targeted when within 3" of a command squad. Additionally it will be stronger influenced by the Arch demagogic choice. (mutant overlord gives them the mutation table, Blody handed reaver, will grant them hotshot guns, Primaris rogue which allows for rogue psyker beeing added to the squad.)

Disciples drop to 5ppm.

Renegade infantry veterans are a troop choice, they got the same stats as before and are 5ppm.

Militia squad:10-20 (up to 30 for Master of the horde)
3ppm. Gain a 5+ SV.
Reintroduce Militatraining (not for master of the horde) for 1WS BS improvement for a flat cost of 10 ppm.
(This was in the 7th edition book and incentiviced to not just spam MSU hordes since you could get bulk discounts)
This also gives them guardsmen stats (well except the random Leadership) and makes them cost either 4ppm for a 10 man squad or 3.5ppm for a 20 man squad.
Additionally: 1/10 can get a special weapon and 1/10 can get a heavy weapon. (It made zero sense that Fw allowed us in the index to give Militia potentially 4 plasma guns and 2 autocannons, it would also present an issue if milita training is back, therefore i feel like lowering the ammount of special weaponry is a good idea)

All good ideas IMHO, but it have a few small suggestions as well.

1. Errata R&H so that each unit receives the faction keyword of w/e god they serve so that something like Plague Ogryn can be useful.

2. In line with restrictions already restricted, armies aligned with Nurgle should be allowed access to Death Guard units.

3. Incorporate some of the units from the Black Fortress into the R&H like chaos Beastmen and Traitor Guard which just scream Renegade.

4. Maybe update the Renegade Militia so they have better saves. My thinking here is that just because they are Chaos doesn't mean they don't necessarily have guard training. An alternative would be to have Traitor Guard introduced as a step-between the Militia and the Disciples similar to the structure of IG (Conscript/Infantry/Elite).

5. Return Apostate Preachers to the codex.

'Stealer cult list is a good example. You can take anything in an allied IG detachment but don't get its regimental trait.

In short if you are adding stuff you are also taking stuff away.

For getting everything what do you lose?

You could do a renegade regiment just using a Chaosie regimental rule and having 'special' characters.

If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

The_Real_Chris wrote:


If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
All good ideas IMHO, but it have a few small suggestions as well.

1. Errata R&H so that each unit receives the faction keyword of w/e god they serve so that something like Plague Ogryn can be useful.

2. In line with restrictions already restricted, armies aligned with Nurgle should be allowed access to Death Guard units.

3. Incorporate some of the units from the Black Fortress into the R&H like chaos Beastmen and Traitor Guard which just scream Renegade.

4. Maybe update the Renegade Militia so they have better saves. My thinking here is that just because they are Chaos doesn't mean they don't necessarily have guard training. An alternative would be to have Traitor Guard introduced as a step-between the Militia and the Disciples similar to the structure of IG (Conscript/Infantry/Elite).

5. Return Apostate Preachers to the codex.

_______________________________________________

1.) I'd be more for the IA13 approach of allwoing to mix covenants for a buff to a unit that bought them for points. But adding the mark (nurgle for covenanted units) would ertainly be a good thing.

2.) No. Infact i don't want the R&H index to just be abused for a CP crutch. Basically i think if we would allow such crossover the Renegades would lose all army traits and could not get a arch demagogic option. (this is to prevent malefic lord + Brimstone cancer situations.)

3.) Traitor guardsmen are incorporated via the adaptable milita, want them to be IG level, take the blody handed reaver and buy the upgrades in question, that are unlocked via your demagogue option

4..) allready did. 3ppm baseline with a 5+ save is now standard before you buy militia training. This is adapted out of IA 13 where militia units were also 3 pts but 2 pts cheaper then guardsmen but had to buy armor and better stats. The armor is now incororporated since IG squads and conscripts both have the 5+ save allready, therefore i decided that the 5+ save is now standard.

5.) were not in IA13, but a chaotic priest elite charachter seems like something that should be considered, maybee a significant boost to Morale / frightening enemy models? Alternatively just taking over the AM priest 1:1 for the same points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
'Stealer cult list is a good example. You can take anything in an allied IG detachment but don't get its regimental trait.

In short if you are adding stuff you are also taking stuff away.

For getting everything what do you lose?

You could do a renegade regiment just using a Chaosie regimental rule and having 'special' characters.

If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

The baseline again i intend to use is the IA13. That means that there is significant corssover in the vehicle department, allbeit restricted to the simpler vehicles and or older more unreliable ones, like malcadors.

Secondly the demagogue options allow you to get a traitor guard equivalent in the IA13 book aswell as many other sidegrades.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.

Nope that is not the case.

After looking at the IA13, I can sadly say those books have gone down the crapper in terms of quality.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
After looking at the IA13, I can sadly say those books have gone down the crapper in terms of quality.

The Index for 8th?

yep, absofrigging lutely.

They looked so nice and gave a little fluff as well as some pictures, now they are just so bland and tell you barely anything aside frome the rules...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
They looked so nice and gave a little fluff as well as some pictures, now they are just so bland and tell you barely anything aside frome the rules...

TBF, the R&H list is asthethically something of the worst in that book.
You should've seen the entry on Decimators.

I think certain warlord doctrines/whatever could unlock more guard options and perhaps restrict the more extreme chaosy ones.

Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?

*Currently* what we gain for what we don't have access to is very little. I'd much rather just be able to use some regiment-less, Imperial-less IG list out of the codex. Which is probably what I will do if my friends are down to play against it alongside my World Eaters.

But I digress. There could also be restrictions, because the lack of resupply and maintenance of the most sophisticated units (whatever those are) could be a reason for a unit to be 0-1 in a detachment. Stormhammers, for example, could fit that criteria. Or Manticores or whatever.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.

Ok... so what do they lose by doing so? if they become simply 'better guard' the imperials would have lost a long time ago. Whilst its nice to think I can have shadowswords covering my greater demon advance, why is it not that simple? Chaos defection seems to affect command and control and logistics. They get a new version of the former and very little of the latter. That affects both the officer and order system and the sort of armour you can maintain.

If it gets everything but more what is your answer to how?

Note you can always take Guard allies and just not get their regiment trait, so that covers the more exotic bits of kit. What is your main army trying to achieve in terms of theme and playstyle? What can't it achieve by being an IG army with a different paint scheme and some conversions?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I think certain warlord doctrines/whatever could unlock more guard options and perhaps restrict the more extreme chaosy ones.

Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?

*Currently* what we gain for what we don't have access to is very little. I'd much rather just be able to use some regiment-less, Imperial-less IG list out of the codex. Which is probably what I will do if my friends are down to play against it alongside my World Eaters.

But I digress. There could also be restrictions, because the lack of resupply and maintenance of the most sophisticated units (whatever those are) could be a reason for a unit to be 0-1 in a detachment. Stormhammers, for example, could fit that criteria. Or Manticores or whatever.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Actually i think the following could apply:

Vendettas are a no go for R&H. Was so and should be so.

Valkyires should be available for Blody handead reavers and Heretek magos.

Arch heretic revolutionary and Mutant overlord should be able to expand their bonuses like curse of mutation and fanatic.

Master of the horde should get a limit on heavy support and militia training: No leman russ / basilisk sqauadrons, instead a limit of 1 per 1 Militia squad.

Rogue psyker covens should be 0-1 for non Primaris rogue witch arch demagogues. Additionally the malefic lord should be restricted to the primaris rogue whitch warlord.

I guess that would solve some issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?

Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.

Ok... so what do they lose by doing so? if they become simply 'better guard' the imperials would have lost a long time ago. Whilst its nice to think I can have shadowswords covering my greater demon advance, why is it not that simple? Chaos defection seems to affect command and control and logistics. They get a new version of the former and very little of the latter. That affects both the officer and order system and the sort of armour you can maintain.

If it gets everything but more what is your answer to how?

No.

Again R&H was restricted, no vendettas f.e. no special baneblade variants, etc. NO ORDERS, f.e. in game turns however that meant that R&H had access to daemon engines like decimators or defilers depending on your Arch demagogic devotion.

i PM'd you with the IA13 list.

What exactly is a demagogue? I'm unfamiliar with this terminology

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What exactly is a demagogue? I'm unfamiliar with this terminology

The head honcho, stuck in the command squad.

Edit: since this is a older edition he was in the command squad just like the Imperial Guard HQ was a command squad, unlike their IG counterpart though he could be split off and added to another unit if you so desired.

Ofcourse beeing now we are trying to update the list to 8th edition standarts we would need to split him off the command squad, which allready happened in the FW index.

I agree on the gunships, those are too specialized and should be excluded as well as the Baneblade variants (lore-wise I would suspect that more specialized equipment would require more investment in training which would give officials more time to weed out those susceptible to Chaotic influence). For the Nurgle covenent, the Zombies could be equated to poxwalkers.

How would you expand the curse of mutations for the mutant overlord though? And how would you update the bloody-handed weaver warlord since the militias already have a 5+ save?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I agree on the gunships, those are too specialized and should be excluded as well as the Baneblade variants (lore-wise I would suspect that more specialized equipment would require more investment in training which would give officials more time to weed out those susceptible to Chaotic influence). For the Nurgle covenent, the Zombies could be equated to poxwalkers.

How would you expand the curse of mutations for the mutant overlord though? And how would you update the bloody-handed weaver warlord since the militias already have a 5+ save?

Fairly easily:
Blody handead Reaver get's a discount on militia training. He is anaywas forced to take it on all units he get's, so instead of the regular 10ppm the others pay he pays 5, he will also potentially get some mini charachter unlock like the whitch will gain the malefic lord.

Curse of mutation was 10ppm for ogryns. Expand it for 10ppm torwards Dicsiples, the ones that show true dedication to the mutant overlord.

Edit: i don't like poxwalkers and rather would let the 0-1 restriction in place whilest taking over the plague zombie entry. Remember they have a 4+FNP and can not be forced to do any morale checks, they will also get M4.

Edit 2: Renegade Grenadiers, the upgrade for veterans is for Blody handed reaver only and that is more then enough in conjunction with the discount on militia training for the blody handed reaver.

Would we expand the covenent of Nurgle to just be a flat 5+ FNP instead of having to be only against an attack of Str 4 or less?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Would we expand the covenent of Nurgle to just be a flat 5+ FNP instead of having to be only against an attack of Str 4 or less?

TBF, you payed a flat 15 pts for a covenant . I'd say you should get a 6+ against all wounds, however it would need to be cheaper then.

What would you think if we would split the covenants into differing prices tho?

say 10pts for a covenant of nurgle, gain a 6+fnp?

etc.?

I would also add to that, that if you pay for a covenant of nurgle for a squad aswell as for the heretek magos 10ppm upgrade (he can also give out 6+fnp's) you should be allowed to combine that into a 5+fnp.
Best case scneario would then be a ws /bs 5+ militia squad / mutant rabble with a 5+ fnp. which would be 4ppm.

Remeber you would not be bound into any covenant if we would handle it like IA13.

Wait, wouldn't Covenants be the R&H Legion Traits equivalent? So instead of buying them you just pick a <COVENANT> and get its bonuses for the units that have the keyword.

I guess, but I would be more likely to choose one covenant. I know that's stupid, but I feel like realistically an army with multiple allegiances wouldn't fight well together. Plus I always try to have a unifying theme which in the case of R&H would be its diety.

Personally i would favor sticking with the one covenant per army and consider that to just be free.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Wait, wouldn't Covenants be the R&H Legion Traits equivalent? So instead of buying them you just pick a <COVENANT> and get its bonuses for the units that have the keyword.

No, they are now but are absolute utter trash.
They were never intended for it, not to mention that non mono god r&h can go hike of a cliff now.

The arch demagogue devotions were army traits.
The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.

Not Online!!! wrote:


No, they are now but are absolute utter trash.
They were never intended for it, not to mention that non mono god r&h can go hike of a cliff .

I'm confused now, do you or do you not favor one-god armies?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


No, they are now but are absolute utter trash.
They were never intended for it, not to mention that non mono god r&h can go hike of a cliff .

I'm confused now, do you or do you not favor one-god armies?

I do not favour hardlocks.

If you want monogod armies buy the covenants upgrades for the god you want.

If you want to mix / like most renegades and heretics are then you should also be able to do that.

That is why i fundamentaly opose the covenants as army traits.
Additionally consider that since you pay pts for covenants you will get better effects off of them.
Take a gander at the covenants in the IA13 list . The effects will be these.

I understand, I just have a hard time imaging the forces of rival gods working together without trying to kill one another.

Not Online!!! wrote:
[
The arch demagogue devotions were army traits.
The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.

Ah, yes, I did not remember the distinction well. So then: <DEVOTION> for Army Trait, and Covenant for the HQ. The former gives the usual bonuses for the units, the latter unlocks additional options for the character and/or the army, like big infantry blobs or super-strong psychic abilities.

In this case, I don't think that Covenants need to cost anything. They are attached to a rather crappy HQ anyway, so they might as well make that HQ worth something.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
[
The arch demagogue devotions were army traits.
The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.

Ah, yes, I did not remember the distinction well. So then: <DEVOTION> for Army Trait, and Covenant for the HQ. The former gives the usual bonuses for the units, the latter unlocks additional options for the character and/or the army, like big infantry blobs or super-strong psychic abilities.

In this case, I don't think that Covenants need to cost anything. They are attached to a rather crappy HQ anyway, so they might as well make that HQ worth something.

....
Covenant will be bought like a piece of equipment.
Just like militia training will be bought like a piece of equipment.
It will have the effect of the Covenants in IA13, albeit adapted.

The covenant bought for the Archdemagogue will also affect the command squad.

That Arch demagogue devotions are basically half the part of what i intend to have for army distinctions of subfactions:

The Other part would be the following 3 doctrines, these would be the army traits and are:

1. Would be "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, up to 2 times against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s.
Additionally only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples,etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)


2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automarically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any greanade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a greanade can be thrown rounding down.
Vehicles that charge a enemy unit generate d3 autohits. If the charged unit is bigger then 10 models it generates 2d3 autohits additionally. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".

3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assult profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.



For these i need feedback, preferably alot of feedback. I also tried to go a route which allows you to show that you are vraksian renegades which have dug in f.e. A violent mob preached into fanaticism that is now rioting, etc. However with some drawbacks.


The demagogue devotions would be as they are now in IA13, a point costed upgrade that has a effect not only on the Demagogue himself but also on how you run the army what acess you get to specific units like renegade grenadiers, big mutants, Decimators and defilers etc.
The demagogue will also pay the same ammount for a covenant as whole units do, this is to balance out the access to special units and or slot moved units.

For the warlord/demagogue, should we do the thing where he is deployed as part of a command squad but acts as his own unit?

Further diversing Command squad disciples from regular disciples. Command squad disciples remain 6ppm however a Demagogue can never be targeted when within 3" of a command squad. Additionally it will be stronger influenced by the Arch demagogic choice. (mutant overlord gives them the mutation table, Blody handed reaver, will grant them hotshot guns, Primaris rogue which allows for rogue psyker beeing added to the squad.)

I'd like to add to that that command squads are dependant 0-1 per demagogue.
Basically they get to be a cheap bodyguard unit, profit from the demagogue and his devotion.
Also 1 ppm more expensive and more restricted then regular disciples.

What do "slow and purposeful" and "bulky" translate to?