Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm curious to know, what's more important to folks in a miniature wargame. For the purposes of this poll, each side indicates the following as listed below (feel free to expand or debate). Go with your gut reaction, and feel free to elaborate on your choice. Be polite please; there's no right or wrong answer, just what people are really interested in. Don't worry what you feel any given game's ratio is - tell me what YOUR interested in. And of course, this isn't limited purely to 40K/AoS.


The game (substance) - tactics, listbuilding based on unit quality, balanced interactions and overall game balance, strongly defined rules, terrain interactions with units/rules

The miniatures (style) - cool looking models, painted figures, listbuilding based on lore and/or looks, painted/model terrain appearance

Miniatures wargames are sold overwhelmingly on the miniatures. How else could 40k be the dominant wargame across the world?

I went 50-50% as I feel that a good balanced game and miniatures you like are equally important.

I couldn't see myself playing a broken game even if the miniatures for it were my favourite in the world. I may pick some up for use in other games but I wouldn't touch the game they belong to.
Likewise I wouldn't play a game if the miniatures for it didn't interest me.

Then there's the case of games like Gaslands where the wargame is only the rules and you source your own models or in this case diecast cars. I still consider this a 50-50% even tho they don't supply a model line because I still get my enjoyment from both the game and the modelling. Plus I like destroying hot wheels cars.

I buy miniatures. Sometimes I buy a game if it comes with the miniatures. Game mechanics mean almost nothing to me.

There's a certain threshold that the miniatures have to be above and the game mechanics need to be at least "good enough" but one important thing your poll misses is availability of games. That's why 40k is so popular. I've dabbled in a few games that I'd love to play more of but ultimately nobody else in the area was interested so I ended up defaulting back to games like 40k that are actually played.

After giving it some thought, I realized I'm pretty much an exact 50/50 split on this issue. If the models don't do anything for me, I basically can't be sold on it no matter how good the game is. But, I quit 40k precisely because I could not make it functional (or fun) as a game, no matter how good the minis were.

If the miniatures don't appeal, the rules won't mean squat to me anyway.

90% miniatures, 10% rules. Even 40k had this and I gave up on it almost 6 years ago now.

I have to agree with above that its three core elements
1) Miniature quality and style

2) Rules quality and style

3) Chance of actually getting to play the game.

A failure in any one of those three is going to run a high risk of not being something I want to collect. Of course one can always just collect miniatures so miniature quality can, on its own, top out and the others can fail.

Warhammer has two of the three very strong for it - chance of games and miniature quality and style. Rules quality isn't as strong, but its pulled along by the other two and, in all honesty, GW are improving steadily on the rules front.

A good game with poor miniatures will struggle but a poor game with good miniatures does better.




Miniatures > everything else

I'd say about 60/40. If the rules suck, the game isn't any fun!

One of my favorite games are the duo of AT-43 and Confrontation:Age of Ragnorok, which had prepainted minis that made some portions of the community absolutely bat-gak crazy at how they dropped in quality from the previous incarnations of Confrontation metal figs. But the two games (I lump them both in as they share a core rules engine) are pretty fun!

Also lots of people don't like Mantic figures, but the Kings of War ruleset is tight and well-made.

I find myself unable to pick an option the way the poll is presented. For me it's not as simple as weighing one against the other when realistically each element (models, rules, setting, availability) has a threshold of minimum quality and each element needs to be above that threshold or else the game in its entirety is of no use to me.

Which is not to say that I won't have an interest in the models if the rules are trash, which is Warhammer for me at the moment. But no matter how great the models may be, they'll be a purchase (if I buy them at all, of course) solely for the purpose of painting or converting because the I won't touch the game they're meant for. The opposite is true, too. I don't have the slightest idea of the quality or rules of Warmachine, present or past, because the style of the models is so far removed from what I like that looking into the game is rendered completely pointless.

Generally I put the greatest emphasis on models (since I also derive great joy from the modeling aspect, perhaps more than the games) and will tolerate dodgy rules to an extent. But only to an extent.

It's a bit biased in the forum, as Dakka is more a miniatures forum. I'd imagine in a more board-game-oriented forum you'd get people more interested in the rules than the models.

I don't get much time to play the games so I prefer the games to be good. That said, I'm also happy to play crap games if they are fun.

The miniatures are sort of important, but I can have just as much fun with counters or grey armies. I've got separate miniatures for painting/hobby.

I would love to say 50% or more based on substance, but I would be lying to myself. It is probably more like 20% substance and 80% style. Despite this, I have been leaning more to "Generic" rulesets so I can use what I have sitting around.



Edit: As for "Getting in a Game" that is the last thing I worry about. I typically try to get two factions when I buy-in so I can play it forever, even if the game "dies". Plus, with using more "generics" it doesn't matter as much.

80% painting hobby

20% actual rules/gaming

This reflects the real time I spend painting vs my few games a month.

In terms of Dungeons and Dragons, it may be 80% gaming and 20% models / tileset

 Geifer wrote:
I find myself unable to pick an option the way the poll is presented. For me it's not as simple as weighing one against the other when realistically each element (models, rules, setting, availability) has a threshold of minimum quality and each element needs to be above that threshold or else the game in its entirety is of no use to me.

Very much this.

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a bit biased in the forum, as Dakka is more a miniatures forum. I'd imagine in a more board-game-oriented forum you'd get people more interested in the rules than the models.

True, but they they wouldn't be playing miniatures wargames per the topic.

Instead, they'd be playing traditional boardgames with punched tokens, counters and chits - no pawns or meeples allowed!

Even if you look at miniatures boardgames (Zombicide), miniatures quality matters at least half. For a miniatures boardgame like Kingdom Death : Monster, it's back to 80% or higher (although KD:M is also very good rules-wise, hence the viability of the game as a long-term campaign system). As a category, miniatures boardgames are the fastest-growing segment for quite a while, getting ALL of the big money on Kickstarter.

Besides, what the BGG crowd actually dislikes is miniatures assembly, especially tedious work like we had with GW multi-pose miniatures. Hell, I'm staring down the need to build 60-90 multipose Empire infantry, and avoiding that like the plague, so I totally get that. Give them a nice pre-assembled mini (e.g. Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Gen product) or mono-pose (e.g. Zombicide), and they're totally happy with that. Me, too, which is why I spent the past month-plus getting my metal minis together.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a bit biased in the forum, as Dakka is more a miniatures forum. I'd imagine in a more board-game-oriented forum you'd get people more interested in the rules than the models.

True, but they they wouldn't be playing miniatures wargames per the topic.

Instead, they'd be playing traditional boardgames with punched tokens, counters and chits - no pawns or meeples allowed!

Even if you look at miniatures boardgames (Zombicide), miniatures quality matters at least half. For a miniatures boardgame like Kingdom Death : Monster, it's back to 80% or higher (although KD:M is also very good rules-wise, hence the viability of the game as a long-term campaign system). As a category, miniatures boardgames are the fastest-growing segment for quite a while, getting ALL of the big money on Kickstarter.

Besides, what the BGG crowd actually dislikes is miniatures assembly, especially tedious work like we had with GW multi-pose miniatures. Hell, I'm staring down the need to build 60-90 multipose Empire infantry, and avoiding that like the plague, so I totally get that. Give them a nice pre-assembled mini (e.g. Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Gen product) or mono-pose (e.g. Zombicide), and they're totally happy with that. Me, too, which is why I spent the past month-plus getting my metal minis together.

Hey now, reading is hard. How am I supposed to let those facts get in the way of my opinion?

Just the game for me. If it isn't fun to play, it doesn't matter what the minis look like.

 Easy E wrote:
I would love to say 50% or more based on substance, but I would be lying to myself. It is probably more like 20% substance and 80% style. Despite this, I have been leaning more to "Generic" rulesets so I can use what I have sitting around.



Edit: As for "Getting in a Game" that is the last thing I worry about. I typically try to get two factions when I buy-in so I can play it forever, even if the game "dies". Plus, with using more "generics" it doesn't matter as much.

This is similar to how I feel. I bought into Gangfight and, depending on the co-op options (and sexiness of fluff and art), maybe Zone raiders so that I could learn just one generic ruleset for all my miniatures and never have to bother learning a new set of rules again. I don't mind playing other games with people who already know the rules and can walk me through them (or show a good video, I guess), but reading rules is a chore more than a hobby for me.

I also have to supply both or all sides of a game and explain the rules if I want to play it with family members or friends who aren't gamers. This may have shaped my opinion on learning rulesets.

Like others have said, the poll seems a little biased since this is a miniature wargaming forum, so most of us are here because we want to push toy soldiers around on the tabletop.

That said, I put myself as 80% rules, 20% miniatures. I can't really think of any times where I've seen a miniature and bought into a game just to use it. I have read about or played plenty of rulesets that have then led me to purchasing, or consider purchasing, miniatures to keep playing.

This is probably also why I enjoy playing hex-and-counter or block wargames.

 infinite_array wrote:
Like others have said, the poll seems a little biased since this is a miniature wargaming forum, so most of us are here because we want to push toy soldiers around on the tabletop.

That said, I put myself as 80% rules, 20% miniatures. I can't really think of any times where I've seen a miniature and bought into a game just to use it. I have read about or played plenty of rulesets that have then led me to purchasing, or consider purchasing, miniatures to keep playing.

This is probably also why I enjoy playing hex-and-counter or block wargames.

HERETIC!!!

BURN THE HERETIC!!

CLEANSE HIM WITH FIRE!!!!!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

HERETIC!!!

BURN THE HERETIC!!

CLEANSE HIM WITH FIRE!!!!!

I'm planning to run a Longstreet campaign using 6mm paper miniatures.



I'm a public menace that needs to be stopped!

paper miniatures.

I just threw up.

Might as well be drawing marks in a grid.

Depends on the scale and the game type

with a 2mm scale rank & file game, I won't care about miniatures at all (and paper minis are perfect here)
for a 54mm 5 model Skirmish game, miniatures are everything

I expected with this site (and the large painting forum) that things would skew towards the style side, but I have been surprised before - especially with a lot of the grousing in some of the subforums (and the existence of the proposed rules forum...).

Also, while I did say "miniatures wargame", I wouldn't count out other games including board games that use miniatures.

Finally, I've purposely left out availability. This poll isn't tied to any one specific game, but whether folks are more interested in the mini side or the game side of the equation.

As before, I'm just curious where folks here lean in the overall scheme of things.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
paper miniatures.

I just threw up.

Might as well be drawing marks in a grid.

aka "standees".

It's OK, dude thinks a painting is a statue.

I voted 30% Game, 70% miniatures. I design games as a hobby/past time and I am always willing to tinker with any rules set....so it's really less important. A great rule set is still fantastic, but I can use X miniatures for whatever rules I want - and failing that, I make up my own. I can't sculpt feth all...so I have to depend on other people for the pretty dollies.

Fixing rules is always fun and often very easy.

I'm like 70% models, 20% rules, and 10% complaining on Dakka.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm like 70% models, 20% rules, and 10% complaining on Dakka.

Well, if we're taking "overreacting on Dakka" into account, then miniatures are only ~20% for me.