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So, per the fluff, their specialty is Close Combat. There aren't any berzerkers in loyalist chapters, so what do you use? Is it all Tactical Marines with Bolters and Chainswords? Are Elites mainly TH/SS Terminators? Do they really use any ranged marines at all? Seems like they are the Loyalist version of World Eaters without the troops available to do the same type of close combat damage.

Any of you Black Templars players out there, please let me know which models you use for your army.

Thanks

SG

They use bolt guns and heavy weapons like any other marines. At least if you find the classic john blanche artwork inspiring. Later fluff gives more praise to chainswords rushing up the field. They are what you make them really. Mine are armed like any other classic marine force

Traditionally, Black Templars take Crusader Squads rather than Tactical Squads, and that is where you get you CC options.

They are pretty big on melee and the like, but they are still space marines which means they are not stupid. They will employ the use of firepower and heavy weapons when the situation demands.

 BlackLobster wrote:
Traditionally, Black Templars take Crusader Squads rather than Tactical Squads, and that is where you get you CC options.

Where exactly do these "Crusader Squads" come from. From the picture in the Space Marine codex, it looks like a mixture of Scouts, Tac Marines, and Sternguard. I can't find any specific information on the models used, armor used (which would help identify the models). Any help would be appreciated.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Traditionally, Black Templars take Crusader Squads rather than Tactical Squads, and that is where you get you CC options.

Where exactly do these "Crusader Squads" come from. From the picture in the Space Marine codex, it looks like a mixture of Ccouts, Tac Marines, and Sternguard. I can't find any specific information on the models used, armor used (which would help identify the models). Any help would be appreciated.

SG

There's a Black Templars Chapter Upgrade kit ("This box set contains two sets of sixty-eight plastic components for upgrading any multi-part plastic Space Marine squad to a squad of Black Templars, and one set of ten plastic components for upgrading any multi-part plastic Space Marine tank or Dreadnought to a Black Templars tank or Dreadnought.") and some people use 30k bits such as the Imperial Fists Legion Templar Brethren.

To make a melee Crusader Squad, you need at minimum an Assault Squad box and a Scout box. For a shooty one, you'll need a Tactical/Sternguard Squad box instead of the Assault Squad.

There is no Crusader Squad box.

Ideally you'd also have the BT upgrade sprue, but that isn't strictly necessary.

beast_gts wrote:
There's a Black Templars Chapter Upgrade kit ("This box set contains two sets of sixty-eight plastic components for upgrading any multi-part plastic Space Marine squad to a squad of Black Templars, and one set of ten plastic components for upgrading any multi-part plastic Space Marine tank or Dreadnought to a Black Templars tank or Dreadnought.") and some people use 30k bits such as the Imperial Fists Legion Templar Brethren.

Thanks! It seems that Black Templars are extremely expensive to put together... probably too much for my wallet at the moment. But, again, thank you for the info!

SG

Black Templars also have ... basically a better version of a psycher's Deny Test as a 1 CP strategem. If you weren't playing a Librarian to begin with that can be pretty handy. I had a 500pt game where denying Catalyst with that strat was the only thing keeping me in front of Genestealer Recursion, but it doesn't scale well at all.

On the cost issue, Templars would be more expensive than regular marines, but probably not by that much. Scouts are pretty cheap. Assault marines are not, but you could build Vanguards with the jump packs and have a lot of chainswords left over for building Crusader squads. It's not really different from needing to buy a tac squad or two to take advantage of all the heavy weapons in a Devestator box.

The Newman wrote:
Black Templars also have ... basically a better version of a psycher's Deny Test as a 1 CP strategem. If you weren't playing a Librarian to begin with that can be pretty handy. I had a 500pt game where denying Catalyst with that strat was the only thing keeping me in front of Genestealer Recursion, but it doesn't scale well at all.

Maybe I didn't read what you had written correctly (which honestly could be the case), but per the fluff, Black Templars don't use Librarians in battle at all:

By their doctrine, the Black Templars abhor the traitor, the alien and the mutant. The last category includes psykers, with the result that the Black Templars are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that exclude Librarians, seeing them as a potential source of corruption in the midst of battle. However, Black Templars do use psykers in other non-combatant roles, such as Astropaths and Navigators. Black Templars view these beings with special reverence as they see them as able to commune directly with the Emperor.

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, question... how do you use Primaris marines in Black Templars? The armored arms on the upgrade kit would be too small for the Primaris armor. So, do you just use transfers or 3D printed shoulder pads?

SG

Primaris arms are actually pretty close.

That said, you don't the upgrade sprues to field BTs. You can just paint them BT colours.

I have played Black Templar for ... um... decades.

They are from the Imperial Fists, with Sigismund who was the first "Emperor's Champion" known for facing enemy leaders in one on one combat: you are sure of your enemy's defeat up close.

They are a nomadic fleet-based chapter BUT do set up keeps on planets they assist or conquer.

The crusader squad is based on the fluff that a Initiate (full space marine) is in charge of a Neophyte (Scout of sorts) to demonstrate and teach in combat the new trainee.

The main visual element for them is the black armor with white shoulder pads and a black Germanic cross on both sides.
Tabards got added on later as a nice element and with the upgrade pack they started "chaining" their equipment to themselves... I think of chains as a liability is combat, if you are afraid of dropping your weapon, you are not holding it very well. A chainsword on the end of a chain could get exciting however.

Grey knight helmets will do in a pinch, they have that nightly look to them.

Sword Brethren look very much like the knights templar the army is based on. They are the Veterans of the Chapter and pretty much lead any "Crusade" that goes shooting off from the main fleet (One is designated as a "Marshal"). This Chapter does not follow the Astartes Codex laid down Guilliman: there is estimated in excess some 10,000 of these guys.

Yeah "Abhor the witch" was/is a thing, they barely tolerate their navigators and astropaths (though astropaths usually meet the emperor and have their eyes melt out of their sockets... so they are "alright").

They are so much a fan of the emperor that the sisters of battle seem to be very happy to work with them.

I liked the Inquisition, and so Black Templar seemed the logical fanatics to have tag along.
They grew into a full army for me in short order.

 ServiceGames wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Black Templars also have ... basically a better version of a psycher's Deny Test as a 1 CP strategem. If you weren't playing a Librarian to begin with that can be pretty handy. I had a 500pt game where denying Catalyst with that strat was the only thing keeping me in front of Genestealer Recursion, but it doesn't scale well at all.

Maybe I didn't read what you had written correctly (which honestly could be the case), but per the fluff, Black Templars don't use Librarians in battle at all:

By their doctrine, the Black Templars abhor the traitor, the alien and the mutant. The last category includes psykers, with the result that the Black Templars are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that exclude Librarians, seeing them as a potential source of corruption in the midst of battle. However, Black Templars do use psykers in other non-combatant roles, such as Astropaths and Navigators. Black Templars view these beings with special reverence as they see them as able to commune directly with the Emperor.

SG

What I meant was; if I don't have a psycher in the list and I think it's advantageous based on my opponent's faction, then I can just switch to BTs to use that strat without any issues since any Vanilla Marine list would be legal as BTs.

And Templars dont even have to cost more than say ultramarines. U can skip the scouts entirely if you want. Templars can use tactical squad or crusader squads equipped like normal tacticals if you desire. As for the shoulders there is always the option to paint the cross yourself. It's a fairly forgiving chapter symbols (compared to raven guard, crimson fists, ultramarines, blood angels etc.)

 Talizvar wrote:
Grey knight helmets will do in a pinch, they have that nightly look to them.

I've looked a quite a few painted models as well as artwork for Black Templars. I've seen both regular helmets and the knightly-looking helmets. Can either be used? My guess is yes. But, my second question is... do Black Templars wear those knightly-looking helmets in the fluff or both?

Thanks

SG

The horus heresy ones do.

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, per the fluff, their specialty is Close Combat. There aren't any berzerkers in loyalist chapters, so what do you use? Is it all Tactical Marines with Bolters and Chainswords? Are Elites mainly TH/SS Terminators? Do they really use any ranged marines at all? Seems like they are the Loyalist version of World Eaters without the troops available to do the same type of close combat damage.

Any of you Black Templars players out there, please let me know which models you use for your army.

Thanks

SG

No bezerkers in loyalist chapters? Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers may disagree on that point. Heck, read the Seige of Vraks fluff, the Carcharadons were brutal and then some...

The Carcharadons don't appear on Vraks at any point.

Pretty sure you're referring to the Badab War books, IA:9 & 10 IIRC..

 Excommunicatus wrote:
To make a melee Crusader Squad, you need at minimum an Assault Squad box and a Scout box

Why do you need the Scouts? BT Crusader Squads can be entirely ASMs, no Scouts, or did that change where 1+ Scouts are required?

No, it's just my own view that it's not a Crusader Squad unless it has Initiates in it and I forgot that same wasn't an actual rule.

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, per the fluff, their specialty is Close Combat. There aren't any berzerkers in loyalist chapters, so what do you use?

Black Templars *are* Khornate - they just don't admit it. Hence the no Pskyers thing and the CC focus.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, per the fluff, their specialty is Close Combat. There aren't any berzerkers in loyalist chapters, so what do you use? Is it all Tactical Marines with Bolters and Chainswords? Are Elites mainly TH/SS Terminators? Do they really use any ranged marines at all? Seems like they are the Loyalist version of World Eaters without the troops available to do the same type of close combat damage.

Any of you Black Templars players out there, please let me know which models you use for your army.

Thanks

SG

No bezerkers in loyalist chapters? Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers may disagree on that point. Heck, read the Seige of Vraks fluff, the Carcharadons were brutal and then some...

He's blatantly talking about the fact that there's no Khorne Berzerker equivalents rules-wise for Loyalist chapters.

Sadly, the only decent melee unit in the Vanilla Codex is double-Chainsword Vanguard Veterans. Everything else suffers from either a lack of mobility, a lack of attacks, or both. You could give anything in the book the same fights twice rule that Khorne Berzerkers have and nothing would match the Berzerkers anyway, outside of things like Ironclad Dreadnoughts or TH/SS Terminators that go after completely different targets to the Berzerkers.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, per the fluff, their specialty is Close Combat. There aren't any berzerkers in loyalist chapters, so what do you use? Is it all Tactical Marines with Bolters and Chainswords? Are Elites mainly TH/SS Terminators? Do they really use any ranged marines at all? Seems like they are the Loyalist version of World Eaters without the troops available to do the same type of close combat damage.

Any of you Black Templars players out there, please let me know which models you use for your army.

Thanks

SG

No bezerkers in loyalist chapters? Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers may disagree on that point. Heck, read the Seige of Vraks fluff, the Carcharadons were brutal and then some...

He's blatantly talking about the fact that there's no Khorne Berzerker equivalents rules-wise for Loyalist chapters.

Sadly, the only decent melee unit in the Vanilla Codex is double-Chainsword Vanguard Veterans. Everything else suffers from either a lack of mobility, a lack of attacks, or both. You could give anything in the book the same fights twice rule that Khorne Berzerkers have and nothing would match the Berzerkers anyway, outside of things like Ironclad Dreadnoughts or TH/SS Terminators that go after completely different targets to the Berzerkers.

Blood angels are similar though. Especially their death company. +1 to wound first round of combat helps

Let me ask this question, then. Could you use the Primaris models from Dark Imperium as Black Templars, or would that simply not work since they are all shooty instead of melee focused?

Thanks

SG

EDIT: Can Dark Angel Veterans be used as Crusaders?

If you paint it black, you can use basically any SM mini as a Black Templar.

Yeah, but without the tabards and chains, it's kinda disappointing

Okay, you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as it is not super confusing to you or your opponent what you are fielding.

Classic:
Newly revamped:
This has some insane detail but hits all the right accents:


An example where I was showing script on models of my stuff:


They are Space Marines first and foremost who have a tendency to like to get "stuck in".

One rule they have is they can re-roll charges just like Orks so that does give a tiny bit of flavor to it.

Vanguard or Assault troops I have found quite good at what they do.

Other army models are "fine" to use but may take a fair bit of work to remove all their chapter specific symbols since GW seems to like to coat all the new models with them.

Primaris, nothing special there, paint them up appropriately and they work fine.
Reivers may actually fit in quite well.