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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Alright, "scrappy" could probably be something less evocative of a diminutive canine pugilist, but the name isn't the focus here. You know how it stinks when you take that expensive melee unit, you manage to get it most of the way across the table, and then it dies before it can do anything? And not because it got shot to death but because your opponent charged it and the sheer violent momentum behind that charge was apparently so intense that your nobz or harlequins or sanguinary guard didn't even manage drag down a single one of the enemy's number in return. That doesn't feel great.

Sure, getting the charge off should probably have some kind of reward, but "invalidating all of the enemy unit's melee ability by killing them in melee before they can swing," might be a bit much. This is less of a balance issue and more of a general gameplay issue. So, what I"m pitching is that we give certain units, basically anything expensive and melee-centric, something akin to the following:

Scrappy
A model with the Scrappy keyword that is slain in the Fight phase by a model without the Scrappy keyword may immediately fight after the attacking unit's attacks have been resolved but before the Scrappy model is removed as a casualty. These attacks must be resolved against the unit that slew the Scrappy model.

Was that wording gibberish? I feel like I maybe managed to keep that pretty clear. So basically, your melee unit that has, in fact, reached melee at this point can still get some licks in before he's removed from play by a stampede of conscripts. Lucius the Eternal over there is going to die under that blood letter dog pile, sure, but he's also going to get a chance to drag a few down with him.

I avoided the "make a single attack on a 4+" mechanic because that strongly favors quality of attacks over quantity of attacks. Lelith Hesperax making a single parting attack is a lot less impressive than, say, a guardsman with a power fist or some random power klaw nob. Scrappy models in melee with each other work the same way they do now, so no change there. Charging with non-scrappy units against scrappy units is still beneficial in that you're forcing the dead scrappy models to attack which unit killed them.

So in the current rules, charging a weakened Lucius the Eternal (or whomever) with a bunch of conscripts and your smash captain (or whomever else) might result in Lucius dying ignobaly under a pile of mooks without managing to slay any of them in return. Using the rules I've proposed here, that same scenario allows Lucius to disdainfully slaughter a few of the imperial chumps before he dies, but he still won't be able to stab at your smash captain if the guardsmen were enough to kill him.

...Because presumably you have some reason not to activate the Captain first in this hypothetical scenario. I think the point is still illustrated though.

As for which units would be scrappy, well, that's kind of step two of the conversation. A few off the top of my head examples:
* Most HQ's would, but a company commander, fireblade, or malanthrope probably wouldn't.
* Expensive melee units (nob, vanguard vets, and incubi) probably would, but striking scorpions, assault marines, and hormagaunts might not.
* Some special rules could conceivably be reworked to grant scrappy. Being Emperor's Children, for instance, might make you Scrappy instead of just letting you pretend that you charged.

Thoughts? I've been been rattling this around in my head for a while, but it's late, so maybe I'm talking nonsense.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




There are some varieties of units who already have this sort of rule, though it's few and far between. (I think Wulfen do, and Noise Marines? Though with Noise Marines they get it on shooting as well.)

The problem that comes up with these rules is that it generally removes counterplay for the player fighting against the scrappy unit. There's a huge list of characters out there who will one shot each other - Basically anyone with a 3 Damage weapon and multiple attacks but no 3++, really. A big part of the fight phase is deciding how you want to space out your attacks and who you want to charge to make sure you get all your attacks in, your opponent doesn't spend 2 Command Points to beat you on fighting order, that sort of thing.
If most beatstick characters have this rule, then it rather defeats the purpose of bringing beatstick characters, because they'll turn into antimatter that blow each other up on contact.

Forcing the Scrappy character to hit whoever killed them kind of sort of helps, but really just creates a situation where nobody wants to get involved in combat with characters. If my Warboss can't charge enemy beatsticks without getting nuked and dying in response, I just won't charge my warboss into enemy beatsticks.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Thanks for the reply! Something I feel I ought to point out is that Scrappy units only get those "scrappy attacks" on units that are not, themselves, scrappy. So your warboss (who would certainly qualify as scrappy) would be at no risk of triggering "scrappy attacks" than he is now.

I hear what you're saying about picking your fighting order, being careful with spacing, etc. However, I've found that this basically just boils down to only charging one enemy melee unit with one melee unit of your own each turn. If I'm playing harlequins and you're playing orks, I'm actively discouraged from sending two of my melee units (in a mostly melee army) against two of your boyz squads because two CP makes it pretty easy for you to obliterate my second unit before it swings. This rule is the result of a the line of thinking that grew from that initial frustration.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






So you're suggesting that the unit can only get these "scrappy attacks" unless they are fighting a unit who is "Scrappy" themselves, which will probably be most units who can kill your "Scrappy" unit in CC anyway.

I think it need refinement.

Personally, I would prefer to add "Countercharge" as a response instead of "Overwatch".

This would then give you the situation where both players have units which have charged this phase.

Then, with a bit of rewording to state that "A unit which has not charged this turn may not be selected to fight a unit which has charged this turn, unless that unit has already fought" to allow for a smoother fight phase, and you have the situation where if you have 2 units which both get charged and both declare countercharge, after the enemy has swung with one, you can swing with one of yours - enhancing the "we are here to fight" vibe of an army, and making it less "charge! Charge the enemy! We must get stuck in" Chaa - oh, they charged us first. um, stop and shoot them a bit, I guess?", which you get by footslogging all the way across the board, only to be charged by the enemy.

This rule could also allow for any model who is removed to make a single attack in the fight phase, which is more useful to fighty units than overwatch. A unit of thunderhammer stormshield terminators aren't going to stand there pretending to shoot the enemy (as they have no guns), they're going to charge back!

12,300 points of Orks
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 some bloke wrote:
So you're suggesting that the unit can only get these "scrappy attacks" unless they are fighting a unit who is "Scrappy" themselves, which will probably be most units who can kill your "Scrappy" unit in CC anyway.

If I follow you, I think I'm saying the opposite.

The rule can basically be summarized as, "Good fighters get revenge attacks against bad fighters."

So your warboss, no doubt scrappy by virtue of being the biggest, beefiest ork in his Waaagh, gets charged by guardsmen. Said guardsmen get lucky and kill him, but before you remove him from play, you get to swing against the guardsmen and drag a few with you. Because you're a beastly combatant of legendary prowess, and dying to guardsmen without hurting a single one of them is lame.

Same warboss gets charged by a culexus assassin or Calgar or some other similarly "scrappy" combatant. They stab your warboss to death. No revenge attacks because they're "in your weight class." The fight just works as normal.




I think it need refinement.

Personally, I would prefer to add "Countercharge" as a response instead of "Overwatch".

This would then give you the situation where both players have units which have charged this phase.

Then, with a bit of rewording to state that "A unit which has not charged this turn may not be selected to fight a unit which has charged this turn, unless that unit has already fought" to allow for a smoother fight phase, and you have the situation where if you have 2 units which both get charged and both declare countercharge, after the enemy has swung with one, you can swing with one of yours - enhancing the "we are here to fight" vibe of an army, and making it less "charge! Charge the enemy! We must get stuck in" Chaa - oh, they charged us first. um, stop and shoot them a bit, I guess?", which you get by footslogging all the way across the board, only to be charged by the enemy.


I see a lot of merit to this and wouldn't mind seeing it implemented. The only downside that jumps out at me is that it doesn't address the frustration that is the Counter Attack (Counter Charge?) stratagem and abilities that let you go back and forth with charging units. Those rules, assuming they remain unchanged, still basically punish the charging player for charging with more than one unit a turn. With something like my scrappy proposal, your opponent can still interrupt your second charging unit and kill it, but said unit will still get to make his attacks before he drops.


This rule could also allow for any model who is removed to make a single attack in the fight phase, which is more useful to fighty units than overwatch. A unit of thunderhammer stormshield terminators aren't going to stand there pretending to shoot the enemy (as they have no guns), they're going to charge back!

Do you mean literally a single attack, or a single activation wherein you fight with all your attacks? The former seems to favor units with a low number of quality attacks over units that rely on quantity of attacks. It benefits a thunderhammer captain or maybe even a random power fist guardsman over Lelith Hesperax, for instance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 05:35:48



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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