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Hi, I have a quick rules question:
In regards to the killshot strategem (marines codex): Can chronus (if embarked on a predator) count as one of the 3 predators necessary for this strategem? How about the forge world relic predator? I assume the answer is yes since they all would have the predator keyword, but wanted to confirm. Thanks!

Does the stratagem ask for a Predator or a PREDATOR?

If it's the first, you're out of luck-it needs specifically the Predator unit.

If it's the second, it just asks for the Keyword, and you're good.

The killshot stratagem needs a predator (unit name), not a PREDATOR (keyword, capital letters). Thus, sgt. chronus cant use killshot, neither can any FW unit. It doesnt work on a BA baal predator either. The units name is not predator.

Sgt Chronus is an upgrade to a predator. So I would think that would still qualify. The FW predators would not as they have a different unit name.

Yeah you purchase a predator as per normal and add chromos to its cost. I would still consider than a predator. I don't remember reading anywhere that taking him cause's it to loose any keywords. It only adds the character keyword to it.

The predator is added to sgt. chronus, not the other way around. The units name is sgt. chronus, not predator. Killshot requires a unit which is named "predator". It doesnt matter if the unit has the PREDATOR keyword, or not. Learn the difference between PREDATOR and predator. One is the keyword, the other is the units name.

 p5freak wrote:
The predator is added to sgt. chronus, not the other way around. The units name is sgt. chronus, not predator. Killshot requires a unit which is named "predator". It doesnt matter if the unit has the PREDATOR keyword, or not. Learn the difference between PREDATOR and predator. One is the keyword, the other is the units name.

Nope. Before lecturing others about rules, make sure to re-read them again.

A single ULTRAMARINES Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter, Stalker, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader or Land
Raider Redeemer in your army can take Sergeant Chronus as an upgrade.

Tank Commander: Sergeant Chronus always begins the game commanding a vehicle (see above). Whilst
commanding the vehicle, use that vehicle’s normal profile, weapons, abilities, keywords and characteristics,
with the exception of its Ballistic Skill

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The predator is added to sgt. chronus, not the other way around. The units name is sgt. chronus, not predator. Killshot requires a unit which is named "predator". It doesnt matter if the unit has the PREDATOR keyword, or not. Learn the difference between PREDATOR and predator. One is the keyword, the other is the units name.

Nope. Before lecturing others about rules, make sure to re-read them again.

A single ULTRAMARINES Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter, Stalker, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader or Land
Raider Redeemer in your army can take Sergeant Chronus as an upgrade.

Tank Commander: Sergeant Chronus always begins the game commanding a vehicle (see above). Whilst
commanding the vehicle, use that vehicle’s normal profile, weapons, abilities, keywords and characteristics,
with the exception of its Ballistic Skill

Hmm. I don't feel like this conclusively says it is a "Predator", as opposed to "Sergeant Chronus". This is starting to look like it's falling into a classic FW rules inconsistency.

 Stux wrote:

Hmm. I don't feel like this conclusively says it is a "Predator", as opposed to "Sergeant Chronus". This is starting to look like it's falling into a classic FW rules inconsistency.

Not saying it's completely clear RAW, but if unit Predator becomes unit Sergeant Chronus it causes more problems than it solves, e.g. he has no valid wargear options damning the vehicle to the default weapons. If the Damage table is part of the characteristics is also debateable.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Nope. Before lecturing others about rules, make sure to re-read them again.

Ok, its the other way around. But its unclear if the resulting units name is still a predator, like its needed for killshot, or if its seargant chronus (tank commander), like its written on sgt. chronus datasheet.

OMFG... Yes, Chronus can use Kill Shot. The Predator doesn't stop becoming a Predator because of Chronus.

Next you're going to tell me that because Chronus doesn't have a degradation table on his datasheet that the vehicle he's in doesn't get worse as it takes damage, or explode, or only has 4 wounds a la Chronus' stat line.

The whole argument that the Predator is no longer a Predator because you use Chronus is complete nonsense.

 oni wrote:
OMFG... Yes, Chronus can use Kill Shot. The Predator doesn't stop becoming a Predator because of Chronus.

Next you're going to tell me that because Chronus doesn't have a degradation table on his datasheet that the vehicle he's in doesn't get worse as it takes damage, or explode, or only has 4 wounds a la Chronus' stat line.

The whole argument that the Predator is no longer a Predator because you use Chronus is complete nonsense.

Oh it totally is worth debating. The stratagem has the unit name Predator as a requirement, not the keyword PREDATOR.
Changing the unit name to Sergeant Chronus would make it in fact not a Predator.

It makes no sense if that is what happens, because wargear options become invalid and the Damage table might not be part of the characteristics (because you only use the Predator'snormal profile, weapons, abilities, keywords and characteristics), but it's totally worth debating because RAW is certainly very vague about it.

The name of a model is part of its profile

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The name of a model is part of its profile

So which model is it, is the question? Is it Sergeant Chronus with a Predator upgrade, or a Predator with a Sergeant Chronus upgrade? Sounds like the latter, making it still a Predator, but I admit I don't know the books involved.

 Octopoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The name of a model is part of its profile

So which model is it, is the question? Is it Sergeant Chronus with a Predator upgrade, or a Predator with a Sergeant Chronus upgrade? Sounds like the latter, making it still a Predator, but I admit I don't know the books involved.

From page 134 of Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

A single ULTRAMARINES Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter, Stalker, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader or Land Raider Redeemer in your army can take Sergeant Chronus as an upgrade. Your army may only include one Sergeant Chronus.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The name of a model is part of its profile

So which model is it, is the question? Is it Sergeant Chronus with a Predator upgrade, or a Predator with a Sergeant Chronus upgrade? Sounds like the latter, making it still a Predator, but I admit I don't know the books involved.

From page 134 of Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

A single ULTRAMARINES Rhino, Razorback, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter, Stalker, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader or Land Raider Redeemer in your army can take Sergeant Chronus as an upgrade. Your army may only include one Sergeant Chronus.

That makes it pretty definitive in my book. It's still a Predator, whether it has autocannons or lascannons or Sergeant Chronus. Therefore, it can be used in Killshot.

Right?

Correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Octopoid wrote:
That makes it pretty definitive in my book. It's still a Predator, whether it has autocannons or lascannons or Sergeant Chronus. Therefore, it can be used in Killshot.

Right?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The name of a model is part of its profile

Oh. Yeah. I totally overlooked that.
Pretty simple then.

Yeah the difference between names and keywords is very important and often overlooked. Important enough for GW to errata the Astra Copywritum codex to let FW Basilisks et. al. Benefit from stratagems.

Thanks for the info gents

But where does this put Baal Preds, Are they just out of luck?

triant308 wrote:
But where does this put Baal Preds, Are they just out of luck?

That is accurate. Baal Predators are not Predators, even if they are PREDATORS.

So much for my 6 pred list

Baal Predators are not Predators?

They are Baal Predators as much they are both Ball and Predator right?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Baal Predators are not Predators?

They are Baal Predators as much they are both Ball and Predator right?

They're not the unit Predator.

They're Baal Predators.

They both have the PREDATOR keyword, but the strat asks for the unit, not keyword.

The GW Design Studio has clarified this via their Faceook page. When the 'Killshot' stratagem says "... in your Shooting phase if a Predator is within..." it is referring to a specific datasheet (e.g., the 'Predator' datasheet on page 176 of Codex Space Marines) and not any datasheet with the PREDATOR keyword.

I wonder why GW hates BA so much. They have been hit pretty hard by all nerfs in the past.

Someone at HQ got their arses handed to them by BA list and then an argument broke out.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 oni wrote:
OMFG... Yes, Chronus can use Kill Shot. The Predator doesn't stop becoming a Predator because of Chronus.

Next you're going to tell me that because Chronus doesn't have a degradation table on his datasheet that the vehicle he's in doesn't get worse as it takes damage, or explode, or only has 4 wounds a la Chronus' stat line.

The whole argument that the Predator is no longer a Predator because you use Chronus is complete nonsense.

Oh it totally is worth debating. The stratagem has the unit name Predator as a requirement, not the keyword PREDATOR.
Changing the unit name to Sergeant Chronus would make it in fact not a Predator.

It makes no sense if that is what happens, because wargear options become invalid and the Damage table might not be part of the characteristics (because you only use the Predator'snormal profile, weapons, abilities, keywords and characteristics), but it's totally worth debating because RAW is certainly very vague about it.

None of that logic follows.

None of the abilities, or weapon options, are tied to the unit name nor keywords. They are all "this model". As far as degredatiin goes: only movement and #of attacks change. Chronus always sets BS to 2+; degredation is part of the profile, which is otherwise kept.