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Been looking at 30k for the better part of a year now and have desided to finaly give it a go since i allso collect AT18, so naturaly a few basic questions arrive.

1: how is the game looking overall. do you think it will still be around in 3-5 years time?
2: are FW the only model suppliers? are all the models in this range in resin or are some in plastic?
3: my army options: i want to go either iron hands since 40k has 0 support for them, or ad mech(like like both equaly mutch so it is a hard choise for me). how do these 2 forces play on the tabletop in a non tornament at say 1000p?
4: what books do i need?

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Been looking at 30k for the better part of a year now and have desided to finaly give it a go since i allso collect AT18, so naturaly a few basic questions arrive.

1: how is the game looking overall. do you think it will still be around in 3-5 years time?

Probably.

2: are FW the only model suppliers? are all the models in this range in resin or are some in plastic?

You can get Mark III and Mark IV infantry in plastic, from GW themselves, as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, a monopose Contemptor Dreadnought and a Mark IV and Cataphractii HQ models. Aside from them, and proxying other normal 40k kits as 30k counterparts, that's pretty much it for plastic.

3: my army options: i want to go either iron hands since 40k has 0 support for them, or ad mech(like like both equaly mutch so it is a hard choise for me). how do these 2 forces play on the tabletop in a non tornament at say 1000p?

AdMech are pretty good, from what I gather, with lots of Monstrous Creatures and access to very beefy characters.
Iron Hands aren't poor either, but aren't on the same level as Thousand Sons or Space Wolves.

In general, 1000 points would be quite small for 30k though, although that's not bad.

4: what books do i need?

The only essentials you'd need are the rulebook (red book), and then either the Legiones Astartes Army Book AND Legions book if you want Space Marines, or Taghmata Army List for Admech.

Good answers by Sgt Smudge - however, i will elaborate further on q3.

with mechanicum you have your 3 basic flavours - Taghmata Omnissiah, Legio Cybernetica and Ordo Reductor and each has a different base points cost.

Taghmata Omnissiah has the most variety at 1000pts since they are not locked in to a certain troop choice for the compulsory slot and can take Adsecularis Covenants which can be anywhere between 35 and 145 points per unit.

Legio Cybernetica is the most expensive basic troop choice of the three with compulsory slots filled by pairs of castellax which start at 210 points per unit and can go as high as 900 points if you go properly silly with upgrades

Ordo Reductor takes the middle ground with compulsory Thallax cohorts which start at 135 per unit and max out at 475


Thanks to updates etc there are some breaches of these statements - you can take Secutarii units as compulsory troops providing you have a titan as a Lord of War but you need to get a gander at the black books to make sure the wording affords your particular army/force org/unit choices

HQs can be cheap (ish) but my experience has the cheap HQs as complimentary units performing a function away from your main HQ who might end up being 300+ points depending on how much you want to stop your opponent getting 'slay the warlord' but typically will be a minimum of 230 points on their own after reasonable upgrades.

Thanks for the info.

So it appears that 30k has alot of "options" when it comes to "assembling the army", i fear i might be overwhelmed by the options and wont know what i should order first besides the rulebooks for whatever force i choose to collect.
Any tips for a "core" for both armys?

So I'll address some of the questions originally asked then give some army starter help.

1st Question: will it be around in 3-5 years FW says yes the new lead is very much about making the heresey happen there are reportedly 9 more black books to come so as long as fans keep buying we will still have the heresey for a long time to come and maybe the scouting after that though that's speculation 9 black books is a lot of years like litterally a decade at fw pace.

2nd Question FW are the suppliers for all unique units almost the entirety of vehicles but there are fw plastics from the betrayal at Calth and burning of prospero kits. While the bundles are now gone the individual kits are available. Gw patterns of rhinos land raiders predators and drop pods all exist same with box dreads so these are also fine to use though fw has the more common deimos pattern etc.

3rd question mechanicum and iron hands are actually both quite strong though mechanicum is probably the stronger of the two but 30k is a lot about fluff and bring the models you want. Iron hands are very simple and -1 str to enemy shooting is an incredibly strong rule. Mechanicum is probably the second most flexible force besides militia and cults but they want to play some bigger games as you have very expensive toys to bring. I dont recomend 1k points for hersey 1.5k is a much better starting point as unlike 40k heresey games are typically 2500-3000 instead of 2k or 7th 40ks 1850. But things die fast in the heresey and are often vary pricey. So you'll find not much fits in 1k at all and 1.5 gives some flexibility to differentiate lists otherwise 2 tac squads 2 rhinos and an hq is most of your points.

4th question what books it differs for mechanicum vs legions for mechanicum there is a red book specifically for them. For legions there are 2 books for the older legions a legion astartes general units book and legion special roles and units book both are accessible from FW. You also need a copy of 7th 40k rules which is 99% of 30k but 30k has an exclusive redone 7th book that changes a few things like removing the invisibility power. You dont really need the fw version though.

Core for both armies iron hands have this simple mechanicum does not as there are 3 types of mechanicum robots (cybernetica), tanks (reductor), generalized (taghmata). Taghmata gives the most flexibility but the other two have buffs to playing their styles but compulsory choices to.

Iron hands core for 1-1.5k
Centurion - forgelord / praetor - iron father (either is fine praetor will open row but costs more upgrade as you see fit 150-200ish points)

2x tactical squad + rhino (bolters and maybe artificer armour meltabombs core of your force if not using a row that changes troops) 170-200points x 2

So we are looking at 600 point core throw in a tank or two cause you are iron hands or maybe some gorgon terminators your hq needs some friends and while it may not sound super iron handy bikes are fantastic especially jetbikes with your legion rules a jetbike command squad for a iron father is nigh on immune to anything but the strongest of shooting.

Mechanicum core: - taghmaga omissiah

Let's take taghmata because it's the most flexible though I'm more if a reductor / cybernetics guy but both are less flexible and harder to play at 1k.

Magos prime - lachmarillus (this is optional but very very strong if using thralls especially at low points - the mages is super flexible so really pick what you like just know they start at 95 but can cost over 300 decked out so dont spend to much at 1k)

2 × 20 tech thralls - rite of pure thought (these guys are cheap chearful and fearless you can spend more for say carapace armour but honestly just right of pure though is scary 1k forces will struggle to remove them all and a lachmarillus brings them back on a 5+ 2×80 points)

So really with some magos upgrades we are looking at a core of 360ish points much cheaper than a legion list because you are taghmata you can now go anywhere you like toss in a couple hundred points on castellax or a thanatar, maybe take some krios battle tanks or even myrmidons you have a lot of room to play and can bring really strong units at 1k with such a cheap core 1.5k allows a lot more variety though and you'll get to mix and match as many of your options easily run 300 points a choice or more for fun units.

If you have some ideas for what type of mechanicum youd want to play I could help more. Also for iron hands pride of the legion is a common low point row allowing the use of veterans or terminators as troops if that's more to your fancy.

The Legions are a lot easier to build than the Mechanicum simply because Mechanicum models are all Forge World while there are plastics for the Legions. I'd suggest starting with the iron Hands and using Cortex Controllers or Praevians to field a few battle-automata or Thallax if you really like the Mechanicum rather than jumping straight into a full Mechanicum army.

One feature of 30k that 40k doesn't share is the Rites of War, which provide some buffs, special rules, and restrictions but also open up army composition options not normally available. I tend to recommend people start with Pride of the Legion, which allows you to field Tactical Veterans (5-10 models with one upgrade gun per five models) rather than normal Legion Tactical Squads (10-20 models with just boltguns) as your Troops, since it's easier to understand coming from 40k and more flexible at smaller points values.

Thanks again for the detailed replays.

@ Titanicus, I dont know what kind of ad mech i would want to play. i assumed they was like 40k, only placed in a 30k setting.
That they in reality was 3 different armies that played 3 different ways was not something highlighted in the battlereport videos on the tube that i have seen.
If it helps to identify what i might like, from a fluff point i have allways prefered the 40k cult mechanicus. skitarii is just not ad mech to me.


@ AnomanderRake
From an assembly point, resin models dont "scare me". I have a few 40k fw kits so i know what expects me.


So, as i dont have a 7th edition 40k rulebook as i never played it, i should then get the core rules from FW? what spesific books am i looking at then?
Reason i said 1000p is that i want a "bracket size" where i can learn the game, but if 1500p in 30k equals 1000p in 40k, then 1500p it is.

To the armys:
Based on the more complex descriptions about admech in here, would it be correct to say that of my two options, iron hands is more new beginner freindly, and i shuld realisitcly go for them as my first 30k army?
From the general fluff of the IH that i found on a few fan wikis, they "value" their dreadnoughts more then any other chapter. I have for some time played with the idea of a pure IH dread army for 40k. Now while i can understand that this might not even be possible or smart to do in 30k(it aint smart to do in 40k either but 40k is fubar), i would still very mutch love to have a desent selection of dreadnoughts in a 30k IH army, but is it a smart thing to do?
Aka if 2500p is the "default standard", would it be bad to have 50% of the totalt points value in dreadnoughts?
I am first and foremoust a collector, not a gamer, so i think as a collector when i create teoretical army lists, not as a gamer.

Seeing as i have to pay a hefty tax on the models when i pick them up at the post office, i dont want to buy models that are, well simply put, considered bad.
Ofc i know that 30k is more expensive than 40k, but i dont need to pointlessly waste cash if i can avoid it.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Thanks again for the detailed replays.

@ Titanicus, I dont know what kind of ad mech i would want to play. i assumed they was like 40k, only placed in a 30k setting.
That they in reality was 3 different armies that played 3 different ways was not something highlighted in the battlereport videos on the tube that i have seen.
If it helps to identify what i might like, from a fluff point i have allways prefered the 40k cult mechanicus. skitarii is just not ad mech to me.

The basic Taghmata list is pretty universal; the Ordo Reductor requires Thallax in the compulsory Troops slots and offers the Reductor artillery tanks (Manticore/Basilisk/etc.), the Legio Cybernetical requires Castellax in the compulsory Troops slots and gives an Archmagos with the Cybertheurgy rules. Picking Reductor or Cybernetica doesn't limit you very much but I find the Reductor bonuses more relevant and I like Thallax so my AdMech tend to go that direction.

@ AnomanderRake
From an assembly point, resin models dont "scare me". I have a few 40k fw kits so i know what expects me.

I make the recommendation based on cost more than ease of assembly. All-FW armies are more expensive than partial-FW armies.

So, as i dont have a 7th edition 40k rulebook as i never played it, i should then get the core rules from FW? what spesific books am i looking at then?

The core rulebook is the Age of Darkness Rulebook, you'll need that in addition to whatever army books you end up picking.

To the armys:
Based on the more complex descriptions about admech in here, would it be correct to say that of my two options, iron hands is more new beginner freindly, and i shuld realisitcly go for them as my first 30k army?
From the general fluff of the IH that i found on a few fan wikis, they "value" their dreadnoughts more then any other chapter. I have for some time played with the idea of a pure IH dread army for 40k. Now while i can understand that this might not even be possible or smart to do in 30k(it aint smart to do in 40k either but 40k is fubar), i would still very mutch love to have a desent selection of dreadnoughts in a 30k IH army, but is it a smart thing to do?
Aka if 2500p is the "default standard", would it be bad to have 50% of the totalt points value in dreadnoughts?
I am first and foremoust a collector, not a gamer, so i think as a collector when i create teoretical army lists, not as a gamer.

Seeing as i have to pay a hefty tax on the models when i pick them up at the post office, i dont want to buy models that are, well simply put, considered bad.
Ofc i know that 30k is more expensive than 40k, but i dont need to pointlessly waste cash if i can avoid it.

There is a Rite of War to make a pure Dreadnaught army but it's wildly impractical since it requires a massive HQ tax and gives up extra VP per Dreadnaught lost.

The strength of Iron Hands is in infantry lines since your Rite of War makes a lot of anti-infantry weapons quite bad at killing you, but if you like Dreadnaughts Blessed Autosimulacra and the Warsmith make you better at fixing them than most people, so if you take a couple of Contemptors and a Deredeo to boost their Invulnerable save to 4+ that might make for an interesting mobile firebase. I do tend to see Dreadnaughts in Drop Pods more than walking, though.

Iron Hands will definitely be a more beginner friendly army to start off with. Learning the marine statline is pretty easy, so this should reduce the amount of time you are referring back to your book to lookup Toughness, or WS values, (etc).

If you can find a copy of the now out of print Betrayal at Calth, it nets you 30 MKIV marines, a Contemptor Dreadnought, 5 Cataphractii terminators, a Cataphractii praetor and a MKIV Chaplain, all in plastic.

If you really want to play small lists, there are a few game modes made specifically for that. Zone Mortalis replicate ship boarding action (or other close quarter scenarios), and are usually between 500 and 1500 pts. Also, Centurion is a fan-made game mode focusing more on infantry and walkers.

If ever you want to read up on some info about the different armies, 1d4chan has some articles written up. I wouldn't take the info there as 100% truth, but they do give some generally decent advice.

Seems i will be going for iron hands based on what has been said about them here, and if i have not completely misunderstood something in the IH special rules, they can ally whit some mechanicum units?.?.?

One final question, how many models should my basic troop unit be, 5 or 10 man?

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Seems i will be going for iron hands based on what has been said about them here, and if i have not completely misunderstood something in the IH special rules, they can ally whit some mechanicum units?.?.?

There are two ways to do this. You can either use the ally system and ally in another force (requiring HQs and whatnot). Or, anything that takes a Cortex Controller (Forge Lord, Praevian, etc) may each take a unit of robots with them (Castellax, Thallax or Vorax). There is a Rite of War called Brethren of Iron that makes this a bit easier. So that way you don't need to pay the HQ tax, and some Rites of War don't allow allies anyways.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
One final question, how many models should my basic troop unit be, 5 or 10 man?

Depends on the unit. Tactical/Breachers/Assault squads start at 10. Veterans/Terminators/Support squads start at 5.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Seems i will be going for iron hands based on what has been said about them here, and if i have not completely misunderstood something in the IH special rules, they can ally whit some mechanicum units?.?.?

Yes, either with the normal ally rules of the Age of Darkness ruleset, OR via taking a model with Cortex Controllers/a Legion Praevian/a specific Rite of War that would let you take some Battle-Automata units in your Iron Hands army.

One final question, how many models should my basic troop unit be, 5 or 10 man?

Depends on the unit. Your normal "Troops" choices (so Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Breacher Squads) must all start at 10, and can go up to 20. You can, if you have an HQ which lets you take a Rite of War, have more freedom as to what can be your compulsory Troops, and could take Veteran Tacticals or Terminators as 5 man units of Troops.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Seems i will be going for iron hands based on what has been said about them here, and if i have not completely misunderstood something in the IH special rules, they can ally whit some mechanicum units?.?.?

One final question, how many models should my basic troop unit be, 5 or 10 man?

Specifically:

-The Forge Lord Consul (HQ Techmarine) can take a wargear item called a Cortex Controller that allows you to field one unit of Castellax, Vorax, or Thallax (Mechanicum robots) as a Heavy Support choice. Note that while the Iron Father (Iron Hands-specific generic Praetor) comes with a servo-arm and Battlesmith he is not a Forge Lord and does not gain this option.

-The Praevian Consul (robot-specialist HQ Techmarine) is specifically taken attached to a unit of Castellax or Vorax, and confers them advantages specific to his Legion.

The above two options are the quick-and-dirty "I want one unit of robots!" option that are available independent of Legion or Rite of War.

-The Brethren of Iron Rite of War allows you to field Castellax, Vorax, and Domitar Battle-Automata as normal choices within the detachment, but limits your HQ selection and may not include solely robots (it requires at least one unit of Legion infantry per Battle-Automata maniple). This one is available to any Legion.

-The Head of the Gorgon Rite of War (Iron Hands-specific) allows you to field any Battle-Automata Maniple (as of the current printing this includes Castellax, Vorax, Domitar, and Artalax Battle-Automata, but notably not Thanatar (Siege-Automata) or Vultarax (Stratos-Automata)) in Elites.

The above two can be used if you really like Battle-Automata and want to field more of them without going all the way into a Mechanicum army.

As to the last question your compulsory Troops in a Legion list without any Rites of War must be Tactical Marines (10-20 models with boltguns or pistol/chainsword), Assault Marines (10-20 models with jump packs and pistol/chainsword), or Breachers (10-20 models with boltguns and riot shields). Of the three Tactical Marines are the most flexible and will find their way into the most lists, Assault Marines are only particularly valuable for Legions with melee-oriented rules and your Legion rules limit their use, and Breachers are overpriced and require strange builds/strange battlefields to get much use out of. Most armies will field 10-model Tactical squads with Rhinos simply for moving about and holding ground, though the Iron Hands Legion rules make 20-man footslogging squads more useful than they would be in other armies.

The Rites of War (a bundle of special rules that modify what models are fielded in what slots and grant some special rules/restrictions) will frequently modify which units are fielded as Troops. Most Rites of War make for strange and difficult to play builds with great strengths balanced by significant weaknesses; usually a new player will be most interested in Pride of the Legion (which allows Tactical Veterans (5-10 models with a special/heavy weapon per five) or Terminators in Troops) or your Legion-specific Rites (which usually allow your Legion's unique power-armoured units in Troops; in the case of the Iron Hands that's the Book 6 Rite allowing Medusan Immortals in Troops).

Thank you for the indepth reply.
I will do it simple in the beginning so i will stick to the tac marines for basic troops, and start with 10 man units as i gradly build it up to 20 man as i think i will benefit from as mutch passive help as i can get until i understand the game.

It absolutely makes sense to start an Iron Hands army that uses some battle-automata in it, and slowly expand the Mechanicum side until you have two full armies.

(Note that the Mechanicum only changes its name to the Adeptus Mechanicus late in the Heresy, after their government-in-exile on Terra gives up a lot of their autonomy to gain influence over the Imperium’s decision-making process. Being an Adeptus means getting a seat among the Lords of Terra.)

One thing to keep in mind is that the Iron Hands have already had their time in the limelight, and while they might get a little more attention from Forge World, the Mechanicum will definitely be getting new rules and models. Book 9 (presumably out mid-next year) will have rules for Dark Mechanicum armies. At the last FW Weekender someone said that someone said that it won’t exactly be Traitor Mechanicum - loyalists will be able to use the rules too, but they’ll be loyalists that weren’t complying with the rules and restrictions that the Emperor laid down. And we might get a book covering the Martian Civil War one day, which would probably result in new units and models for all Mechanicum armies.

But do start with Iron Hands. Small games are more interesting (less paper-scissors-rock) with marines, imo. It’s common to write army lists for Zone Mortalis under 1250 points; Centurion at 1000 - 1500 points (unofficial game mode written by the Eye of Horus podcast that basically takes tanks and Praetors away); and then you see regular lists at 2500 and 3000 points.

Maybe you’ll have some basic automata by the time book 9 rolls around, and then you can decide what direction in which to take that part of the army.

Personally, I think Iron Hands look better in Mk III than IV, and there are still some on eBay from opened Burning of Prospero boxes. And I’d be wary of 20-man squads. All the AP3 artillery in the game really pushes people to put their squads in Rhinos, as does the need for mobility. Footslogging doesn’t work well for most legions.

Was messing around with a Orbital Assault IW army with a kharybdis drop pod or 2 that being one of the only solid reason to take a 20 man, but then I got caught up in Taghmata and knights and then it was the IW army or a Titan.

And well the Titan won.