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I am a new AOS player (but longtime 40K grognard) heading to my first AOS tournament in two weeks. I basically have two of the 1st Edition starter sets as the core of my army. My baseline army is:

Vandus Hammerhand
Knight-Incantor
Knight-Vexillor
Lord Relictor

Liberators x 10
Liberators x 5
Liberators x 5

Prosecutors x 6 (might split this squad - I had been tracking the 1st Edition Hammerstrike Battalion which seems to have been nerfed somewhat)
Retributers x 5
Retributers x 5

This comes to 1680 points, and two-thirds of it is painted. I want something fast and heavy-hitting to go with Vandus. Based on what I can realistically acquire and paint I am facing two choices right now:

Concussors x 2; or
Evocators on Dracolines x 3

I like the look of both units, although the Concussors perhaps go better with the "old school" theme of my army.

Any advice from the community?

Your obedient servant,

T2B

So like any AoS list discussion this meeds to start with the ppwer level you are aiming for. What can you say about the local/tournament meta? Are you looking to go and have a shot at winning or just not get rolled over for most of your matches?

As a for fun list, this is pretty nice.

As a tournament list, I would expect you to have a bad time.

It's my first AoS tourney, so my expectations of victory are rather slim...I aim to gain a greater understanding of the game. I know my local 40K meta very well from playing in 40K tourneys each quarter, but I have no real grasp of the local AoS meta. I see big monsters in the odd game that goes on while I play 40K or FOW. I think I saw a FEC list the other day fighting some Khorne dudes.

So I am not looking to win, but I would at least like to pose a challenge to my opponents.

Any tweaks that would help?

Liberators are pretty low usage due to other things (like evocators) being much better for their points.

Prosecutors, if you're going to run them IMO yes split them into two squads of 3 so they can gun for objectives. As a blob of 6 their utility is far less.

Retributors are actually pretty good, but in the stormcast list again there are things that do their same role even better believe it or not.

I"d at least remove the liberators and replace with evocators and split the prosecutors up as a start if you're playing in a tournament environment and then you can gauge from there how you do.

Liberators are a little bit sub-par just for showing up; they pay for their nice stats but should be getting a 10-pt discount because of their fat 40mm bases (IMO). Sequitors are what people are using as battleline for tournament Stormcast because they are like liberators but better, while evocators are like paladins but better. That said the complaints about that are frequent even from SCE players (who are rightly miffed about their old stuff being outcompeted so hard) so I would expect a nerf come next GHB. That is still a good time off but soon enough that it is worth evaluating how dedicated you are to getting them against the nerf possibility.

Of course some of those evocator models being completely fething badass doesn't hurt their appeal.

Hmm. I'm afraid that wholesale replacing the Liberators with Sequitors is not an option for me this tourney - the baseline army above is all of my SCE models. Plus I spent the holidays painting them so they should get at least one crack at glory! I could park five models to free up points for something else and still have my three Battleline squads.

Do you recommend Evocators on Dracolines over Concussors?

Thanks again for helping out a new guy! Colllecting and painting up AOS has been a nice change of gears over Christmas.

Evocators on Dracolines will beat out all the Dracothian options save Fulminators which are powerful enough to be on-par. They also don't have a name as bad as "concussors" so there's that!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Evocators on Dracolines will beat out all the Dracothian options save Fulminators which are powerful enough to be on-par. They also don't have a name as bad as "concussors" so there's that!

Cool - thanks for the advice and the chuckle! There some rather cringe-worthy AoS names out there...

I once listed the names of all Stormcast units, put in a fake one, and told people at the end of the list "the sad part is you don't even know which one I made up!" After reading that people tended to assume I made up concussors.

Heading to the tourney tomorrow. Everything is painted to the best of my ability and I'm looking forward to really learning the game in the crucible of competitive play. My goal is to be able to genuinely exchange "Fun game!" with each of my opponents. It's cool if I lose all three matches - maybe I just go for killing the biggest thing in each list.

Going through my Battletome and the rules, I want to make sure I have a couple of things right. I don't want to make list errors due to 40k thinking. I have gone with baseline Hammers of Sigmar with Vandus as my General. My read of the rules tells me that he retains his Command Ability amd weapons. He does not get the Hammers of Sigmar Commmand Ability nor a Relic. Is this correct?

Where he a generic Lord Celestant on a Dracoth, however, he would change his Command Ability to he Hammers of a Sigmar one. He could then take the relic as well? I'm. It planning to, just making sure I understand how it goes.

Thanks in advance,

T2B

This may help:
General = Warlord
Command Trait = Warlord Trait
Command Ability = A stratagem you can use as long as a model with that ability is on the table.
Hammers of Sigmar Command Ability = A stratagem you can use by having your army be Hammers.

A model always has the command abilities on its warscroll regardless of if it is the general or not. Hammers of Sigmar grants an additional command ability that you can use with any of your heroes.

The general of an army gets a command trait, for Hammers this is 'pre-set' rather than getting to pick it. Unlike 40k unique characters cannot gain a command trait (if they are the general you will not have one).

Unique characters also cannot be given an artifact, but like in 40k that artifact can just be given to a different hero. Also like in 40k being the general does not prevent a hero from getting an artifact.

Thanks again! You have been a great help

Cheers,

T2B

Happy to help, good luck!

Packed up the army this morning and headed to Nexus in Kingston Ontario for my first AoS tourney after one test game on my basement table...Twelve players from the local community, some of us 40K converts, others hardened Sigmarites.

Game 1 vs Nurgle. My opponent, an AoS veteran, was very patient with me. He had a Great Unclean One, two units of Plague Drones, a unit of Putrid Blightkings, two big units of Plaguebears, a Daemon Prince, some supporting character-dudes and a tree. Our mission had two objectives in each of our deployment zones. I kept my Retributors and Vexillor in Reserve and plunked Liberators on my objectives. I foolishly placed my Dracoths on the flank with the tree...My deepstrike Retributors killed his Prince (Greater Demon?) but fell to the Great Unclean One. Vandus and the Fulminators (Fumigators?) killed both units of Plague Drones at the loss of Vandus. He had a comgo of buffs and de-buffs that I could not contend with. He won a minor victory as my big unit of Liberators held the refused flank objective. I learned a lot in this game and received some great advice from my opponent in the after action. He was also helpful in reminding me of my own special rules as we went along. So Matt, Sigmar smiles on you! He will eventually reforge you.

Game 2 vs Stormcast Eternals. He had a Sacrosanct list with three units of Sequitors, two units of Evocators, three Ballista-thingys, Vandus, the Aquilla-Gryph-dude and a couple of supporting characters. Our mission had four objectives with points scored each turn. He went first and built an early lead by dropping Vandus on one open objective and a unit of Sequitors on the other, but held his big force back on his objective. He did drop a Ballistae on my flank and wiped out a unit of Prosecutors. What my Prosecutors ever did to deserve that I will never know. In my turn I dropped my Retributors with Vexillor on one flank and Vandus with the Fulminators on the other. The Retributors wiped out the Sequitors while the Fulminators killed Vandus (helped by good breath weapon attacks). A Ballistae then killed my Fulminators ( I was cocky about their ability to withstand missile fire) and he pushed Sequitors and Evocators towards one flank. I kept the pressure on, and while my casualties were heavy it meant that I controlled the central objectives for two key turns. Both forces were depleted, but I won on victory points. I lacked a good answer to his Ballistae, and my Liberators definitely felt 2015 against the Sequitors. Still, an aggressive plan worked.

Game 3 x Khorne. He had three Slaughter Priests, a Lord with a Dog, the due with the whip and the guy with the Totem leading two big mobs of Reavers, two big squads of Warriors, three Kagoroths and a Daemon-engine thingy (might have been a proxy model that confused me - it was big and over 200 points with 16 wounds). We had the mission where an objective would land in a random spot in each of our deployment zones on turn 2. Things looked bleak at the end of his turn 2 when my central unit of ten Liberators was wiped out along with my Knight Incantor and Lord Relictor. They also happened to be sitting on the objective in my area...My Retributors beamed in and, well, retributed by killing the Engine-thingy and the Warriors. Vandus, the Fulminators and Liberators also seized the objective in his area, also wiping out his units on that flank. All of this was helped by a double turn for me...I fed the Prosecutors and surviving Liberators into the central objective to tie him up over the following turns and I somehow secured a win on victory points by the end of Turn 5.

After Action. I came second (tied with another) out of twelve. The games were all fun and I learned plenty (especially regarding alternating combats and putting blockers in). I played to the objectives and that seemed to pay off more than in 40K. I can see the point in switching out the Liberators for Sequitors, but at the same time the Libs did everything I asked of them. The Retributors were glass hammers, but boy were they hammers that hit hard. Expensive, but I hate to think of going without them. My only regret was not sending them against the Great Unclean One in Game 1. The Fulminators did well in each game and looked great while doing so. I was beneath the skill-floor, perhaps, for the the Knight Incantor and Lord Relictor to really get a good appreciation. I need to get some more games with them where I am not having to flip through the book to figure out their abilities. The Prosecutors, though, consistently failed to achieve results. Sorry dudes. It's not me, it's you.

Going forward, I will add the Knight-Venator (Vindicaire) to give me an answer to the buffing characters that two of my opponents relied on. I might also add either a Ballistae or some Vangaurd-Raptors for some ranged effect. Gavriel Sureheart may also join the team for his charge buff. To add these folks the Prosecutors will ride the pine instead of the lightning and my big squad of Liberators will be cut in half.

Thanks for reading! Any thoughts on my own after action are greatly appreciated.

T2B

Seems like you got some good matchups for an example of tournament play. In the sense that those are solid tourney lists but still reasonable enough that you got to -play- rather than show up and be steamrolled. It also sounds like people were friendly and not super powergamey in general, so good on your local community for that.

Game 1 - As I am sure you noticed, daemon princes in AoS are wet noodles compared to the 40k ones. As for retributors vs GUO, you may have made the right call in not hitting him but I cannot say for sure without having seen what the board looked like. GUOs have 16w, 5+ fnp, so you essentially need to deal 24 wounds to actually kill one. If you fail to they will heal at least a little, potentially quite a lot. Meanwhile the DP has no defense against mortal wounds so the retripukers can roll over him easily. Note that terrain is free with allegiance in AoS, so every Nurgle army gets one (and only one) free tree for showing up--it isn't actually part of the list.

Game 2 - Yeah, there is a balance issue with some of the new stormcast units and I am sure you saw that first hand. Good news is everyone knows it and GW has certainly gotten that feedback. I would be shocked if they did not get nerfed.

Game 3 - Sounds like that was a soul grinder.

Great job and I am glad you had fun!

Thanks for posting the outcome. Liberators do feel very 2015 vs sequiturs but not much looks cooler than a shield wall of libs ready to layeth the smackdown. Thankfully I play in an environment where I can still field a load of them and have a fighting chance

 torgoch wrote:
Thanks for posting the outcome. Liberators do feel very 2015 vs sequiturs but not much looks cooler than a shield wall of libs ready to layeth the smackdown. Thankfully I play in an environment where I can still field a load of them and have a fighting chance

Hey - thanks for the feedback!

By way of update, I have dropped the Prosecutors, scaled back the Liberators to min size and added Gavriel, a Knight-Venator and Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes. I've fought other Stormcasts, Blades of Khorne and Ogors (Irongutz?) My Venator super-arrow has yet to do something, but his damage output has been good. The Longstrikes have also done decently. The Fulminators were continuing to get it done until my last game - against FEC at 1500 points.

Our next tourney is at 1500 and I faced an FEC list with some leaders (they all look to same to me), two units of 30 x Ghouls, a unit of six Flayers (Knights?) and the Endless Spell that regenerates models. By the end of his second turn my Longstrikes were dead as were two of my Liberator units (all by the Flayers in his Turn 2 with their Feast Day thingy). My Fulminators, Vandus and Gavriel dropped in. My charge went off great, but in a flurry of 1s and 2s my Fulminators failed to cause a single wound. They were then promptly wiped out.

In Turn 3 Vandus, Gavriel and the surviving Liberators took down the Flayers and his Warlord, but I was then swamped by his Ghouls (and a double turn for him). My Dracoth ate plenty of Ghouls, but they just came back. A very rough game! He suggested that I try out Sequitors, but I think that would getting new deck chairs for the Titanic. In retrospect I could have formed a "square" with my Liberators to keep my Longstrikes alive a little longer - he was just able to get one model into contact with them after flying over my line.

I dropped the Knight-Incantor to get down to 1500 points, and I realize that I need to put him back in (that +D3 attacks spell is nuts on big units - have to have that unbound!). The Fulminators may have whiffed, but that happens from time to time and I am loath to bench them. I am considering Decimators to try and deal with future hordes like this. I might also try out Aetherwings as a stalling tactic (parking the the ethical issue of sacrificing birds to keep Eternals alive...)

Any thoughts on how to deal with FEC with my baseline list?

With your current list there is not much beyond being ready to exploit any mistakes that he makes. Going second and getting the double remains a reliable method. Snipe heroes if you can. Read the unit stats before the fight, get a clear explanation of what artifacts and spells he has. Understand the range of his abilities and the distance he can charge you while being in range of feeding frenzy.

The FEC list you describe sadly isn't the worst around by a long shot. They get to have a Terrorgheist always fight first and fight twice with feast day in what's called gristlegore (equivalent to a stormhost for us sons of Sigmar).
The assumption that Sequitors are better than Liberators is mostly true. If the enemy has some kind of super killy unit (like the described terrorgheist) you might as well stick to Liberators. If the enemy has rend 2 you won't get much out of rerollable saves. But if the Sequitors get to hit and you take the maximum number of Greatmaces, they hit almost as hard as Retributors at around the same pricetag.
Evocators however, beat Paladins in all regards, hands down. You can easily deepstrike a squad of ten Evocators along side Gavriel, use 2CP to make that a 3" charge, kill a unit of chaff with the attacks and a character or nearby monster with the mortal wounds that follow up.
Prosecutors to me are a solid utility unit but only with javelins.
You might wanna try those by proxy

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
The FEC list you describe sadly isn't the worst around by a long shot. They get to have a Terrorgheist always fight first and fight twice with feast day in what's called gristlegore (equivalent to a stormhost for us sons of Sigmar).
The assumption that Sequitors are better than Liberators is mostly true. If the enemy has some kind of super killy unit (like the described terrorgheist) you might as well stick to Liberators. If the enemy has rend 2 you won't get much out of rerollable saves. But if the Sequitors get to hit and you take the maximum number of Greatmaces, they hit almost as hard as Retributors at around the same pricetag.
Evocators however, beat Paladins in all regards, hands down. You can easily deepstrike a squad of ten Evocators along side Gavriel, use 2CP to make that a 3" charge, kill a unit of chaff with the attacks and a character or nearby monster with the mortal wounds that follow up.
Prosecutors to me are a solid utility unit but only with javelins.
You might wanna try those by proxy

Thanks! I am looking hard at Evocators. We have a 1500 tourney coming up (might not be able to attend but trying to juggle life things to do so) and its tempting to try them out. I still like my Fulminators (they look cool), but I suppose I should branch out!

Watch that GHB 2019, your Fulminators will even go down in points At this point i'm really struggling to see the use of Sequitors over Liberators at one third more points. I know how people with older books feel, but the new stuff (skaven, fec, fyreslayers) get so much more for the points. So, stick to the Libbies, get some Evos on foot for elite infantry and have fun with your fulminators as the heavy cav i guess?

Sequitors are still superior both mathematically and tactically, unfortunately.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sequitors are still superior both mathematically and tactically, unfortunately.

If they ever get to do something, yes. If you can't even activate your rerolls because gristlegore or greyfyrd slaughter a unit of 10 easily in one go at the beginning of the fightphase. And in that case the difference between Sequitors and Liberators is points.

Not to sound condescending, i want to reiterate: it depends largely on your playgroup, whether Sequitors are strong. If you face things like mentioned above, Sequitors have a hard time gaining more value than a basic Liberator squad would, which is: tick the battlelkne box, block charges, take up space. If your regular opponents don't run the hottest cheese, yes, Sequitors are way more powerful than Libs. But the ten point increase made me, personally, think twice about includong them way more often than at 120/ 400.

That is an interesting interpretation.

Looks like Sequitors and Evocacgors indeed went up in points, along with several characters. Fulminators seem to have stayed the same, but some of the other Dracoth folks and Paladins went down a little. I think my baseline list is more or less intact...

Any thoughts on the General's Handbook 2019 changes to Stormcast Eternals?

Caveat that I have not done a thorough analysis, but from my initial look-over I would say that the various dracoth options are viable rather than just fulminators, and the choice between paladins or evocators is actually a choice now. Though I would still lean towards evocators by a fair margin, especially due to grandstaves being a thing. I think that in previous editions paladins at 200 points was appropriate but shifting meta means their 3w/4+ profile is not nearly as durable as it once was, nor is their ability to throw out MWs as unique.

There is something to be said for the Skyborne Slayers battalion, where you can drop Protectors and Decimators 5" from the enemy alongside a Celestant on foot to increase hits. The 190 pts cost is steep though.
Outside of that i think Evocators remain superior to Paladins, their mortal wound output, spell and unbind makes them better overall despite the increased points. Maybe Decimators for antihorde duty, but you's need to get 6-7 models in range tu surpass Evos.