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A Perfect Ambush is a GSC stratagem that lets you move a unit d6" 'immediately after you set up'. Auspex Scan is a SM stratagem that lets you shoot at a unit 'immediately after your oppenent sets up a unit' at -1 to hit. As I read these stratagems, it sounds like they happen at exactly the same time, so the player whose turn it is, gets to choose the order. So if I set up a unit from Underground (the GSC deep strike move), can I then ask my opponent if he wishes to use Auspex Scan and he declines, I can then use A Perfect Ambush, knowing that the unit in question won't be decimated before charging since it's my turn and I get to decide the order of things?

Shrubs wrote:
A Perfect Ambush is a GSC stratagem that lets you move a unit d6" 'immediately after you set up'. Auspex Scan is a SM stratagem that lets you shoot at a unit 'immediately after your oppenent sets up a unit' at -1 to hit. As I read these stratagems, it sounds like they happen at exactly the same time, so the player whose turn it is, gets to choose the order. So if I set up a unit from Underground (the GSC deep strike move), can I then ask my opponent if he wishes to use Auspex Scan and he declines, I can then use A Perfect Ambush, knowing that the unit in question won't be decimated before charging since it's my turn and I get to decide the order of things?

Both are happening at the same time, when the unit is "set up", thus the sequencing rule comes into play.

Broken Sig Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."

I am unsure of how similar worded the sm strat is to the eldar forewarned one, sounds similr, but when my opponent uses the anyform of ambush to put his models on the table, it is at that point when he is putting his models on the table from using his command points that triggers me to be able to then use my command points to use forewarned and shoot st it full bs. He can then in return, use his 3 cp to try to roll a 2-6 to deny me using that strat, and potentially lose me my 2cp. I hope this helps?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I am unsure of how similar worded the sm strat is to the eldar forewarned one, sounds similr, but when my opponent uses the anyform of ambush to put his models on the table, it is at that point when he is putting his models on the table from using his command points that triggers me to be able to then use my command points to use forewarned and shoot st it full bs. He can then in return, use his 3 cp to try to roll a 2-6 to deny me using that strat, and potentially lose me my 2cp. I hope this helps?

The eldar and space marine versions of this stratagem are quite different.
The eldar one isn't limited by range. Just that the unit firing has to be near a farseer. So that one cannot be worked around via A Perfect Ambush moving the ambushing unit D6 closer. As you say, it can be blocked via 'A Plan Generations In The Making'.

The space marine Auspex Scan stratagem works on a unit arriving from reinforcements within 12" of a space marine infantry unit. So it's possible for the ambushing unit to arrive over 12" away, to prevent Auspex Scan being used, and then move D6 closer using A Perfect Ambush.

I think it comes down to the wording and sadly, intent.

Auspex scan happens "immediately after the unit is setup on the battlefield arriving from reinforcements"

Perfect ambush let's you immediately move or shoot after setting up during the movement phase.

Both RAW are happening immediately after the unit is setup. This would invoke sequencing

The rules in no way indicate who has to "go first" and declare they are using their Stratagem. They just dictate what happens if you both want to use them and they have to happen at the same time. You'll need to either work out an agreeable solution, dice off, or get a judge's ruling if in an event.

 alextroy wrote:
The rules in no way indicate who has to "go first" and declare they are using their Stratagem. They just dictate what happens if you both want to use them and they have to happen at the same time. You'll need to either work out an agreeable solution, dice off, or get a judge's ruling if in an event.

I’m
Sorry, what?
Forewarned can only happen when a unit that normally wasn’t on the board comes onto the board, therefore you would HAVE to place a unit on the board first. You don’t get to choose for me to go first as I can’t dk my action until yours is done

The crux here is in sequencing. and sequencing says the player whose turn it is...etc. So it seems you could setup from reserve, the marine player plays auspex scan (this clearly must come after you set up on the board), and you play the one that allows you to move. . Since it is your turn, you sequence your stratagem first, and move out of the 12" range of Auspex scan, and then the marine player can no longer play his stratagem given this? Is that the gist? Tricky one here. Does the marine player lose his CP?
Now as to the opposite, you set up, marine does nothing, you play your move strat, and now he says Oh then I use...to me he cannot, as the unit is beyond the "just set-up part of the phase" (per the wording of the strat I believe)
As to asking him "Hey, do you want to use..." that's just good sportsmanship.

Edited for clarity

If he ops to setup 13" away, then you cannot activate auspex scan to begin with.


To further clarify, it doesn't matter what order you do it in really. If he sets up initially at 12" or closer, you can activate auspex scan. If he cult ambush's he can move closer or farther, either before or after you shoot (since its hit turn) but it doesn't affect anything other than rapid fire weaponry/flamers

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The rules in no way indicate who has to "go first" and declare they are using their Stratagem. They just dictate what happens if you both want to use them and they have to happen at the same time. You'll need to either work out an agreeable solution, dice off, or get a judge's ruling if in an event.

I’m
Sorry, what?
Forewarned can only happen when a unit that normally wasn’t on the board comes onto the board, therefore you would HAVE to place a unit on the board first. You don’t get to choose for me to go first as I can’t dk my action until yours is done

Back up to the beginning of the thread Pain4Pleasure. The question is given that Stratagems Auspex Scan and A Perfect Ambush both must be declared "immediately" after a unit is setup, who has to declare they want to use their Stratagem, first. The OP doesn't want to waste A Perfect Ambush on a unit that is going to get mauled by shooting from Auspex Scan. That is exactly what the other player wants to do. So how do you decide what actually happens if neither player wants to use their ability depending upon if the other does/doesn't user theirs?

 alextroy wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The rules in no way indicate who has to "go first" and declare they are using their Stratagem. They just dictate what happens if you both want to use them and they have to happen at the same time. You'll need to either work out an agreeable solution, dice off, or get a judge's ruling if in an event.

I’m
Sorry, what?
Forewarned can only happen when a unit that normally wasn’t on the board comes onto the board, therefore you would HAVE to place a unit on the board first. You don’t get to choose for me to go first as I can’t dk my action until yours is done

Back up to the beginning of the thread Pain4Pleasure. The question is given that Stratagems Auspex Scan and A Perfect Ambush both must be declared "immediately" after a unit is setup, who has to declare they want to use their Stratagem, first. The OP doesn't want to waste A Perfect Ambush on a unit that is going to get mauled by shooting from Auspex Scan. That is exactly what the other player wants to do. So how do you decide what actually happens if neither player wants to use their ability depending upon if the other does/doesn't user theirs?

As stated above at this point it depends on if he initially set up within 12”. Where as with eldars forewarned it doesn’t matter except to the range of the weapon being fired

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

As stated above at this point it depends on if he initially set up within 12”. Where as with eldars forewarned it doesn’t matter except to the range of the weapon being fired

I wasn't clear enough in my opening post:
- I play GSC.
- I set a unit up at slightly more than 9" but within 12".

As alextroy said, I don't want to wast 3 cp for A Perfect Ambush on a unit that was decimated by the use of Auspex Scan. Therefore, sequencing matters to me.

edit: formatting

If you initially setup within 12" you are a valid target for auspex scan regardless of sequencing. The player with auspex scan can use it once you place the unit within 12", even if sequencing comes into play it won't change that they got to play auspex scan.

Shrubs wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

As stated above at this point it depends on if he initially set up within 12”. Where as with eldars forewarned it doesn’t matter except to the range of the weapon being fired

I wasn't clear enough in my opening post:
- I play GSC.
- I set a unit up at slightly more than 9" but within 12".

As alextroy said, I don't want to wast 3 cp for A Perfect Ambush on a unit that was decimated by the use of Auspex Scan. Therefore, sequencing matters to me.

edit: formatting

There is no initiative order for using abilities in this game. Sequencing is for resolving abilities, not declaring them.

As such, the opponent can wait for you to declare A Perfect Ambush and then declare Auspex Scan in response. So long as they do it before you start to resolve A Perfect Ambush.

Then for resolution Sequencing comes into play, and you choose the order to resolve the abilities.

 Stux wrote:
There is no initiative order for using abilities in this game. Sequencing is for resolving abilities, not declaring them.

As such, the opponent can wait for you to declare A Perfect Ambush and then declare Auspex Scan in response. So long as they do it before you start to resolve A Perfect Ambush.

Then for resolution Sequencing comes into play, and you choose the order to resolve the abilities.

Thank you, I agree and this answers the question.

I kinda think this is answered by if they GSC player sets up within 12" or not.

If No
It's isn't a valid state to trigger Auspex Scan.

If Yes
-GSC sets up within 12"
-SM Player declares Auspex Scan
-GSC player moves out of 12".
-SM player still gets to shoot you as there is no weapon range requirement in aspect scan. Only a requirement they originally set up 12" for AS to be declared.

Sequencing does not magically turn off abilities. Well in this context.

As there is a difference between activation of an ability and revolution of an ability. Sequencing is for resolving effects order.

40k really needs to actually have defined rules. As an X ygo player this kind of thing is silly not to have defined rules for. Other than what the rules state now.

OK. I apologize, I set up a duplicate thread for this, but I think we resolved the interaction correctly (this was between A Perfect Ambush and Forewarned) but basically, my understanding is this:

-Neither player may declare their ability AFTER the other player's ability has been resolved.

-If both players choose to use their abilities at once, sequencing rules apply. Now, I am curious about the whole "player whose turn it is" thing and where that stems from, because when I went looking for an answer I came across this from the BRB FAQ:

"Q: If both players have Stratagems or abilities that are used ‘at
the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn
begins’ (for example, if both players use the Forward Operatives
Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines), who resolves
their abilities first?
A: Unless the rule in question says otherwise, the players
roll off and, starting with the winner, alternate resolving
such rules one at a time."

Not that it matters much in this instance, but it seems like you'd roll off and resolve (I suppose it could matter if you wanted to use the shooting option in A Perfect Ambush, if you won the roll off you'd get to shoot first)

the_scotsman wrote:
OK. I apologize, I set up a duplicate thread for this, but I think we resolved the interaction correctly (this was between A Perfect Ambush and Forewarned) but basically, my understanding is this:

-Neither player may declare their ability AFTER the other player's ability has been resolved.

-If both players choose to use their abilities at once, sequencing rules apply. Now, I am curious about the whole "player whose turn it is" thing and where that stems from, because when I went looking for an answer I came across this from the BRB FAQ:

"Q: If both players have Stratagems or abilities that are used ‘at
the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn
begins’ (for example, if both players use the Forward Operatives
Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines), who resolves
their abilities first?
A: Unless the rule in question says otherwise, the players
roll off and, starting with the winner, alternate resolving
such rules one at a time."

Not that it matters much in this instance, but it seems like you'd roll off and resolve (I suppose it could matter if you wanted to use the shooting option in A Perfect Ambush, if you won the roll off you'd get to shoot first)

No, that FAQ is only before the first battle round where it's neither players' turn.

Sequencing is on the side of "2. Psychic Phase" and states:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer
40,000, you’ll occasionally
find that two or more rules
are to be resolved at the
same time – normally ‘at
the start of the Movement
phase’ or ‘before the battle
begins’. When this happens
during the game, the player
whose turn it is chooses the
order.