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So I’m gonna be in the market for a new car. Always been a SUV guy, and I was looking into Jeeps and other mid size SUVs and was kinda bummed seeing most of them cost like $40,000 now all the sudden. I bought a 2008 jeep wrangler for $25k new, that’s a 15k difference now for basically the same thing.

Been watching lots of youtube while bored at work and started learning about EV (Electric Vehicles). I’m not a hippie tree hugger by any means, but they seem pretty awesome nowadays. Not just Tesla but other car companies are putting them out too and they seem kinda impressive. The range you can go on a full charge has gone up, for some reason I was thinking it was like 70, but most are in the 200+ range and Teslas can be upgraded (for a lot of money) to be over 300 miles and can even have all wheel drive.

Then there’s the cost.. they cost more up front, but the cost to own over time is a lot less. I spend roughly $2000 per year on gas, while most youtubers are saying their electric bills from daily car charging was never more than like $50 extra. Also, there’s federal and state tax refunds you get for buying an EV, in my state it comes out to around $6000. Last year would have been even better, federal refund was over $7000 if you got an EV, but this year it’s like $3700 I think.

Even though I’ve never been much of a sports car kinda guy, I’m considering a Tesla Model 3 now. They start at $35k, and with the tax incentives and cost to own over the next 5 years, that price suddenly doesn’t seem so bad. I wouldn’t be able to afford much more than the base model though. At the base model level, it seems much better than the competition at that price.

So just curious… what are you thoughts on modern electric cars? Any good? Here to stay? Would you ever consider getting one?

It depends what range you need. There are lots of good electric cars which are suitable for bimbling around town on short journeys, with a range of 70 miles, but there aren't so many which can do 200 miles on a charge.

If your commute is 50 miles round trip, a city car with 70mi range is dicey in winter, considering the possible difficulty of finding charging points at either end. I think 200 miles is the range you need. If you have a long drive, every 2-3 hours you'll need to stop for a wee and a coffee. Leave it plugged in for 20 minutes and it will charge up to 80%. The same time out as a conventional vehicle.

A chargeable hybrid is worth thinking about. I was very impressed with the Prius I rented in Japan last year. But in some ways, a chargeable hybrid combines the disadvantages of both technologies. You don't get the advantage of low maintenance.

If you want low cost per mile on fuel and maintenance, you need to go for a pure electric vehicle, or something like the BMW i3, which is pure electric with an on-board generator to top up the battery for extended range.

This is a fairly small car, though. You seem to need something like a Jaguar I-Pace, which really isn't cheap.

However, we're about at the point where electric cars are rally taking off. Mercedes are introducing an entire new all-electric range over the next few years. Prices will come down with volume production.

All the above being said, though, apparently we are now at the point now that an electric car is cheaper over five years than an ICE car despite the higher up-front cost.

I think the technology has now reached the point that if you just drive locally most of the time (and have somewhere to park and charge it) electric cars are worth serious consideration

however traveling long distances in them is still far from ideal and the manufacturers claims on range are about as reliable as those on MPG or emissions, you'll only get it in perfect conditions (eg recent UK tests https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18159 ) so best to assume you'll get about 80% of it on average

and battery life can take a real hit in cold weather too

finding places to charge them when out and about here in the UK at least is problematic (I suspect urban areas in the US may be better)

Edit: they also still depreciate faster than standard cars on average so how long you plan to keep them is a factor too.... although those who can change their car every year probably don't have to worry too much about depreciation

 Kilkrazy wrote:
All the above being said, though, apparently we are now at the point now that an electric car is cheaper over five years than an ICE car despite the higher up-front cost.

That's what got me considering the Tesla Model 3. I could never afford one of their higher end versions, but with the base model starting at $35k minus tax refunds, it really got my interest.. though I would probably go with the next step up for $3000 more, that gives you the heated seats and other amenities. My daily commute to work round trip is around 70 miles per day. I rarely do road trips, but all of the major highways in the US seem to have charging stations, and some supermarkets and restaurants around here do too. Tesla also has their own supercharger network that you get access to. The sucky thing is it would take 30-45 minutes to charge up... however with the extended range I imagine I would only be charging on road trips when i stop to get something to eat, rather than gassing up real quick and eating in the car. All of the family I have worth visiting are within the car's range too. I estimate it would take me 3 burger breaks to make it to GenCon

I also looked into the Chevy Bolt, and that just seems cheapier quality overall for the same price range. The Nissan Leaf seems a little better. Another thing I liked about tesla is they only make electric cars, where it seems others are gas car companies that are making something just to compete.

Of course I would have to test drive one first, I am thinking I probably won't like sitting so low to the ground after having an SUV for the last 20 years. The Leaf and Bolt seem a little more like a crossover height, so I may end up liking them better. Either way I will probably still wait till this summer to decide. I dunno how some of those people preorder a tesla without driving one first, a year in advance. Seems crazy to me, but then I guess if you have the cash collecting dust...

Long range electric cars are starting to come through. The problem at the moment is the backlog for the larger batteries.

Kona and Kia both do electrics that have 280 - 300 mile ranges on a decent day (i.e. not sub-zero).

They also have active cooling to help with battery maintenance.

I'd be cautious about the second hand sale of lower mileage models. I suspect that in the next 2/3 years we will see an explosion of longer range electrics which I think will flatten the shorter range models.

Well you don't have to be a hippy tree hugger to want a planet left to live on

I think a hybrid is a better bet. I was driving my friend's hybrid car in Sri Lanka, the crazy thing basically never needed filling up or pluggin in!
It generated its own energy and if you drove right it seemed to hardly use the petrol engine bit at all.

The only problem was that is was so quiet people didn't hear it coming, so they tended to step out in front of the car a lot :-S

There is one thing I REALLY hate about Tesla. They try to make it as hard as possible for you to work on your own car. Getting new parts is next to impossible, and even if you can get them they have proprietary tools that you need for installation.

Mechanically, a Tesla or any pure electric vehicle is a lot simpler than any normal ICE car.

The problem with all modern cars is the embedded electronic systems, which run proprietary code.

I have a 2 person/1 car household with a Nissan LEAF. As long as you get something with range to match your needs and have reliable charging access I would strongly recommend an EV from my own experiences.

Obviously every state is different but they can also be quite inexpensive for a new car if the financial stars align. After tax credits mine came out to around $18k which is pretty good for a new hatchback.

If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

At the minute, they freak me out.

They're so quiet, when one pulls away from a parked position, it's like it's sneaking off somewhere.

Yeah I've been reading the repair costs for teslas are pretty high. But one thing that seems cool is the warranty is great, something like 8 years or 100k miles. I have a feeling that's about when they expect the batteries to start getting too sucky. I read it's something like $7-8000 for a new battery. I think most of the other EVs have good warranties like that too though. I usually keep a car for 4 years or so, I get severe FOMO when new stuff starts coming out.

I'm gonna test drive a Leaf, chevy Bolt and tesla model 3 and see which one I like best They all seem to be about the same price range. Tesla just announced their lower end Model Y SUV, but that won't be available till the end of next year and looks like it's just a taller Model 3. I think anything with a 200+ mile range would work for me so it will just get down to price and how comfy the seats are.

Talking about range, a colleague of mine had a nightmare weekend last week. He hired an electric car to drive to Cambridge and back. It's about 100 miles and 2 hours from Oxford. The car had a range of 70 miles. The journey took nearer 4 hours, thanks to the need to stop to charge.

On one occasion he found that the charging point indicated by the app was within a locked industrial estate and inaccessible. He had 8 miles range left at that point. Luckily the hire company was able to direct him to a nearby Ikea where he could stop to charge and ahve a look round (Always a joy!)

Anyway, he's decided never to hire a short range EV for a medium length trip again.

As I think I mentioned above, my round trip commute is 50 miles and I would be a bit nervous using a 70mi car for it during the winter. There are a few charging points in the car park in Oxford but they are often occupied.

I think the technology is interesting but I think the overall progress and infrastructure is far behind what we'd need to have EV's on a national scale. A quick Google search tells me a Nissan Leaf is £30,000 starting, before any government tax returns. For the same price, going with Nissan's website, I could get a Micra, wreck it, buy another one and still have around £5,000 change.

Renaut is similar as well. Their cheapest EV is the Zoe starting at £21,000 with the cheapest ICE the Twingo (who the hell makes up these names) at £11,000. Despite this the Twingo seems better in many regard:

- 5 minute fill time compared to a 1h46 charge time for the Zoe
- 94mph top speed compared to 84mph
- 1.3 tons while the Zoe is almost 2 tons

Yes, eventually the Zoe will cost less due to the price of fuel, but how long would you have to use it to break even?

If we had the technology where it could match an ICE in terms of power, range and cost then I'd be all for it, but at the moment it seems far too situational.

The car I’ve been dreaming about the most recently is the Jaguar I-Pace. It looks phenomenal, and really makes me wish I was rich.

In the past I thought EVs were only ever going to be a stop gap measure until Hyrogen got up and running, but now I’m thinking EVs are the future.

I would wait for another 5-10 yrs before getting one. By then, most of the major car manufacturers would've already saturated the market driving down the cost and product improvements.

The 2 big issues for me is: the high cost of repairs and short range.

However, I got to drive the Tesla Model S...and it *is* really farking nice. For the same price right now, I think I'd rather go with a truck or SUV (caddie Escalade).

I think we do need more infrastructure too. That was one of the things I liked about Tesla also, is they have their own superchargers all over, and are always adding more. I think there's like 4000 stations around the world and they are upgrading them to a new version that can charge you up in 15 minutes rather than 45. And that's in addition to the other charging stations you can use too. Not sure but I assume that other car companies aren't able to use the tesla superchargers? If so, I hope that changes some day.

Really curious to see what it'll be like in another 10 or 20 years. if EV really takes off and starts replacing gas, what'll happen to all those mom & pop gas stations? Will the just change over to charging stations? I also read that most mechanics can't really work on EVs or at least Teslas beyond basic stuff like rotating tires.

If I was running the stereotypical '2 car family' setup then I'd probably be getting a pure EV as my next urban runaround (I'm oddly drawn to that new Honda, maybe because it looks like the much-maligned Mini 1275GT of days gone by) with a traditional bigger car for distance.

But I'm not, so I'll stick with my one petrol roadster for now.

They've hit the range now that it should suit most usage patterns. 200 mile ranges mean you're charging at home for all but roadtrips, and even then you're only stopping to charge every 3 hours which is about human bladder duration anyway.

It's potentially more convenient having an EV too - you can charge it up more or less anywhere so never need to worry about gas stations. Charge at work and you're not even paying for it.

The performance blows most gas vehicles away, too.

The downsides at the moment are in terms of size/towing/load capacity - they tend to be regular cars that are pretty heavy on their own. You'd need something like a Tesla X to get a big towing SUV. I have heard there are trucks coming in the next few years (including an F-150), but if you're in a Jeep Wrangler you're probably fine with a Tesla 3.


I'd be buying an EV if I could afford one big enough for 2 adults + 2 kids + all the crap kids come with. I'm very tempted by a Leaf for a 2nd car but can't quite justify it yet.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Talking about range, a colleague of mine had a nightmare weekend last week. He hired an electric car to drive to Cambridge and back. It's about 100 miles and 2 hours from Oxford. The car had a range of 70 miles. The journey took nearer 4 hours, thanks to the need to stop to charge.

That sounds like a really bad hiring choice - did he choose the 70-mile EV (a Zoe?) ? or was it just the option he was offered? Knowing he'd need to stop and charge it at least twice, he really should have requested something more suitable.

There are plenty of pretty cheap small EV choices out there that have a limited range, but whilst they don't suit longer trips they are perfect for a lot of people with small trips (for instance my parents driving pattern is almost all 1-2 mile round trips to shops, with a few 20 mile round trips to other towns. They might got on a longer trip on holiday once a year, but it wouldn't kill them to charge somewhere twice a year). The newer range of 200+ mile EVs (Tesla Y has a range of about 230-330 depending on spec) almost entirely eliminates the need to stop mid journey to charge for anything beyond a road trip, and there's also nothing stopping someone hiring a gas vehicle for road trips.

I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.

I studied electric cars and it seems to me that the batteries are too expensive, heavyweight and short-lives. But in the long term, electric cars will be a competitor or replacement for conventional cars.

Is Hydrogen a no go?

 Chute82 wrote:
I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.

hmm.. I thought teslas had some of the best safety ratings? Like 5 stars across the board? At least that's what I read. What is it about them that would make the insurance expensive? Or is it more because of them being like luxury cars? The Model 3 seems nice but i think it's more like a honda civic with a ipad for a dashboard, the model S and X are the the super expensive ones. But yeah, good call, will see what my insurance guy says about it


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And I haven't really looked in to Hydrogen.. didn't even consider it, cuz part of the reason I wanted to go electric was to charge at home and never need a gas station again...well charge at home 90% of the time, I don't do many road trips but it's nice to know there's lots of charging options out there just in case.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Is Hydrogen a no go?

My brother lives in Tulsa and owns a hydrogen powered Honda. He liked it when gas prices were really high a few years ago. At one point it was stolen, and the thief ran it out of gas in their own driveway, LOL. They couldn't figure out how to refill it.

You also need to consider the home charging system.
Base model runs on 120v but is slow to charge.
Second level is faster but needs a dedicated 240v line installed.
Also, you need to consider your power bill. Either charging system is going to make a significant bump in electric usage.

Lots of decent hybrids out there that may not need the charging system and still cut down you fuel usage.
You also worry less about the batteries over heating and causing a fire.

The electric car in its current form is not an answer, it's a stop gap measure.

Companies are selling them because most first-world countries have plenty o' guilt-ridden people who imagine they're doing a virtuous thing by driving one. Admittedly they'll spend far more on one than an economical normal fuel car at the moment, but it makes them feel good. The infrstructure doesn't exist to support them, and it's not a proper long term solution.

Manufacturers are anxious to find the magic ticket to producing better electric cars (we need the battery tech to double or triple without costing more). Why? Because assembling a car with a battery reduces your necessary workforce by 25-40% (the people installing all of the motor components, engine bay etc.).

The cars themselves are not better for the environment outside of emissions. They're still producing dangerous waste in the form of batteries.

With better battery tech, can they be a solution for some people? Namely urban commuters, etc. Sure. But as a replacement for the normal ICE...not a chance. Won't ever replace motors for emergency vehicles, police cars, long-distance haulers, taxis, etc. I'm a courier at the moment and there isn't an electric car in the world which could cope with my erratic driving, long hauls, etc. You can't stack more batteries on the roof and drive into the wild, etc.

Lots of Hydrogen talk...but last I checked Hydrogen still takes more energy to create than it expels, so that's a serious problem for producing/selling it, etc. There isn't any tech which outpaces the ICE at the moment, particularly for emerging markets, 2nd and 3rd world countries, remote locations, etc. Just doesn't exist. But, urban runabouts for city-dwellers who drive 10 miles to work and back each day? Sure.

Herzlos wrote:
They've hit the range now that it should suit most usage patterns. 200 mile ranges mean you're charging at home for all but roadtrips, and even then you're only stopping to charge every 3 hours which is about human bladder duration anyway.
... ... ...

That sounds like a really bad hiring choice - did he choose the 70-mile EV (a Zoe?) ? or was it just the option he was offered? Knowing he'd need to stop and charge it at least twice, he really should have requested something more suitable.

There are plenty of pretty cheap small EV choices out there that have a limited range, but whilst they don't suit longer trips they are perfect for a lot of people with small trips (for instance my parents driving pattern is almost all 1-2 mile round trips to shops, with a few 20 mile round trips to other towns. They might got on a longer trip on holiday once a year, but it wouldn't kill them to charge somewhere twice a year). The newer range of 200+ mile EVs (Tesla Y has a range of about 230-330 depending on spec) almost entirely eliminates the need to stop mid journey to charge for anything beyond a road trip, and there's also nothing stopping someone hiring a gas vehicle for road trips.

He's in a local scheme call Co-wheels Car Club. They have cars dotted around the city in reserved spaces. You don't have to go to a hire office. You just reserve the nearest car with an app, and make sure you park it back there at the end of your trip. So you're buying convenience at the expense of choice.

http://www.co-wheels.org.uk/oxford

In overall terms, the EV market is taking off. The sales stats are clear. The push from governments, and the new models and marques coming from manufacturers. For example, cars like the BMW i3, designed from the start as an EV, are made with aluminium and carbon fibre, to lose the weight of conventional steel. Mercedes EQ marque will be releasing 5 purpose designed vehicles over the next five years, with a variety of battery ranges to allow you to trade price against driving range.

There is still an issue with charging infrastructure in the UK. Redbridge Park and Ride Oxford has capacity for over 1,000 vehicles, but only 4 charging points.

 Necros wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.

hmm.. I thought teslas had some of the best safety ratings? Like 5 stars across the board? At least that's what I read. What is it about them that would make the insurance expensive? Or is it more because of them being like luxury cars? The Model 3 seems nice but i think it's more like a honda civic with a ipad for a dashboard, the model S and X are the the super expensive ones. But yeah, good call, will see what my insurance guy says about it


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And I haven't really looked in to Hydrogen.. didn't even consider it, cuz part of the reason I wanted to go electric was to charge at home and never need a gas station again...well charge at home 90% of the time, I don't do many road trips but it's nice to know there's lots of charging options out there just in case.

Safety features comes off the liability.....they are cheaper on liability . Just when it comes to repair a veh that let’s say has damage from hail, Parts are more expensive to replace then my Chevy. Plus the front bumper for example if damaged because you hit a pole, you are looking at about 5k in repairs because the sensors also need replaced, my Chevy is around 1k if I smashed it in.

Ah, I see. But then, wouldn't the same be true for newer gas cars that have similar technologies? Like I was looking into the new Honda passport, that has honda's sensing tech standard. Seems like lots of other companies are starting to make that stuff standard too

I think Tesla is just expensive for parts, partly because they can be, and partly because the need more of their production capacity for actual vehicles

there will also be fewer generic parts around as they're still small in automotive terms so companies may not choose to do stuff for them, whereas if they've already got a big line of generic parts for Honda for example it makes sense to add some for the electric cars too compared to making them for a whole new manufacturer they wont have a set of buyers already lined up for

The danger for Tesla has always been that while they are good at inventing new technology, they aren't any good at making cars. Traditional car companies like Honda are great at making cars, and good at inventing new technology to put into them.