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2019/03/15 14:38:17
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
With the potential of a new CSM codex in the future and our one and only Warmaster Abbadon has returned in a new glorious miniature I was looking at my CSM and find them like virtually all MEQ a little... Weak.
My proposal is simple, same point cost but all CSM get Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword/ chainsword equiv weapon baseline. gives them a lot more bite in CC and makes them that flexible unit I adored back in 5th ed where my Spikey marines main advantage over Loyalist tacticals was I had Bolter, BP and CCW vs the loyalists Bolter and BP. (we're ignoring Grey Hunters in the most hated 5th ed Wolf codex)
What does everyone else think? I believe it would help with the issue of damage and let them duke it out at range with bolter drill FAQ and now in melee against most non dedicated CC units
2019/03/15 16:59:40
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
I have wanted that all along. The appeal of power armor despite disdain for marines is that they could function in both phases (unlike my tau force) but without a 2nd hit or chainsword there just isn't any point to CC. So yes I support your proposal, I'd even be ok with losing the pistol but keeping it is nice too.
2019/03/15 20:17:44
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: With the potential of a new CSM codex in the future and our one and only Warmaster Abbadon has returned in a new glorious miniature I was looking at my CSM and find them like virtually all MEQ a little... Weak.
My proposal is simple, same point cost but all CSM get Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword/ chainsword equiv weapon baseline. gives them a lot more bite in CC and makes them that flexible unit I adored back in 5th ed where my Spikey marines main advantage over Loyalist tacticals was I had Bolter, BP and CCW vs the loyalists Bolter and BP. (we're ignoring Grey Hunters in the most hated 5th ed Wolf codex)
What does everyone else think? I believe it would help with the issue of damage and let them duke it out at range with bolter drill FAQ and now in melee against most non dedicated CC units
Basically you want to give back their advantage they had over all these editions prior?
Not against it. Certainly but amping up the general A value like Heckington stated still needs to happen to make marines actual generalists.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/03/16 02:37:50
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: With the potential of a new CSM codex in the future and our one and only Warmaster Abbadon has returned in a new glorious miniature I was looking at my CSM and find them like virtually all MEQ a little... Weak.
My proposal is simple, same point cost but all CSM get Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword/ chainsword equiv weapon baseline. gives them a lot more bite in CC and makes them that flexible unit I adored back in 5th ed where my Spikey marines main advantage over Loyalist tacticals was I had Bolter, BP and CCW vs the loyalists Bolter and BP. (we're ignoring Grey Hunters in the most hated 5th ed Wolf codex)
What does everyone else think? I believe it would help with the issue of damage and let them duke it out at range with bolter drill FAQ and now in melee against most non dedicated CC units
I like it! Gives them a total of 4 strength 4 attacks over the course of a given turn. Far from game breaking. Not good enough at any given thing to really step on the toes of another unit. Forces them to expose themselves to melee. Makes them just a bit more lethal. Nice and simple. I like it.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2019/03/16 18:18:40
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
I think the CSM problem is deeper than that. First this edition is not friendly to power armor and most power armor units seem overpriced.
Moving past that however, GW has tried to resolve the differences in performance between CSM and loyalist SM by simply dropping points, but that is something of a futile approach. In the previous edition it was worse, but it still isn't great; you needed almost 17 CSM to equal 10 SM to have equivalent performance across the whole game. Consider loyalist assault squads that can be 10 strong, and leave off their jump packs. If you could add bolters how much would that add to the cost of the unit? -Maybe 10 points. A 10 point correction for CSM isn't enough.-Thats about all you're asking for here, and it isn't enough.
When you start to look at the statistical differences now between how CSM and tactical SM perform its better but even with the extra weapon you need about 50% more CSM than loyalists in a unit. Its unlikely GW would drop their cost to that level. The lack of Bolter, pistol, chainsword makes their performance drop considerably but it isn't enough to balancing things out either, just because of the volume of CSM you'll lose to get to the point you're taking advantage of the extra attack.
The unit that actually comes closest to tactical marines, is an undergunned squad of Chosen.That should give you some impression of how much of an uphill it is. Personally making the basic CSM squad into Chosen but a lower limit on the number of options that can be taken at a time is the most flavorful way of fixing the unit. It allows CSM to represent the more rag-tag organization of the Chaos Legions as well at the more piratical Renegade Chapters without disrupting the other aspects of the rules.
Otherwise I think you need more stratagems and units to buff CSM and more ways to debuff enemies.
2019/03/16 18:50:02
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/16 20:05:53
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/16 21:12:18
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/16 21:18:04
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/16 21:28:14
Subject: Re:Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
I've been making some thoughts on this as well. My first thought was to add the following to change the Legion Traits allowances.
If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, Infantry, Bikers, Helbrute units, as well as Daemon Engine units that are within 6" of a <Legion> Character ...
Then there is the issue of Legion Traits. Aside from Alpha Legion, most of the current are...mediocre at best. Most of these ideas are just tweak a bit, but some add a new thing.
Spoiler:
BLACK LEGION: BLACK CRUSADERS
Add 1 to the Leadership charactersitic of models with this trait. In addition, if a unit with this trait Advanced, it treats all Rapid Fire weapons as Assault weapons until the end of the turn, (e.g. a Rapid Fire 2 weaponn is trated as Assault 2) and do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: SIEGE LORDS
Enemy units attacked by units wthi this trait to not gain bonuses to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, you can re-roll failed wound rolls for units with this trait when they target a Building or a unit in cover.
NIGHT LORDS: TERROR TACTIC
Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs, to a maximum of -3. In addition, models with this add 1 to To Wound rolls with Melee weapons if they outnumber their opponents. Bikes, Terminators are counted as 2 models for this purpose, Cult of Destruction as 3, and Helbrute 5.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: FLAWLESS PERFECTION
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units taht have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. In addition, Heretic Astartes Infantry and Bikers hit rolls of 5 or 6 in Overwatch.
ALPHA LEGION: HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT
Your opponent must subtract 1 from hit rolls that target units with this trait if they are more than 12" away.
WORLD EATERS: BUTCHER'S NAILS
When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one addition atack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase. In addition, units with this rule may make a single Deny the Witch attempt, but only roll a single D6.
RENEGADE CHAPTERS: DARK RAIDERS
Units with this trait can Advance and charge in the same turn. In addition, they may select a single non-unique unit with the Adeptus Astartes keyword that does not have the Primaris keyword, Replacing all instances of Imperium with Chaos, <CHAPTER> with Renegade Chapter, Adeptus Astartes with Heretic Astartes. In Matched Play, use the points cost listed in the respective codex of the unit selected.
WORD BEARERS: PROFANE ZEAL
You can re-roll Morale tests for units with this trait. In addition, the first unit summoned via Daemonic Ritual each turn does not require Reinforcement Points to be spent.
Last bit would be to update Mutilators a bit. First would be the +1 T & W that Oblits got. Then, update their weapons to be S+2d3, ap -(d3+1), damage d3, and give each 6 attacks. Up their points cost to 75.
2019/03/16 21:32:56
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/16 21:43:31
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/16 22:51:23
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/17 01:51:37
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
And then those marines are forced to be veterans because you remove CSM from the main codex. I don't give a damn how Renegades are represented, sure, let em do that way, Chosen as a troop? All for it, but leave CSM there as is.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/17 03:15:19
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
And then those marines are forced to be veterans because you remove CSM from the main codex. I don't give a damn how Renegades are represented, sure, let em do that way, Chosen as a troop? All for it, but leave CSM there as is.
Yeah that's the point: the basic Chaos Marine profile makes no sense and should be removed in favor of Chosen, as the Renegades argument falls flat and anyone delving that deep in Chaos would've been represented by Legions anyway as Cult Legions cover that fine.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/17 03:31:46
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly. We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to. Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
And then those marines are forced to be veterans because you remove CSM from the main codex. I don't give a damn how Renegades are represented, sure, let em do that way, Chosen as a troop? All for it, but leave CSM there as is.
Yeah that's the point: the basic Chaos Marine profile makes no sense and should be removed in favor of Chosen, as the Renegades argument falls flat and anyone delving that deep in Chaos would've been represented by Legions anyway as Cult Legions cover that fine.
Except not all chaos marines that have fallen that deep are Veterans? What about marines that are newly made as CSM? Because new marines can still be recruited by warbands that aren't the legions but are still full on chaos...
You lose nothing by leaving regular CSM in as an option and making chosen troops. You lose absolutely nothing and renegades can still be a separate army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 03:32:33
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/17 14:03:13
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
And then those marines are forced to be veterans because you remove CSM from the main codex. I don't give a damn how Renegades are represented, sure, let em do that way, Chosen as a troop? All for it, but leave CSM there as is.
Yeah that's the point: the basic Chaos Marine profile makes no sense and should be removed in favor of Chosen, as the Renegades argument falls flat and anyone delving that deep in Chaos would've been represented by Legions anyway as Cult Legions cover that fine.
Except not all chaos marines that have fallen that deep are Veterans? What about marines that are newly made as CSM? Because new marines can still be recruited by warbands that aren't the legions but are still full on chaos...
You lose nothing by leaving regular CSM in as an option and making chosen troops. You lose absolutely nothing and renegades can still be a separate army.
New recruits aren't going to be able to fight on the same level as the Legions, so they'd be acting more like newer Renegades. Plus the Vets aren't gonna let new recruits live long anyway in order to save their skins and such, so if anything they should be a rare occurrence.
The basic Chaos Marine profile needs to be deleted, as it'll always bring the CSM codex down due to it being similar to a bunch of armies and balanced around that. In terms of design space, the profile is inferior to Chosen and Cultists already.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/17 19:29:48
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Limiting the Chosen's number of weapons total they can take is silly.
We just need to make Chosen straight up troops and give everything Vet stats at minimum. Let the Vanilla codex handle Renegades and BAM done.
Or just make both Chosen and CSM be troops and let people play with the army they want to play, if they want to play an army with a bunch of newly made CSM (Ya know, not all CSM are vets and not all are renegades), let em.
But sure, restricting armies is always a good thing.
Did you literally miss the last sentence of my post? I think you did.
Yes, I read it. Giving everything Vet stats makes no sense for base CSM, unless that applies to all SM, in which case, yes, I agree.
The Legions are Vets of the Long War (duh) and actually have experience from years of fighting and backstabbing (which in turn kinda affects how long their supposed new recruits live), and Renegades are not. Renegades operate more like Loyalist Scum, but all the sudden lose a bunch of units and gain ones they shouldn't just have access to.
Ergo, let Legions actually operate like they should via removing Renegades from the CSM codex, and make stuff Vet stats at minimum. Renegades are handled in the basic Vanilla codex via switching of keywords.
Not sure what doesn't make sense about that.
What doesn't make sense about that?
What about the warbands that aren't legions, but are full on chaos with all the chaos stuff? What about newly made CSM, because those do exist. There's an entire group that you aren't representing there.
An entire group that has fallen THAT far was gonna be represented by Legions rules as I propose it be done anyway. If they're super full-on Chaos, chances are they still don't have Autocannons on their Terminators and a bunch of Daemon Engines that you can run a whole army of them anyway, and if those things are being borrowed it's by another Legion making sure they do things properly.
I don't buy that you can't represent your wanted army under my proposal. It isn't like Renegades are properly represented and, if you think they are, you certainly haven't created a convincing argument.
And then those marines are forced to be veterans because you remove CSM from the main codex. I don't give a damn how Renegades are represented, sure, let em do that way, Chosen as a troop? All for it, but leave CSM there as is.
Yeah that's the point: the basic Chaos Marine profile makes no sense and should be removed in favor of Chosen, as the Renegades argument falls flat and anyone delving that deep in Chaos would've been represented by Legions anyway as Cult Legions cover that fine.
Except not all chaos marines that have fallen that deep are Veterans? What about marines that are newly made as CSM? Because new marines can still be recruited by warbands that aren't the legions but are still full on chaos...
You lose nothing by leaving regular CSM in as an option and making chosen troops. You lose absolutely nothing and renegades can still be a separate army.
New recruits aren't going to be able to fight on the same level as the Legions, so they'd be acting more like newer Renegades. Plus the Vets aren't gonna let new recruits live long anyway in order to save their skins and such, so if anything they should be a rare occurrence.
The basic Chaos Marine profile needs to be deleted, as it'll always bring the CSM codex down due to it being similar to a bunch of armies and balanced around that. In terms of design space, the profile is inferior to Chosen and Cultists already.
Or just give them the primaris statline like all marines should have, design space fixed.
But we're going in circles, let's merely agree to disagree and go on our ways.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
2019/03/18 01:01:07
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
fraser1191 wrote: Slayer, by your logic there is a finite amount of black legion, world eaters, deathguard, etc
Chaos marines have to replenish their ranks somehow right?
I mean there's no way they have better plot armour than imperial marines
Yeah, they do that via meatshields they don't expect to live long anyway, and those new recruits won't be able to fight like those Legions too well anyway. That's I suggested taking Renegades out of the CSM codex and using the Vanilla codex to represent them (yeah, somehow those Traitor Iron Hands aren't as tough anymore but they're faster!), and those would be a better way to supplement what you're looking for.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/18 08:24:03
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
fraser1191 wrote: Slayer, by your logic there is a finite amount of black legion, world eaters, deathguard, etc
Chaos marines have to replenish their ranks somehow right?
I mean there's no way they have better plot armour than imperial marines
Yeah, they do that via meatshields they don't expect to live long anyway, and those new recruits won't be able to fight like those Legions too well anyway. That's I suggested taking Renegades out of the CSM codex and using the Vanilla codex to represent them (yeah, somehow those Traitor Iron Hands aren't as tough anymore but they're faster!), and those would be a better way to supplement what you're looking for.
No actually you are wrong or have you forgotten the Honosu and the daemoncubala? Or however you pronunce that.
No regular CSM profile can exist easily, it would be better also if Chosen would be troops but there is no reason to just remove the regular csm profile imo.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/03/18 14:14:45
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
fraser1191 wrote: Slayer, by your logic there is a finite amount of black legion, world eaters, deathguard, etc
Chaos marines have to replenish their ranks somehow right?
I mean there's no way they have better plot armour than imperial marines
Yeah, they do that via meatshields they don't expect to live long anyway, and those new recruits won't be able to fight like those Legions too well anyway. That's I suggested taking Renegades out of the CSM codex and using the Vanilla codex to represent them (yeah, somehow those Traitor Iron Hands aren't as tough anymore but they're faster!), and those would be a better way to supplement what you're looking for.
No actually you are wrong or have you forgotten the Honosu and the daemoncubala? Or however you pronunce that.
No regular CSM profile can exist easily, it would be better also if Chosen would be troops but there is no reason to just
remove the regular csm profile imo.
Honsou is the exception to the rule because he's a primary villain (there's always one that excels after all) and you can argue how effective the Daemoncubula actually were.
There's also nothing to gain from keeping the Chaos Marine profile either, because there is already several armies that use the same exact profile as their troop, which means you have to constantly balance around that fact as well. This eliminates that problem entirely.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/18 17:49:19
Subject: Small change to Chaos Space Marines, What do you think?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: With the potential of a new CSM codex in the future and our one and only Warmaster Abbadon has returned in a new glorious miniature I was looking at my CSM and find them like virtually all MEQ a little... Weak.
My proposal is simple, same point cost but all CSM get Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword/ chainsword equiv weapon baseline.
I would like that a lot. I'm glad Chosen finally got the option again, but I'd like to see it for everybody.
I think there is a place for Chaos Renegades, but the previously loyal chapters of space marines and even those newly created CSM, neither are really all that well represented by the basic CSM squad.
Just giving them bolters, bolt pistols, and chainswords... doesn't do much about the inequality with loyalist marines, let alone MEQ in general.
