Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, I'd like to get some feedback before making request to the rules team. My intent is to improve viability of the army without swinging the pendulum above a solid choice.

Fiends of Slaanesh are really nice models with a cool ability that get easily shot off the board being only T4 Sv5++ W4 and a significant 42pts. Proposed solution is to give them a bodyguard rule like Shadowsun has with stealth suits. The intention is to prolong the lifespan of the fiends without denying the opponent from interacting with them outright or causing the opponents hits to fizzle. A justification is that they are similar size to Seekers and Slaaneshi units embrace all sensation including death and admiration (the those smexy fiends). I wouldn't mind if the ability below replaced disruptive song (-1 to enemy psy tests in 12") to prevent point inflation.
Lust for agony: Roll a D6 each time a model in this unit loses a wound whilst within 3" of a friendly unit of Seekers. On a 3+, a model from that unit can intercept that hit - the unit of Fiends of Slaanesh does not lose a wound but that unit suffers a mortal wound.

The other issue I have is that Daemons are horde-ish but lack a meaningful way to prevent morale loss. Nothing should be more fanatical than daemons, not even a WAAGH! (ok maybe that). Our current Icon of X has saved my hide 2/3 times so far but that luck can't keep up. I'd prefer to see smaller numbers of fleeing daemons so that the phase still has meaning without removing half a unit at once. This way I can lose 7 daemonettes and morale could still matter as I risk losing 1-4 more instead of 2-6.
Daemonic Icon: As slain daemons pass back into the warp, countless more lie in wait to replace them. When taking a morale test if you roll a 5 no models flee and d3 slain X are added to the unit, if you roll a 6 no models flee and d6 slain X are added to the unit instead.

This next proposal could be getting greedy. It's a stratagem because I feel like the daemons codex is a little lacking in quantity unless taking undivided. Also it's kind of odd so I won't be surprised if there are objections or alterations in feedback. Inherently the risk is getting in range of the enemy at the benefit of them missing. 1CP
Unbridled Urgency: The denizens of Slaanesh's realm know that there is no limit to how far one aspect can be pushed, and a favorite is speed. At the start of an opponents shooting phase select a Slaanesh Daemons unit that is not within 1" of an enemy unit, that unit moves up to 3" towards the closest enemy unit. Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target the selected unit this phase.

Wait, this thread isn't space marine related at all! Is that still allowed? ;D

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

Fiends of Slaanesh are really nice models with a cool ability that get easily shot off the board being only T4 Sv5++ W4 and a significant 42pts. Proposed solution is to give them a bodyguard rule like Shadowsun has with stealth suits. The intention is to prolong the lifespan of the fiends without denying the opponent from interacting with them outright or causing the opponents hits to fizzle. A justification is that they are similar size to Seekers and Slaaneshi units embrace all sensation including death and admiration (the those smexy fiends). I wouldn't mind if the ability below replaced disruptive song (-1 to enemy psy tests in 12") to prevent point inflation.
Lust for agony: Roll a D6 each time a model in this unit loses a wound whilst within 3" of a friendly unit of Seekers. On a 3+, a model from that unit can intercept that hit - the unit of Fiends of Slaanesh does not lose a wound but that unit suffers a mortal wound.

I'm not sure I agree that this particular change is needed. To quickly compare them to dark eldar wracks, wracks are 36 points for 4 wounds at T4 with a 5++ on a much slower and somewhat less stabby platform. Paying 6 points more for the extra killyness and mobility doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Still, it's true that squishy melee units that have to deepstrike or run across the table to reach combat probably won't reach melee unscathed. Would a mild points reduction perhaps be a more elegant solution? Your suggestion wouldn't break the game or anything, but it would result in a fair bit of extra rolling. Plus, I'm not sure why fiends of slaanesh would warrant a body guard rule. Typically, body guard rules are due to either the bodyguard being strongly themed as such or the unit being protected compelling extreme self-sacrifice (drones protecting organics, sslyth being hired specifically to guard a body, Shadowsun being a living legend that any tau would protect for the greater good, 'stealer cultists being hypnotized abominations, etc.) Am I forgetting a bit of fluff that would make a seeker want to give up its existence to protect a fiend?

The other issue I have is that Daemons are horde-ish but lack a meaningful way to prevent morale loss. Nothing should be more fanatical than daemons, not even a WAAGH! (ok maybe that). Our current Icon of X has saved my hide 2/3 times so far but that luck can't keep up. I'd prefer to see smaller numbers of fleeing daemons so that the phase still has meaning without removing half a unit at once. This way I can lose 7 daemonettes and morale could still matter as I risk losing 1-4 more instead of 2-6.
Daemonic Icon: As slain daemons pass back into the warp, countless more lie in wait to replace them. When taking a morale test if you roll a 5 no models flee and d3 slain X are added to the unit, if you roll a 6 no models flee and d6 slain X are added to the unit instead.

This seems too powerful when you think of it in terms of something like fiends. Lose two models in a unit, roll a 5+, then get ~90 points worth of units back as a result. Even in the context of daemonettes this feels like it's probably a bit much. Morale has its issues, but it's also part of the counterplay against horde armies. Especially when those hordes can get off turn 2 assaults pretty easily. I haven't done much with my daemons this edition, but isn't the point of large units to deepstrike them and hope for a 9" charge so that you can take advantage of their large-squad bonus? If so, that would mean that you're already mitigating the morale issue by gambling on that 9" charge. You're probably not running a large, morale-susceptible blob up the table. And if you are, why not just split that squad into several smaller squads that can't be impacted by morale as much?

That said, what about just making them leadership 10? It makes it so that morale is only an issue for large squads, plus it makes them resistant to certain psychic and psychological abilities that they would reasonably be resistant to.

This next proposal could be getting greedy. It's a stratagem because I feel like the daemons codex is a little lacking in quantity unless taking undivided. Also it's kind of odd so I won't be surprised if there are objections or alterations in feedback. Inherently the risk is getting in range of the enemy at the benefit of them missing. 1CP
Unbridled Urgency: The denizens of Slaanesh's realm know that there is no limit to how far one aspect can be pushed, and a favorite is speed. At the start of an opponents shooting phase select a Slaanesh Daemons unit that is not within 1" of an enemy unit, that unit moves up to 3" towards the closest enemy unit. Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target the selected unit this phase.

I feel like I might be missing what you're going for with this one. Is the idea that moving closer to the enemy is some sort of drawback? Because the sharp claws and lack of guns on most slaaneshi units makes me think that getting closer isn't generally a bad thing unless a measly 3" was exactly the distance needed to bring you into rapid fire or flamer range or something. So that's a pretty situational drawback if it's meant to actually be a drawback.

As written, this would technically let you move 3" closer to the enemy in order to end up within 1" of them, thus preventing them from shooting and effectively putting you in melee range. But if you were 3" away from the enemy at the start of your opponent's shooting phase, it either means that they messed up by letting you pull this off or that you just rolled snake eyes on a charge roll and then failed the command point reroll.

Imposing a -1 to hit penalty is reasonable. Eldar do it all the time with a 2CP strat. Maybe just rip that off instead? Alternatively, a 2CP strat that lets you move a bit more than 3" (maybe 7"?) at the start of your opponent's shooting phase might let you pull off some graceful slaaneshi evasion as your keeper of secrets or daemonette squad pirouettes safely behind some ruins and out of line of sight.

Glad to see a thread that isn't about space marines.

Thanks for all the comments Wyldhunt!

I am not familiar with wracks, and it's good to know that point wise external balance is not too wild. I generally prefer to fix function over points because making something cheaper or more expensive changes the army but the problem persists, making that unit unfeasible to run at all or totally spam worthy. You are right that bodyguarding is usually for characters only, then again characters rarely have any use for it unless over 10 wounds (Cough bloodthirsters cough). I had shadowsun use it a lot in my last game due to a horde of GSC snipers but otherwise never touched it. Overall I'd consider bodyguarding for a wider array of non-character vital units that have a specific vulnerability. In this case fiends because their 'enemies can't fall back' ability could be the crux of an army.

You are right that an icon would be too good on fiends, I did not mean to imply that fiends would gain access to it. It would stay limited to infantry/cavalry and cost points as is. Greater daemons have an ability that gives ld10, I didn't want to step on toes. I proposed this change because currently we get d6 models back on a 1, which is usually a pass anyways. Large squads are taken because they gain an extra attack at size 20. Deepstriking is more Khornes thing. Overall my goal wasn't to make them immune to morale, instead it was to not be absolutely obliterated by it.

It struck me a few minutes after posting that the movement would be too helpful in the long run. I originally wanted to make the -1 specifically available to advancing units but strats generally only persist for 1 round or whole game. It could be a power instead.

I think maybe part of the issue is that their special rule to prevent fallback are really powerful, it effectively makes many armies special rules about fallback and shoot/change useless.
The difficulty is that such an ability has to carry an appropriate points cost, given how few limitations it has. However this means that the models qith such an ability will tend to underperform when compaired to other models.

Esentially it reduces the win condition to make it into position to take advantage of the rule and your going to win, fail and the enemy wins.

Now if the ability was more nuanced then the cost of the ability could be reduced and hopefully with cheaper models the game becomes less balanced around that single tipping point, so the balance can ebb and flow from player to player. Right now their are a number of armies who are balanced on a knife edge due to the poor construction of their special flavour rules.

Also the current only avoiding of this rule is via the fly keyword which has it's own balance issues as it's so often a get to do something that no-one else can rule that in many cases it probably shouldn't be.

I tend to agree with the above.

It's almost impossible to actually use Fiends' anti-Fall Back ability 'cause they just don't survive being swung at, which means you pay through the nose for a powerful ability that almost never goes off.

In my experience, you can pin a unit if you multi-charge Seekers/Chariots and Fiends into the lines of someone who has never played against Slaanesh Daemons before but they will learn to target the Fiends pretty quickly, so it will only work once even against a noob.

The lack of improvements with Slaanesh as whole has led all its units on a race downward as their units have been made cheaper and cheaper in an attempt to align them to where their capabilities are. So Slaanesh definitely needs something.

I think what Slaanesh needs most is a way to improve survivability, but obviously not in the same way other gods do. Tzneetch has invulnerable saves, Nurgle have feel no pain and toughness... Slaanesh used to have rules to represent the intoxicating allure that almost entrances mortals with an allure to all that is Slaanesh.

I agree with what you touch on, I think Slaanesh should impose more minuses to hit, atleast from shooting. Its in line with the little hints of eldar soul origin of Slaanesh's power. Maybe its like grenades, or sirens, or just daemon mojo, but it should come from a number of places and underpin how slaanesh armies play.

I think quicksilver swiftness is one of the big problems, slaanesh daemons effectively have no trait unlike the other three gods daemons, 95% of the time quicksilver swiftness does nothing, because anything that assaults you will wipe out the unit assaulted due to poor durability, and if you assault someone else and they survive they aren't going to stay in combat with you they will pull-back and then shot you with their other units.

I feel this rule needs to be completely changed personally I'd make the advance and charge that is currently attached to the herald locus the main trait (so that they can actually storm across the board fast enough to be a theat), and then make this the locus ability of the heralds if playing a mono detachment.

Current trait = always hits first
Current locus = advance and charge within 6 of a herald

change it to

trait = advance and charge
locus = always hits first within 6 of a herald

 Rydria wrote:
I think quicksilver swiftness is one of the big problems, slaanesh daemons effectively have no trait unlike the other three gods daemons, 95% of the time quicksilver swiftness does nothing, because anything that assaults you will wipe out the unit assaulted due to poor durability, and if you assault someone else and they survive they aren't going to stay in combat with you they will pull-back and then shot you with their other units.

I feel this rule needs to be completely changed personally I'd make the advance and charge that is currently attached to the herald locus the main trait (so that they can actually storm across the board fast enough to be a theat), and then make this the locus ability of the heralds if playing a mono detachment.

Current trait = always hits first
Current locus = advance and charge within 6 of a herald

change it to

trait = advance and charge
locus = always hits first within 6 of a herald

I can agree with this if Emperors Children get a different trait so that there isn't total overlap for daemon legion units.