Astartes Banner

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Goldenbrew**

As an example if I had a Vanguard Veteran Squad of 10 all armed with Power Fists & Storm Shields, so they've no guns only grenades for ranged attacks and they're next to an Ancient with the Astartes Banner. Then the VV Squad isn't in CC and is shot by a unit resulting in say 4 models being slain, of the 4 slain 2 get to make a final attack. As the unit isn't in CC it can only make a shooting attack but seeing as the unit has no guns and only grenades can these 2 models both throw grenades or are they still restricted to only 1 model per unit?

Further to this if the above is not possible for more than 1 model to throw a grenade is the following possible. 1 model got a final attack after being slain from 1 enemy attack and used a grenade and then another model gets a final attack after being slain from a different enemy attack could that model use a grenade again? As technically this is a different shooting phase as the model was slain at a different time.

**JohnnyHell**

They can each throw a grenade, as it’s not the unit being activated, it’s special permission for one dead model to fire.

**p5freak**

Your dead model cant throw a grenade. You can only throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapon. No weapon to fire, no grenade throwing.

Grenade
Grenades are handheld explosive
devices that a warrior throws at the
enemy while their squad mates provide
covering fire.
Each time a unit shoots, a single model in
the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any
other weapon.

**Goldenbrew**

p5freak wrote:
Your dead model cant throw a grenade. You can only throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapon. No weapon to fire, no grenade throwing.

Grenade
Grenades are handheld explosive
devices that a warrior throws at the
enemy while their squad mates provide
covering fire.
Each time a unit shoots, a single model in
the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any
other weapon.

Just to clarify even in a normal shooting phase they're unable to throw a single grenade?

**p5freak**

Goldenbrew wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Your dead model cant throw a grenade. You can only throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapon. No weapon to fire, no grenade throwing.

Grenade
Grenades are handheld explosive
devices that a warrior throws at the
enemy while their squad mates provide
covering fire.
Each time a unit shoots, a single model in
the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any
other weapon.

Just to clarify even in a normal shooting phase they're unable to throw a single grenade?

Yes, you must have a ranged weapon to be able to throw a grenade.

**Goldenbrew**

So if 1 model had a ranged weapon could another throw a grenade or only the model with the ranged weapon instead of firing it?

**JohnnyHell**

p5freak wrote:
Your dead model cant throw a grenade. You can only throw a grenade instead of firing any other weapon. No weapon to fire, no grenade throwing.

Grenade
Grenades are handheld explosive
devices that a warrior throws at the
enemy while their squad mates provide
covering fire.
Each time a unit shoots, a single model in
the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any
other weapon.

That’s simply not what the rule means.

**BaconCatBug**

I mean, if we're going to play wibbly wobbly with the rules anyway, the FAQ says you can do things "instead" of an impossible thing.

**p5freak**

Goldenbrew wrote:So if 1 model had a ranged weapon could another throw a grenade or only the model with the ranged weapon instead of firing it?

No. The model who shoots must have a ranged weapon.

JohnnyHell wrote:
That’s simply not what the rule means.

RAW, a model without a ranged weapon cant throw a grenade.

BaconCatBug wrote:I mean, if we're going to play wibbly wobbly with the rules anyway, the FAQ says you can do things "instead" of an impossible thing.

What are you talking about ?

**JohnnyHell**

p5freak wrote:
Goldenbrew wrote:So if 1 model had a ranged weapon could another throw a grenade or only the model with the ranged weapon instead of firing it?

No. The model who shoots must have a ranged weapon.

JohnnyHell wrote:
That’s simply not what the rule means.

RAW, a model without a ranged weapon cant throw a grenade.

BaconCatBug wrote:I mean, if we're going to play wibbly wobbly with the rules anyway, the FAQ says you can do things "instead" of an impossible thing.

What are you talking about ?

You are parsing the sentence incorrectly, else you’d be right. As things are, you’re not. And it’s not even the topic of the thread, and highly hypothetical anyway. I’d laugh openly at an opponent if they tried to claim what you’re claiming.

**p5freak**

JohnnyHell wrote:

You are parsing the sentence incorrectly, else you’d be right. As things are, you’re not. And it’s not even the topic of the thread, and highly hypothetical anyway. I’d laugh openly at an opponent if they tried to claim what you’re claiming.

The topic is if a model can throw a grenade when it dies via the ancient banner ability. You have to consider all rules to answer that question. It cant, if it doesnt have a ranged weapon. I also laugh at rules that i dont like, but that unfortunately doesnt change them to something i would like.

**Goldenbrew**

JohnnyHell wrote:
p5freak wrote:

You are parsing the sentence incorrectly, else you’d be right. As things are, you’re not. And it’s not even the topic of the thread, and highly hypothetical anyway. I’d laugh openly at an opponent if they tried to claim what you’re claiming.

He's correct on this. When it refers to any weapon it applies to all weapons available to the unit hence why you can not throw a grenade after advancing even if the unit is equipped with assault weapons as you can not fire any other weapon types.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways getting back on topic.

If I was to change the 10 man VV Squad so that 7 were equipped with Power Fists & Storm Shields and the other 3 had say Plasma Pistols & Power Fists making it possible for 1 of the 3 to throw a grenade.

1) Is it possible to take saving throws on the Storm Shield 3++ but then allocate the failed save to the model with out a Storm Shield?

2) If 2 or 3 of the models equipped with Plasma Pistols are slain from the same enemy attack and 2 or more get the final attack can they all throw grenades?

3) If 2 is not possible, is it possible for 1 to throw a grenade in a final attack from 1 enemy attack and then another model to throw a grenade again in a final attack from a different enemy attack?

**p5freak**

Goldenbrew wrote:

1) Is it possible to take saving throws on the Storm Shield 3++ but then allocate the failed save to the model with out a Storm Shield?

No.

Goldenbrew wrote:

2) If 2 or 3 of the models equipped with Plasma Pistols are slain from the same enemy attack and 2 or more get the final attack can they all throw grenades?

Every model that has a ranged weapon can throw a grenade if you roll a 4+ for it with the astartes banner ability.

Goldenbrew wrote:

3) If 2 is not possible, is it possible for 1 to throw a grenade in a final attack from 1 enemy attack and then another model to throw a grenade again in a final attack from a different enemy attack?

You roll a dice every time a model dies to see if it can fire from the astartes banner ability. Doesnt matter from which enemy unit the fire comes from.

**JohnnyHell**

p5freak wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:

You are parsing the sentence incorrectly, else you’d be right. As things are, you’re not. And it’s not even the topic of the thread, and highly hypothetical anyway. I’d laugh openly at an opponent if they tried to claim what you’re claiming.

The topic is if a model can throw a grenade when it dies via the ancient banner ability. You have to consider all rules to answer that question. It cant, if it doesnt have a ranged weapon. I also laugh at rules that i dont like, but that unfortunately doesnt change them to something i would like.

Ok, and as I've explained your incorrect parsing of the rules prevents you from seeing your take is not, in fact RAW, but rather a misreading.

Grenade
Grenades are handheld explosive
devices that a warrior throws at the
enemy while their squad mates provide
covering fire.
Each time a unit shoots, a single model in
the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any
other weapon.

Would a model throwing a grenade be firing any other weapon? No. So it's fulfilling the condition. Stop pretending it says "must also possess a gun", because it doesn't say that.

**BaconCatBug**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Would a model throwing a grenade be firing any other weapon? No. So it's fulfilling the condition. Stop pretending it says "must also possess a gun", because it doesn't say that.

If I have only a knife, and I throw a grenade, am I doing it instead of firing a gun?

**Goldenbrew**

Thanks bud, looks like I'll be dropping some storm shields to get the melta bombs on this squad.

**Ghaz**

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?

A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

The same principle applies to grenades as well. A model can throw a grenade even if they do not have a ranged weapon.

**JohnnyHell**

BaconCatBug wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Would a model throwing a grenade be firing any other weapon? No. So it's fulfilling the condition. Stop pretending it says "must also possess a gun", because it doesn't say that.
If I have only a knife, and I throw a grenade, am I doing it instead of firing a gun?

Luckily, everything you typed just there isn't rules, so doesn't need considering.

Ghaz above has the right of it.

**p5freak**

Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?

A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

The same principle applies to grenades as well. A model can throw a grenade even if they do not have a ranged weapon.

Shooting is not using an ability. This doesnt apply here.

**JohnnyHell**

You’re gonna die on this hill, huh?

**Ghaz**

p5freak wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?

A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

The same principle applies to grenades as well. A model can throw a grenade even if they do not have a ranged weapon.

Shooting is not using an ability. This doesnt apply here.

And you've not shown a single written rule that says you can't throw a grenade if you don't have a ranged weapon. As everyone else has said you're reading the rule wrong and not as it was written. The FAQ more than amply shows that you can take an action that is 'instead of shooting' even if you cannot shoot.

**Korbee11**

p5freak wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:

You are parsing the sentence incorrectly, else you’d be right. As things are, you’re not. And it’s not even the topic of the thread, and highly hypothetical anyway. I’d laugh openly at an opponent if they tried to claim what you’re claiming.

The topic is if a model can throw a grenade when it dies via the ancient banner ability. You have to consider all rules to answer that question. It cant, if it doesnt have a ranged weapon. I also laugh at rules that i dont like, but that unfortunately doesnt change them to something i would like.

In a strange way, you are both wrong, and right, at the same time.
You are correct, a model cannot throw a Grenade, if it doesn't have a ranged weapon. As at that point, it doesn't have a Grenade to throw.

Grenades are a ranged weapon. Ergo, you cannot be equipped with grenades and not have a ranged weapon. It is impossible.

I do not have my rule book on hand, however, the readily available battle primer says this:

There are five types of ranged weapon:
Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and
Pistol.

Given that Grenade is in that list, it is a ranged weapon.

Edits: Spelling errors and more clear structure.

**Goldenbrew**

So by that premise a 10 man VV Squad all equipped with Power Fists & Storm Shields can throw 1 grenade in a normal shooting phase, which can be the 1 model with Melta Bombs. Then when any of these models are slain in range of the Astartes Banner and receive a final attack they can all throw a grenade regardless of how many get a final attack. So potentially if the entire unit is slain and all get the final attack this unit could fire out 9 Krak Grenades and 1 Melta Bomb before being removed. Is that correct?

**insaniak**

BaconCatBug wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Would a model throwing a grenade be firing any other weapon? No. So it's fulfilling the condition. Stop pretending it says "must also possess a gun", because it doesn't say that.
If I have only a knife, and I throw a grenade, am I doing it instead of firing a gun?

In the context of a rules system where 'instead of' has always (as in, for the last 30 years and at least 7 editions of the game) meant 'at the time when you potentially could' rather than relying on an actual immediate ability, yes, your throwing the grenade instead of firing a gun.

Regardless of how you can choose to interpret the written statement outside of that context, that's how GW have always used it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goldenbrew wrote:
So by that premise a 10 man VV Squad all equipped with Power Fists & Storm Shields can throw 1 grenade in a normal shooting phase, which can be the 1 model with Melta Bombs. Then when any of these models are slain in range of the Astartes Banner and receive a final attack they can all throw a grenade regardless of how many get a final attack. So potentially if the entire unit is slain and all get the final attack this unit could fire out 9 Krak Grenades and 1 Melta Bomb before being removed. Is that correct?

Sounds about right, yes.

**alextroy**

And just incase you are looking for some precedence on each model throwing a Grenade as they die:

WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES Official Update Version 1.3 wrote:Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade, or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

**Kall3m0n**

insaniak wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Would a model throwing a grenade be firing any other weapon? No. So it's fulfilling the condition. Stop pretending it says "must also possess a gun", because it doesn't say that.
If I have only a knife, and I throw a grenade, am I doing it instead of firing a gun?

In the context of a rules system where 'instead of' has always (as in, for the last 30 years and at least 7 editions of the game) meant 'at the time when you potentially could' rather than relying on an actual immediate ability, yes, your throwing the grenade instead of firing a gun.

Regardless of how you can choose to interpret the written statement outside of that context, that's how GW have always used it.
.

"instead of' has always (as in, for the last 30 years and at least 7 editions of the game) meant 'at the time when you potentially could' " This is true, though for rules lawyering, this needs to be explicitly said by GW in an official document, because just because it has been that way before doesn't mean it's that way now.
If it DID say "at the time when you potentially could" there wouldn't be a discussion.

I am actually in the camp that says that you don't need a gun to throw a grenade. I see it as "Choose a ranged weapon to shoot with. If you don't have a ranged weapon, throw a grenade. IF you do have a weapon but still want to throw a grenade, throw a grenade."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

alextroy wrote:
And just incase you are looking for some precedence on each model throwing a Grenade as they die:

WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES Official Update Version 1.3 wrote:Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade, or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

THat is of lesser argument. The big argument now is weather a model without a gun can choose to throw a grenade "instead of" shooting with its gun.

**JohnnyHell**

I give up... the restriction is that you can’t fire other guns if you throw a grenade, not that you must own a gun to throw a grenade. Reading a rule incorrectly doesn’t make it an ‘interpretation’ or ‘an argument’... it just means one guy can’t parse English correctly.

**insaniak**

Kall3m0n wrote:

"instead of' has always (as in, for the last 30 years and at least 7 editions of the game) meant 'at the time when you potentially could' " This is true, though for rules lawyering, this needs to be explicitly said by GW in an official document, because just because it has been that way before doesn't mean it's that way now.

It really doesn't. It's nice when they clarify it, but it's a bit like the 'within' debate that also keeps happening despite GW using the same language for 30 years on that as well.

The language is only unclear if you choose to use the interpretation that doesn't actually make any sense.

The big argument now is weather a model without a gun can choose to throw a grenade "instead of" shooting with its gun.

There is no argument there. Of course a model without a gun can choose to throw a grenade. The grenade is thrown instead of using a gun. If they don't have a gun, that's proof positive right there that they're not going to be using one. So they're free to throw the grenade.

**BaconCatBug**

Shower Thought: If after 30 years, the same language still causes issues, perhaps change that language?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
There is no argument there. Of course a model without a gun can choose to throw a grenade. The grenade is thrown instead of using a gun. If they don't have a gun, that's proof positive right there that they're not going to be using one. So they're free to throw the grenade.

Except in English it's also acceptable to conclude if you cannot do A, you cannot do B instead of A.

**insaniak**

You're unlikely to ever see a version of 40K where they write the rules specifically to counter people deliberately taking them out of context in order to break them.