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Hey Gang,



So I had this discussion with a player in a small GT recently. We resolved it amicably, but I wanted to throw it out on the interwebs for feedback.

I'm running a Blood Angels Death Company with a Sanguinary Priest. DC have Thunder Hammers. Sanguinary gives +1 to Strength in a 6" bubble.

Question: Do you add the Strength before multiplying by x2 for the Thunder Hammer (for total of 10 strength) or after the Thunder Hammer (for a total of 9)?

Just curious what order you would resolve those two buffs. Thoughts?



--- Wargboyz

First you calculate the characteristic, then you calculate the weapon strength, which is different.

The aura buff is to the characteristic, not the weapon. So you add that first. Then to get the strength of the actual attack, you multiply by 2.

Note that if the aura said to increase the strength of the weapon rather than the model's strength, you would multiply before adding, as when they are applied to the same thing then that is the order to use. The key here is that a model's strength and the attack strength are different things.

Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

In this instance, this is not correct. See my post above for explanation.

 Stux wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

In this instance, this is not correct. See my post above for explanation.

I understand....however....

I can't give you reference right now, but I'm 99.5% sure that this scenario appeared in an FAQ and workshop confirmed you follow BODMAS.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

In this instance, this is not correct. See my post above for explanation.

I understand....however....

I can't give you reference right now, but I'm 99.5% sure that this scenario appeared in an FAQ and workshop confirmed you follow BODMAS.

If there is such an FAQ, then fair enough

However, as a counterpoint to this: imagine it's not an aura. Say it's a warlord trait to increase your strength by 1. So the Space Marine Captain has 5 strength. Would you still feel their thunder hammer attacks would be strength 9?

 Stux wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

In this instance, this is not correct. See my post above for explanation.

I understand....however....

I can't give you reference right now, but I'm 99.5% sure that this scenario appeared in an FAQ and workshop confirmed you follow BODMAS.

If there is such an FAQ, then fair enough

However, as a counterpoint to this: imagine it's not an aura. Say it's a warlord trait to increase your strength by 1. So the Space Marine Captain has 5 strength. Would you still feel their thunder hammer attacks would be strength 9?

Good point. I suppose my thought process would be if the strength is changed before the models arrives on table or not. With aura's the model arrives on the table (even the model with the aura) with say strength 4. The aura is a modifier. (Which i'm fairly certain is what the FAQ stated, modifiers are resolved in BODMAS).

However is a warlord trait counted as a modifier or do they arrive with strength 5. If the former then yes it would follow BODMAS, but if the latter i'd be inclined to give them S10 with a TH.

A warlord trait like that would be a modifier yes. The game doesn't, to my knowledge, make a distinction between permanent/temporary modifiers or the timing of modifiers.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

In this instance, this is not correct. See my post above for explanation.

I understand....however....

I can't give you reference right now, but I'm 99.5% sure that this scenario appeared in an FAQ and workshop confirmed you follow BODMAS.

You do, but you follow it twice. Once for the characteristic, then once for the weapon.

It work same for Might of Heroes? For example, a Warlord Captain of the Salamanders with his warlord trait would have S5, then with MOH he would have S6. With the Thinder Hammer or a Power Fist, would he have S12 attacking with the TH?

Alex_85 wrote:
It work same for Might of Heroes? For example, a Warlord Captain of the Salamanders with his warlord trait would have S5, then with MOH he would have S6. With the Thinder Hammer or a Power Fist, would he have S12 attacking with the TH?

Yes, that is my position. Because you need to know what the Characteristic of the model is before you can calculate the strength of the attack.

Alex_85 wrote:
It work same for Might of Heroes? For example, a Warlord Captain of the Salamanders with his warlord trait would have S5, then with MOH he would have S6. With the Thinder Hammer or a Power Fist, would he have S12 attacking with the TH?

Looking at the trait, the trait is a modifier adding +1 strength so it would follow the x2 then +1. So i would be inclined for S11 when swinging with a TH.

But I'd have to find the FAQ it came from to give a definite answer and I don't really have the time to trawl through 100 or so FAQ pages.

I could be wrong but I am fairly confident in modifiers all happen at same time and are resolved in BODMAS.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:
It work same for Might of Heroes? For example, a Warlord Captain of the Salamanders with his warlord trait would have S5, then with MOH he would have S6. With the Thinder Hammer or a Power Fist, would he have S12 attacking with the TH?

Looking at the trait, the trait is a modifier adding +1 strength so it would follow the x2 then +1. So i would be inclined for S11 when swinging with a TH.

But I'd have to find the FAQ it came from to give a definite answer and I don't really have the time to trawl through 100 or so FAQ pages.

I could be wrong but I am fairly confident in modifiers all happen at same time and are resolved in BODMAS.

You are right that they do, but these modifiers are applying to different things, so BODMAS doesn't apply. One affects the Strength of the model, one the Strength of the attack.

From the Designer's Commentary

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic.


This is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks everyone for pitching in.


Regards,
---Wargboyz

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:
It work same for Might of Heroes? For example, a Warlord Captain of the Salamanders with his warlord trait would have S5, then with MOH he would have S6. With the Thinder Hammer or a Power Fist, would he have S12 attacking with the TH?

Looking at the trait, the trait is a modifier adding +1 strength so it would follow the x2 then +1. So i would be inclined for S11 when swinging with a TH.

But I'd have to find the FAQ it came from to give a definite answer and I don't really have the time to trawl through 100 or so FAQ pages.

I could be wrong but I am fairly confident in modifiers all happen at same time and are resolved in BODMAS.

From the Designer's Commentary:

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a
basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the
effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that
doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength
characteristic. That model’s current Strength
is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a
weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be
resolved at Strength 10.

Edit: didn't see that post the post quoting this already when I started to go wading through the FAQs to find it. Ork-en Man posted up while I was searching. If would be nice if thing like this were just put in the Main Rulebook FAQ.

Like doctortom said, as per the DC you calculate the base characteristic first (Multiply then Add), then apply any weapon buffs (Multiply then Add).

How much is x2 +1 ? Is it x3 ?

The bloodthirster of insensate rage has a weapon which is S x2. Then he has the unstoppable ferocity rule which says you add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

Unstoppable Ferocity
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

The DC FAQ posted by doctortom does not apply here, because it tells us how to modify the characteristic of a model. The UF rule modifies the weapon strength.

Which is a refreshing difference from prior editions that applied all multiply/divide before applying all +/-.

-

 p5freak wrote:
How much is x2 +1 ? Is it x3 ?

The bloodthirster of insensate rage has a weapon which is S x2. Then he has the unstoppable ferocity rule which says you add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

Unstoppable Ferocity
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

The DC FAQ posted by doctortom does not apply here, because it tells us how to modify the characteristic of a model. The UF rule modifies the weapon strength.

The FAQ does tell you how to modify the weapon strength as well as how to modify the characteristic. It says you do that after you modify the model's base strength. In this case, if everything is modifying just the weapon, or in cases where you are modifying just the base characteristic, you follow the Primer's statement of multiplication and division before addition and subtraction.

 p5freak wrote:
How much is x2 +1 ? Is it x3 ?

The bloodthirster of insensate rage has a weapon which is S x2. Then he has the unstoppable ferocity rule which says you add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

Unstoppable Ferocity
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

The DC FAQ posted by doctortom does not apply here, because it tells us how to modify the characteristic of a model. The UF rule modifies the weapon strength.

It doesn't matter, because you've got not modifiers to your characteristics anyway, and your weapon is now S:x2+1, which means to double, then add 1 as per the BRB. Weapon characteristics are still characteristics.

"You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction."
"The weapons that a unit comes equipped with are described using a set of characteristics as follows:"

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

This was the case for 5th - 7th. For example, nobz with furious charge got +1 to strength after their power klaws x 2. So, their power klaws were str 9 (4x2+1, not 4+1 x 2). This was specifically called out in the rule book, I believe.

This is no longer the case. So, a str 6 base warboss a power klaw and fist of gork psychic power (+2 strength) is actually strength 16 ( 6 + 2 x 2), not 14 (6x2 +2).

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Workshop use BODMAS for their rules and changes. (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction).

So if you have a marine with +1 strength and a thunder hammer. The profile you have are 4, x2 and +1. So you would 4x2 = 8 then +1 to 9.

Hope this helps

This was the case for 5th - 7th. For example, nobz with furious charge got +1 to strength after their power klaws x 2. So, their power klaws were str 9 (4x2+1, not 4+1 x 2). This was specifically called out in the rule book, I believe.

This is no longer the case. So, a str 6 base warboss a power klaw and fist of gork psychic power (+2 strength) is actually strength 16 ( 6 + 2 x 2), not 14 (6x2 +2).

Because weapons have their own Strength modifiers that apply after any modifiers affecting your base characteristics. A Marine with +1 to S and a Thunder hammer is actually S5, which is then doubled. If the power gave the Thunder Hammer a +1, it would be S4, which is then doubled, plus 1.

 doctortom wrote:


The FAQ does tell you how to modify the weapon strength as well as how to modify the characteristic. It says you do that after you modify the model's base strength. In this case, if everything is modifying just the weapon, or in cases where you are modifying just the base characteristic, you follow the Primer's statement of multiplication and division before addition and subtraction.

No, the FAQ doesnt tell how to modify the weapon strength. It tells how to modify the models strength, but the strength of the model doesnt get modified at all by the UF rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It doesn't matter, because you've got no modifiers to your characteristics anyway, and your weapon is now S:x2+1, which means to double, then add 1 as per the BRB. Weapon characteristics are still characteristics.

"You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction."

Ok, the UF rule modifies the characteristic of the weapon, and only the weapon. The model itself is unaffected. There is only one modifier, which is +1, no multiplication or division. So x2 +1 is x3.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


The FAQ does tell you how to modify the weapon strength as well as how to modify the characteristic. It says you do that after you modify the model's base strength. In this case, if everything is modifying just the weapon, or in cases where you are modifying just the base characteristic, you follow the Primer's statement of multiplication and division before addition and subtraction.

No, the FAQ doesnt tell how to modify the weapon strength. It tells how to modify the models strength, but the strength of the model doesnt get modified at all by the UF rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It doesn't matter, because you've got no modifiers to your characteristics anyway, and your weapon is now S:x2+1, which means to double, then add 1 as per the BRB. Weapon characteristics are still characteristics.

"You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction."

Ok, the UF rule modifies the characteristic of the weapon, and only the weapon. The model itself is unaffected. There is only one modifier, which is +1, no multiplication or division. So x2 +1 is x3.

Did... did you not read the rulebook where it says to apply multiplication first and then addition?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Did... did you not read the rulebook where it says to apply multiplication first and then addition?

I did. Did you read the Unstoppable Ferocity rule ? The strength of the weapon gets modified. The models strength remains the same, its unaffected by the Unstoppable Ferocity rule. We only modify the weapons characteristic, nothing else.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Did... did you not read the rulebook where it says to apply multiplication first and then addition?

I did. Did you read the Unstoppable Ferocity rule ? The strength of the weapon gets modified. The models strength remains the same, its unaffected by the Unstoppable Ferocity rule. We only modify the weapons characteristic, nothing else.

Yes... and the rulebook says

"You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction."

It also says

"The weapons that a unit comes equipped with are described using a set of characteristics as follows:"

The rules also say

Strength (S): How likely the weapon is to inflict damage. If a weapon’s Strength lists ‘User’, it is equal to the wielder’s current Strength. If a weapon lists a modifier such as ‘+1’ or ‘x2’, you should modify the user’s current Strength characteristic as shown to determine the weapon’s Strength. For example, if a weapon’s Strength was ‘x2’, and the user had a Strength characteristic of 6, that weapon has Strength 12.

Therefore, when you apply the x2 first, as per the first quoted rule, the weapons strength is now two times the models strength, you then add 1, so now the weapons strength is now two times the models strength plus one. A user who has a Strength characteristic of 6 would thus have a weapon of Strength 13.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Therefore, when you apply the x2 first, as per the first quoted rule, the weapons strength is now two times the models strength, you then add 1, so now the weapons strength is now two times the models strength plus one. A user who has a Strength characteristic of 6 would thus have a weapon of Strength 13.

I understand your way of thinking, but i dont think its correct.

If a weapon’s Strength lists
‘User’, it is equal to the wielder’s current
Strength.

The bloodthirsters weapon doesnt list 'User', its x2. You cant use the models strength for the weapon, thats not what the rule says. If the weapon has S+3 its strength characteristic is "+3". If the model has strength 8 its strength characteristic is "8". Weapons strength isnt the same as model strength.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


The FAQ does tell you how to modify the weapon strength as well as how to modify the characteristic. It says you do that after you modify the model's base strength. In this case, if everything is modifying just the weapon, or in cases where you are modifying just the base characteristic, you follow the Primer's statement of multiplication and division before addition and subtraction.

No, the FAQ doesnt tell how to modify the weapon strength. It tells how to modify the models strength, but the strength of the model doesnt get modified at all by the UF rule.p

Okay, let's try the quote again, with emphasis in certain spots.

First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic..

You modify the base characteristic, then after that you apply weapon modifiers. Modifiers to the weapon modifiers are applied at the time you apply the weapon modifiers, after the character's current Strength characteristic is determined.

If you have multipliers and addition/subtractions at any of the two stages, you apply multiplication/division and then addition/subtraction, as per the battle primer.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Therefore, when you apply the x2 first, as per the first quoted rule, the weapons strength is now two times the models strength, you then add 1, so now the weapons strength is now two times the models strength plus one. A user who has a Strength characteristic of 6 would thus have a weapon of Strength 13.

I understand your way of thinking, but i dont think its correct.

If a weapon’s Strength lists
‘User’, it is equal to the wielder’s current
Strength.

The bloodthirsters weapon doesnt list 'User', its x2. You cant use the models strength for the weapon, thats not what the rule says. If the weapon has S+3 its strength characteristic is "+3". If the model has strength 8 its strength characteristic is "8". Weapons strength isnt the same as model strength.

Melee weapons often list the modifier to the users weapon or User if there is no modifier.
This isnt new or rocket science.
If you want to swing your Bloodthirster as strenght NULL that's your problem, try to do it with my weapons and I will get a judge to slap you with a rulebook.