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On the basis of the theory that each of the Primarchs was created to reflect a particular aspect of the Emperor's personality, I have attempted to define which characteristic or pair of characteristics each Primarch embodies. Of course, in recent years, Black Library has done a lot to develop the Primarchs into far more complex characters than one or two words could do justice. Nonetheless, I have attempted to use the words the Emperor himself might use to "label his jars," and in so doing, I have assumed that he might try to use positive nouns and adjectives only, so in the case of the Nighthaunter for instance, I have used, "sense of justice" rather than, "loves murdering." Horus is not listed as I feel like he was to be the embodiment of all of these characteristics combined.

Leman Russ: loyalty and gregariousness
Ferrus Manus: workmanship
Fulgrim: artistry and creativeness
Vulkan: humanitarianism and caring
Rogal Dorn: honesty and impassiveness
Roboute Guilliman: statecraft and governance
Magnus the Red: intellectualism and studiousness
Sanguinius: charisma
Lion El'Jonson: strategy and tactical acumen
Perturabo: scientific and engineering ability
Mortarion: ???
Lorgar: zeak and enthusiasm
Jaghatai Khan: ???
Konrad Curze: sense of justice
Angron: anger
Corax: secrecy
Alpharius Omegon: intrigue

As you can see, I drew a couple of blanks for Mortarion and the Khan, and with others such as Ferrus Manus, I'm really not that confident, as I really know next to nothing about their characters apart from that they're tough, fast and strong respectively. I also struggled to come up with anything positive for Angron; after all, the man is so angry it's almost his name! And then there's overlap of course, where Fulgrim, Manus Ferrus and Vulkan were all known for their craftsmanship, nonetheless, letting them share key attributes defeats the purpose of the exercise.

I'd like to hear your thoughts if it pleases you. I would say don't hold back on where I'm woefully wrong, but this is Dakka, and when do you ever?

Cheers.

I think that whole theory is a load of guff to be honest. They were all raised by foster fathers/no father at all. If you believe as science seems to, that peoples traits are influenced more by nurture than nature, then his absence wouldnt've allowed any of his influence at all. For example, If Angron hadnt been whipped his whole life, then had neural implants fry his receptors to anything but rage and killing, and had instead been raised on a nice garden world, he wouldn't embody anger at all.

And if they try and say that its somehow encoded into their DNA then that just ruins the whole great crusade and heresy foundations really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there really are too many of them for there to be distinct categories.. for example, youve got engineering and craftsmanship for Perty, and workmanship for Ferrus, which i would argue are basically the same thing, and if you look into the Primarchs they're basically all super great at everything. Even Gorechild is recorded as having been crafted by Angron himself.

This is what bugs me about the Primarch lore. theres not enough about their flaws.. Theyre pretty much all awesome at everything, and lacking at nothing.

There's a Youtube video from 40K Theories on just this subject. He raises a good point about Angron, however, in that we do not know what his personality would have been like without the Butcher's nails.
So I don't think it's fait to label Angron and the Emperor's Anger, since we really don't know what he was intended to be like

Regarding Nature vs Nuture. I do agree that outside forces greatly influence a person's personality, however their genetics have just as much impact on how those varied experiences tend to provoke certain reactions.
If a personality is like a river, "nurture" is the obstacles in the way that direct its path, but "nature" is the gravity causing it to reach the ocean or larger body of water regardless of those obstacles.

-

 Galef wrote:
Regarding Nature vs Nuture. I do agree that outside forces greatly influence a person's personality, however their genetics have just as much impact on how those varied experiences tend to provoke certain reactions.

Nurture has a more powerful impact, as demonstrated in the differences between twins separated at birth.

I mean, considering the current fluff all but explicitly outlines the Emperor intentionally allowed the Primarchs to be "lost" and intentionally treated half like crap in order to spark a Civil War and a cull of Astartes, it's no surprise that he probably engineered it with wibbly-wobbly-future-magic to make sure the Primarchs all had the "correct" personality.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Regarding Nature vs Nuture. I do agree that outside forces greatly influence a person's personality, however their genetics have just as much impact on how those varied experiences tend to provoke certain reactions.

Nurture has a more powerful impact, as demonstrated in the differences between twins separated at birth.

There's a debate to be had in real life (one that I'd be on your side), but this is a work of fiction which means that the author's ideas of psychology play more of a factor than what psychology is actually like. Same reason why you gotta look at most of the fiction of the mid-20th century through a Freudian lens despite basically everything he said being rubbish.

That being said, I don't think the argument for nature holds well here; all of the primarchs are pretty heavily defined by whatever planet they got whisked away to, anywhere from Guilliman's perfect situation on Ultramar to the shithole Curze grew up on. The primarchs developing their own personalities and not being raised up as Big E's perfect little minions is kinda The Point of the chaos gods whisking them away in the first place.

Nature vs nurture is complex, nurture plays an absolutely HUGE part, but at the same time people are predisposed to certain personality traits etc. some people are naturally more patient then others etc

I don't think this works, partly since some of these traits don't fit the primarchs, but mostly because loyalty, honesty and humanitarianism aren't ever demonstrated by the emperor. If the primarchs did embody those traits, they didn't come from Empy.

keep in mind the idea that Primarchs match an aspect of the emperor isn't a random fan theory, it's one advanced as early as Horus rising (Horus was said to be the Emperor's ambition)

 Melissia wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Regarding Nature vs Nuture. I do agree that outside forces greatly influence a person's personality, however their genetics have just as much impact on how those varied experiences tend to provoke certain reactions.

Nurture has a more powerful impact, as demonstrated in the differences between twins separated at birth.

Also, we're not talking about people. We're talking about demigods engineered with Warp magicks. Who knows what tricks Tzeentch snuck into their design?

Most of them are really just power grabbing dicks, so that kind of says something...

Horus inherited his fathers propensity for being weak and foolish. We know that much!

They all have father issues for sure...

mortarion is the emperor's willpower, A refusal to give in to death

Jaghatai khan is the Emperor's warrior instinct. Not tempered by doctine but pure basic martial instinct.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

This is what bugs me about the Primarch lore. theres not enough about their flaws.. Theyre pretty much all awesome at everything, and lacking at nothing.

They are correcting that slowly. The initial HH novels do plenty to show up the traitors' character flaws but lets the loyalists off the hook somewhat. Some of the later novels balance this out as well as the Primarch origin novels. Out of the loyalist Primarchs, here are some of the flaws that are more emphasized.

Lion: He has no empathy or charisma, he really struggles to read or inspire people in a way that comes naturally to most of the other Primarchs. Just before the Iron Warriors declared for the Warmaster at Istavaan V, The Lion gave Perturabo a set of siege engines he had designed to stop them from falling into Horus's hands and he cannot tell that Perty is almost laughing in his face.

Russ: He is a massive hypocrite, particularly with his attitude to psykers. Khan outright accuses him of this but Russ continues to argue that his Rune Priests are special snowflakes and are not covered by the Nikea edict.

Corax: He is impatient and arrogant. He feels that once a threat is militarily defeated, it is time to move on to the next target. During the GC, he often left the planets he conquered in a pretty poor state as he hurried on to "liberate" the next target. Roboute criticises him at one point for considering a mission complete when Roboute feels that the real work (reconstruction) has only just begun.

Sanguinius: Plagued by self-doubt and prescience almost as much as Curze. While he handles it better than the Night Haunter, he seems to constantly be walking a tightrope between the angelic and vampiric side of his nature.

Dorn: Stubborn to a fault, this guy really struggles to accept changing circumstances. When Garro first brings word of Horus' betrayal, Dorn nearly kills him on the spot for insulting his brother. Later, he kills Alpharius rather than consider the possibility he might be willing to give him valuable intel on the rest of the traitors.

Gulliman: Old Roboute does seem to be getting the golden boy treatment so far.

Khan: Again, no obvious character flaws highlighted yet.

nah Gulliman has flaws but they're not as apparent. He's prone to being judgemental, how many stories do you hear of him bashing his brothers for having a differant approuch then him? he's got that aggirvating "I know best, don't question me" element of the Emperor in him. His only saving grace is that he's a know it all whose often RIGHT.

Yeah, Guilliman's thing is that he comes from a position of privilege and can't understand the actions and feelings of his brothers. He got the best deal with where Chaos shipped him off to (so he can never understand what guys like Curze or Angron went through) and his legion doesn't have any of the serious issues some of the others have (so he can never understand the struggles of guys like Sanguinius and Magnus). It's a bit less clear than the others because it doesn't lead to direct consequences for him; what it does is lead to him doing all the "right" things as the situation collapses around him regardless.

Leman Russ: loyalty and gregariousness - determinism they did everything and anything to get the job done, even stuff the other legions wouldn't
Ferrus Manus: workmanship
Fulgrim: artistry and creativeness
Vulkan: humanitarianism and caring
Rogal Dorn: honesty and impassiveness - also greatest military mind.
Roboute Guilliman: statecraft and governance
Magnus the Red: intellectualism and studiousness
Sanguinius: charisma
Lion El'Jonson: strategy and tactical acumen - secrecy. He wasn't the best strategist or tactician.
Perturabo: scientific and engineering ability
Mortarion: ???
Lorgar: zeal and enthusiasm
Jaghatai Khan: ???
Konrad Curze: sense of justice - even though he never gave proper justice, it was just retribution.
Angron: Its safe to say we have no idea what Angron got, the nails make him angry and his whole personality was changed by them by the time the Emperor discovered him.
Corax: secrecy - I don't know about Corax but it wasn't secrecy
Alpharius Omegon: intrigue - thinking out the box

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Leman Russ: loyalty and gregariousness - determinism they did everything and anything to get the job done, even stuff the other legions wouldn't
Ferrus Manus: workmanship
Fulgrim: artistry and creativeness
Vulkan: humanitarianism and caring
Rogal Dorn: honesty and impassiveness - also greatest military mind.
Roboute Guilliman: statecraft and governance
Magnus the Red: intellectualism and studiousness
Sanguinius: charisma
Lion El'Jonson: strategy and tactical acumen - secrecy. He wasn't the best strategist or tactician.
Perturabo: scientific and engineering ability
Mortarion: ???
Lorgar: zeal and enthusiasm
Jaghatai Khan: ???
Konrad Curze: sense of justice - even though he never gave proper justice, it was just retribution.
Angron: Its safe to say we have no idea what Angron got, the nails make him angry and his whole personality was changed by them by the time the Emperor discovered him.
Corax: secrecy - I don't know about Corax but it wasn't secrecy
Alpharius Omegon: intrigue - thinking out the box

Russ was a whipped dog, that wasn't loyalty. Russ knew his place, the Wolves did what they were told. Until the 2nd or 11th Primaris are confirmed by his hand Russ wimped out of every single killing blow he planned on his brothers, his Primarch head count is zero.

Angron had the Emperor's loyalty, big E simply never earned it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Leman Russ: loyalty and gregariousness - determinism they did everything and anything to get the job done, even stuff the other legions wouldn't
Ferrus Manus: workmanship
Fulgrim: artistry and creativeness
Vulkan: humanitarianism and caring
Rogal Dorn: honesty and impassiveness - also greatest military mind.
Roboute Guilliman: statecraft and governance
Magnus the Red: intellectualism and studiousness
Sanguinius: charisma
Lion El'Jonson: strategy and tactical acumen - secrecy. He wasn't the best strategist or tactician.
Perturabo: scientific and engineering ability
Mortarion: ???
Lorgar: zeal and enthusiasm
Jaghatai Khan: ???
Konrad Curze: sense of justice - even though he never gave proper justice, it was just retribution.
Angron: Its safe to say we have no idea what Angron got, the nails make him angry and his whole personality was changed by them by the time the Emperor discovered him.
Corax: secrecy - I don't know about Corax but it wasn't secrecy
Alpharius Omegon: intrigue - thinking out the box

Russ was a whipped dog, that wasn't loyalty. Russ knew his place, the Wolves did what they were told. Until the 2nd or 11th Primaris are confirmed by his hand Russ wimped out of every single killing blow he planned on his brothers, his Primarch head count is zero.

Angron had the Emperor's loyalty, big E simply never earned it.

He killed Magnus, as for the whipped dog quote I'll just leave that one, its the only one you bothered to pick out of the full list and its a bit emotional so I'm out. Not taking the high road though as I'm just as guilty at times but I'm trying to getting into less, pointless arguments. As for the Emperors loyalty, you obviously haven't read a lot of HH novels about Russ, he was extremely proud of him so much that it made Horus jealous, it soured their relationship. He was also glad that Russ broke Magnus' back. That's just a ridiculous statement.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He killed Magnus, as for the whipped dog quote I'll just leave that one, its the only one you bothered to pick out of the full list and its a bit emotional so I'm out. Not taking the high road though as I'm just as guilty at times but I'm trying to getting into less, pointless arguments. As for the Emperors loyalty, you obviously haven't read a lot of HH novels about Russ, he was extremely proud of him so much that it made Horus jealous, it soured their relationship. He was also glad that Russ broke Magnus' back. That's just a ridiculous statement.

Magnus would disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcPBE5PXhs

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He killed Magnus, as for the whipped dog quote I'll just leave that one, its the only one you bothered to pick out of the full list and its a bit emotional so I'm out. Not taking the high road though as I'm just as guilty at times but I'm trying to getting into less, pointless arguments. As for the Emperors loyalty, you obviously haven't read a lot of HH novels about Russ, he was extremely proud of him so much that it made Horus jealous, it soured their relationship. He was also glad that Russ broke Magnus' back. That's just a ridiculous statement.

Magnus would disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcPBE5PXhs

Magnus would be wrong, he was facing death so he became a Daemon Primarch, just like why the Emperor had to obliterate Horus' soul so the same couldn't be done to him. Russ killed his body, but tzeentch saved his soul or damned it depending on your outlook.

The khan is shown to have physical weaknesses in scars... thats more what I meant.

Leman Russ: Stobborness
Ferrus Manus: ingenuity
Fulgrim: desire to better oneself
Vulkan: heart
Rogal Dorn: soul
Roboute Guilliman: adaptability
Magnus the Red: inquisitivness
Sanguinius: introspection
Lion El'Jonson: uncaring duty
Perturabo: need to build a better future
Mortarion: Unknown, corrupted by chaos too early, likely steadfast determination
Lorgar: Hope
Jaghatai Khan: Adventure
Konrad Curze: Vengeance
Angron: Loyalty and brotherhood
Corax: Justice
Alpharius Omegon: Duality of purpose.

 Formosa wrote:
Leman Russ: Stobborness
Ferrus Manus: ingenuity
Fulgrim: desire to better oneself
Vulkan: heart
Rogal Dorn: soul
Roboute Guilliman: adaptability
Magnus the Red: inquisitivness
Sanguinius: introspection
Lion El'Jonson: uncaring duty
Perturabo: need to build a better future
Mortarion: Unknown, corrupted by chaos too early, likely steadfast determination
Lorgar: Hope
Jaghatai Khan: Adventure
Konrad Curze: Vengeance
Angron: Loyalty and brotherhood
Corax: Justice
Alpharius Omegon: Duality of purpose.

I always thought that Saguinius or Vulken were all soul, Dorn was always an extremely angry and truculent dude, he never really showed a soulful side in my take. Totally agree with Angron come to think of it, but before the Emperor "saved" him, he showed a loyalty and brotherhood for a bit but the worse he got he hated everyone and everything, only Kharn (maybe Lorgar, even though he hated him for his cowardly nature, though that changed when he took a plasma plast from a warhound for him) was the one he had any time for by the end. I think after Nuceria, destroyed Angron but I think with those pain engines and he was still able to show that amount of love and brotherhood for his fellow fighters shows what he would have been, before the nails ruined him. With the Khan I'd say adventure and freedom.

Leman Russ: Childish immaturity
Ferrus Manus: Childish immaturity
Fulgrim: Childish immaturity
Vulkan: Childish immaturity
Rogal Dorn: Adultish immaturity
Roboute Guilliman: Adultish immaturity
Magnus the Red: Childish immaturity
Sanguinius: Childish immaturity
Lion El'Jonson: Childish immaturity
Perturabo: Infantile immaturity
Mortarion: Childish immaturity
Lorgar: Childish immaturity
Jaghatai Khan: Teenagerish immaturity
Konrad Curze: Childish immaturity
Angron: Infantile immaturity
Corax: Teenish immaturity
Alpharius Omegon: Childish immaturity

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Leman Russ: Childish immaturity
Ferrus Manus: Childish immaturity
Fulgrim: Childish immaturity
Vulkan: Childish immaturity
Rogal Dorn: Adultish immaturity
Roboute Guilliman: Adultish immaturity
Magnus the Red: Childish immaturity
Sanguinius: Childish immaturity
Lion El'Jonson: Childish immaturity
Perturabo: Infantile immaturity
Mortarion: Childish immaturity
Lorgar: Childish immaturity
Jaghatai Khan: Teenagerish immaturity
Konrad Curze: Childish immaturity
Angron: Infantile immaturity
Corax: Teenish immaturity
Alpharius Omegon: Childish immaturity

BWAHAHAHAHAHA, you nailed it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Leman Russ: Stobborness
Ferrus Manus: ingenuity
Fulgrim: desire to better oneself
Vulkan: heart
Rogal Dorn: soul
Roboute Guilliman: adaptability
Magnus the Red: inquisitivness
Sanguinius: introspection
Lion El'Jonson: uncaring duty
Perturabo: need to build a better future
Mortarion: Unknown, corrupted by chaos too early, likely steadfast determination
Lorgar: Hope
Jaghatai Khan: Adventure
Konrad Curze: Vengeance
Angron: Loyalty and brotherhood
Corax: Justice
Alpharius Omegon: Duality of purpose.

I always thought that Saguinius or Vulken were all soul, Dorn was always an extremely angry and truculent dude, he never really showed a soulful side in my take. Totally agree with Angron come to think of it, but before the Emperor "saved" him, he showed a loyalty and brotherhood for a bit but the worse he got he hated everyone and everything, only Kharn (maybe Lorgar, even though he hated him for his cowardly nature, though that changed when he took a plasma plast from a warhound for him) was the one he had any time for by the end. I think after Nuceria, destroyed Angron but I think with those pain engines and he was still able to show that amount of love and brotherhood for his fellow fighters shows what he would have been, before the nails ruined him. With the Khan I'd say adventure and freedom.

I say soul for Dorn because I see him as the literal heart and soul of the imperium and its ideals, I think more than any other primarch he was closest to what the emperor wanted for all of them had they grown on terra, I feel like they should have had a few novels about him by now but sadly we have not had one, just parts of novels or short stories.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I think that whole theory is a load of guff to be honest. They were all raised by foster fathers/no father at all. If you believe as science seems to, that peoples traits are influenced more by nurture than nature, then his absence wouldnt've allowed any of his influence at all. For example, If Angron hadnt been whipped his whole life, then had neural implants fry his receptors to anything but rage and killing, and had instead been raised on a nice garden world, he wouldn't embody anger at all.

Regardless of science or psychology you cant ignore of the influence of those wacky space demons and their quarky sense of humor.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Leman Russ: Stobborness
Ferrus Manus: ingenuity
Fulgrim: desire to better oneself
Vulkan: heart
Rogal Dorn: soul
Roboute Guilliman: adaptability
Magnus the Red: inquisitivness
Sanguinius: introspection
Lion El'Jonson: uncaring duty
Perturabo: need to build a better future
Mortarion: Unknown, corrupted by chaos too early, likely steadfast determination
Lorgar: Hope
Jaghatai Khan: Adventure
Konrad Curze: Vengeance
Angron: Loyalty and brotherhood
Corax: Justice
Alpharius Omegon: Duality of purpose.

I always thought that Saguinius or Vulken were all soul, Dorn was always an extremely angry and truculent dude, he never really showed a soulful side in my take. Totally agree with Angron come to think of it, but before the Emperor "saved" him, he showed a loyalty and brotherhood for a bit but the worse he got he hated everyone and everything, only Kharn (maybe Lorgar, even though he hated him for his cowardly nature, though that changed when he took a plasma plast from a warhound for him) was the one he had any time for by the end. I think after Nuceria, destroyed Angron but I think with those pain engines and he was still able to show that amount of love and brotherhood for his fellow fighters shows what he would have been, before the nails ruined him. With the Khan I'd say adventure and freedom.

I say soul for Dorn because I see him as the literal heart and soul of the imperium and its ideals, I think more than any other primarch he was closest to what the emperor wanted for all of them had they grown on terra, I feel like they should have had a few novels about him by now but sadly we have not had one, just parts of novels or short stories.

Yeah I can see that, he did embody the essence of the Imperium.