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Just another thread on trying to fix CP,

What if you just paid for it?

as in, having a slot in each section (elites, heavy, fast attack, troops) which simply gives you CP in exchange for points.

This way, armies which need CP to function and currently add inconsequential units (loyal 32) to get them can simply buy them; they will have more CP but a smaller army.

You can also use these slots to make up a battalion/brigade. You would need these formations to have a different benefit than CP - I'm thinking objective secured on troops, which would be removed from troops across the game.

Alternatively, you can go back to a fixed force organisation chart, but for the purpose of themed armies, you can pay points to swap troop slots for other slots. EG 30 points to swap a troop slot for a heavy support slot. This could be worded as "pay 30 points, you can use a single fast attack unit in this troop slot. this unit does not gain objective secured, but is counted toward the minimum units for troops."

Then have the second force-org, like we used to use if we wanted more stuff than we could fit in.

The result of this would be that in a 2k list, you might get:

1750 points of models and 250 points of CP and slot-swapping vs 2000 points of models with no CP and a rigid force-org.

The second list will have to ride on the strengths of their units alone, the first will have to use their flexibility and CP to carry the game.

Assuming that you price CP the same for every army, you can balance the units without considering the stratagems they can use, then balance the CP cost of stratagems as a direct points-cost, EG if 1CP costs 20 points, then you can "price" a stratagem in points, assuming how much of a difference it will have in one turn, and make it cost that many CP.

EG, allowing one unit to teleport in for Orks. You would have to average out the most likely candidates (battlewagon of nobs, 30 boys, meganobs in a gorkanaught), and ascertain the handicap you should put on the army to allow this to take place. The divide it by (however much 1CP costs) to determine how many CP the ability should cost.

This would likely help with the whole "Marines have no stratagems they want to use" thing - marines will simply have a bigger army than the enemy. It would remove soup-abuse, as you can just buy the CP you need instead of buying units to magically unlock CP, and I think it would make the list-building a lot simpler.

The extremes of this are:

One knight with all the CP
an army with no CP and all points spent on bodies.
an army with their troops all swapped for heavy support or fast attack choices

None present a game breaker, I think - knights with loyal 32 are powerful, but if they didn't have the actual guardsmen, only the CP, they wouldn't be so bad at all. most armies can kill a knight in one turn, so killing or beating an overcharged knight who has no objective presence would not be too hard at all. An army of dudes who work without CP is how Warhammer was built, so after recosting things to disregard stratagems, this should be fine. A themed army comprising entirely of tanks sounds bad, but remember that it will be handicapped by doing so - spending, say, 50 points per slot, means that they are 300 points down, for all that they have more tanks than you expected.

I really think that this could work!

The problem is how many points do you need to pay for a CP? Which slots give up CP and so on.


Examples being:

HQ slot- 70pts to buy the slot and you gain 1 CP?
Troop slot- 50 pts to buy the slot and you gain 1CP?


So a CP battalion costing 220 points a detachment slot and would grant 9 CP and give you no models.

There's some merit to this proposal, but it's way to fiddly.

Not every army values a given force org slot evenly. Trying to guestimate the "likely candidates" is very finnicky and forces you to both eyeball the values you go with and also assume that all players would have taken whatever unit you decided to balance things around.

As time goes on, I become more and more fond of divorcing CP from army building points entirely. Give both players X CP per Y points in the army. No more wonky attempts to balance CP generation across armies and their troops of wildly different costs and utility. No more increasing or decreasing the cost of stratagems based on how many troops you expect them to have. No more designing troops that are lacklustre with the excuse that they're worth it because they unlock CP.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The problem is how many points do you need to pay for a CP? Which slots give up CP and so on.


Examples being:

HQ slot- 70pts to buy the slot and you gain 1 CP?
Troop slot- 50 pts to buy the slot and you gain 1CP?


So a CP battalion costing 220 points a detachment slot and would grant 9 CP and give you no models.

Valid points.

My suggestion is a flat rate for CP across all the armies - for example, 10pts per CP.

Then, recost every stratagem in reflection of this handicap system - if you tellyport an ork unit in, how many points is it worth? 50? 100?

I'm toying with the idea of removing the slots idea and simply having the players pay X points per CP. if it were 10 points per CP, then you might have a 2k army of 1800pts of models and 20CP to spend buffing them.

Aternatively, have CP as an upgrade for units. It's a bigger rewrite again, but allowing a guard squad to buy 1CP for 20pts, a guard command squad to buy up to 3CP at 20pts each, etc, would incorporate the cost for CP with army design, and prevent an army being comprised of 2-3 units and hundred of CPs. It would also address this marine-scout issue where scouts > marines, by allowing marines to buy more CP than scouts. they would, of course, need stratagems they want to use!

That said, I would have no problem using a 2000 point list with no CP against a 200 point list with 180CP! so if people want to cripple themselves, I say let 'em!