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Obliterators back to 65 points make them appealing, how are they?

How are the greater possessed?

How is abaddon?

Master of possession?

Csm troops?

Lastly how is the venomcrawler?

Just a word of warning. The Obliterators at 65 points are an obvious typo and anyone thinking otherwise is reaching hard to milk a competitive advantage.

I wouldn't buy shadowspear just for 65 point oblits that's pretty clearly a typo on the part of GW and will be FAQed when the big FAQ comes out

Right now, RAW is 65 points

Until that changes, they're 65 points each

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Right now, RAW is 65 points

Until that changes, they're 65 points each

yes and it's obvious it'll happen, proably by next weekend.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Right now, RAW is 65 points

Until that changes, they're 65 points each

Let's ***NOT*** argue about this here.

BACK TO THE OP's QUESTION

Everything in Shadowspear is dependent upon support.

Greater Possessed are fantastic support units for Maulerfiends, Venomcrawlers, and the Lord Discordant.

Abaddon is fantastic all around. He's a truck and benefits from being able to hide behind other units.

The Master of Possession brings some interesting spells to the table if you focus heavily on things with the Daemon keyword.

Chaos Marines are... Chaos Marines. Their effectiveness is drawn from the different legion/renegade traits now, like Red Corsairs. Otherwise, they're still seldom picked.

The Venomcrawler is actually pretty decent. Average of 4 str 9 shots (with greater possessed support) is nothing to scoff at. It's also fast, heals itself, and can blend things in melee for not many points.

Oblits are decent. They're not auto-pick at their new point cost, but they're still very effective at what they do, which is delete things.

I'm in agreement with drbored. They're a strong(ish) base, but really shine with the correct packages!

Greater Possessed + Possessed (hear me out!) with the correct Mark, possibly MoP and Dark Apostle can be awesome. It's a shame Khorne Berzerkers exist but if you genuinely dislike KB these can be a good alternative.


Venomcrawler is just damn decent combined arm threat which sports an assault gun and can semi blender things. 9/10 would distraction carnifex with it.

Oblits are awesome, new price whilst yes it is high, it competes with other choices instead of absolutely blowing them away (I assume 115 is correct and 65 is a soon to be FAQ'd typo. I have been playing them at 115 against my opponents and we all agree it's a simple copy paste error.)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Right now, RAW is 65 points

Until that changes, they're 65 points each

yes and it's obvious it'll happen, proably by next weekend.

Pre 2018 CA people said the same about castellans.

abadon stayed the same, the csm are ok if someone plays them as renegades, legion marines still are very bad. Maybe people will get some success with some chaos vehicles and demon soup, which maybe makes the lord on the mecha bug good too. havocks with the rules change and new weapon are a spicy option too.

The marine stuff makes little sense, some people tried to run the snipers alongside an assassin, but to me it is just better to run 2 assasins.

Karol wrote:
abadon stayed the same, the csm are ok if someone plays them as renegades, legion marines still are very bad.

From what I understand Abaddon is stronger, tougher, and has a better reroll aura. Then again he competes with the sub-100pt Black Legion chainlord.

Small marine squads with chaincannons look to be worth a shot.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes and it's obvious it'll happen, proably by next weekend.

Pre 2018 CA people said the same about castellans.

No, they said that Castellans would get an adjustment for balance reasons - not knowing, at the time, that CA2018 had started to be written before the IK book was released.

Would you please stop peddling this false equivalency, Karol?

My rundown of Vanguard marines as they stand in my Ultramarines.

Eliminators. Love them. Amazing. Paired with a Vindicare, and all characters flee.

Suppressors, Worth it. And great firepower for cheap. Better than people expect.

Vanguard Librarian.. Pretty middle of the line. Worth it if you have a plan. Not a general use pick like the Suppressors and Eliminators.

Infiltrators... Worth it if you play against GSC. Otherwise.. Not as much.

Captain. If you need some omni scramblers and need a character, and don't want to take infiltrators... Maybe this guy?

Lieutenant. I don't see any reason to bring this guy. Maybe there is a Indominus Crusade Reliquary of Galthor synergy? but that seems all out crazy.

 Dysartes wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes and it's obvious it'll happen, proably by next weekend.

Pre 2018 CA people said the same about castellans.

No, they said that Castellans would get an adjustment for balance reasons - not knowing, at the time, that CA2018 had started to be written before the IK book was released.

Would you please stop peddling this false equivalency, Karol?

ok, how about the design dude saying that SS are 2pts, no such thing happening in the CA, and the SS for TWC staying at the higher cost comparing to all other storm shields. There is zero difference between one and the other. rules don't care how fast the changes happen between one and another book, newest book says 65pts. just because someone doesn't like that the rules are like that, has zero influence on how the rule will or should be. Am sure most GK players have little love for their rules, and that they make no sense the way they are writen, it has zero impact on which rules they have to use in matched play.

I don't play chaos. I have nothing to gain from oblits being 65pts, but that is what rules say. Rules don't stop working, because people think they are stupid. Even if it is 100% of people, including me. And if CA is ready months before it goes to sale, then the same has to be true for the chaos codex. This means that GW had at least months to notice the difference in points. And if GW thought that the change is an important one, then they would do, the same thing they did with the space wolf codex, and errata it before the codex goes for sale.

Karol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes and it's obvious it'll happen, proably by next weekend.

Pre 2018 CA people said the same about castellans.

No, they said that Castellans would get an adjustment for balance reasons - not knowing, at the time, that CA2018 had started to be written before the IK book was released.

Would you please stop peddling this false equivalency, Karol?

ok, how about the design dude saying that SS are 2pts, no such thing happening in the CA, and the SS for TWC staying at the higher cost comparing to all other storm shields. There is zero difference between one and the other. rules don't care how fast the changes happen between one and another book, newest book says 65pts. just because someone doesn't like that the rules are like that, has zero influence on how the rule will or should be. Am sure most GK players have little love for their rules, and that they make no sense the way they are writen, it has zero impact on which rules they have to use in matched play.

I don't play chaos. I have nothing to gain from oblits being 65pts, but that is what rules say. Rules don't stop working, because people think they are stupid. Even if it is 100% of people, including me. And if CA is ready months before it goes to sale, then the same has to be true for the chaos codex. This means that GW had at least months to notice the difference in points. And if GW thought that the change is an important one, then they would do, the same thing they did with the space wolf codex, and errata it before the codex goes for sale.

It's an obvious typo because in the actual Shadowspear book, they have the same stat line and cost 115 per model, not the old cost of 65 pts. The updated Chaos book just didn't get the points cost updated like it should have. It's not like someone saying they'll change it to balance the game better (personally I think 115 is too high, and 65 too low), people are saying it will be changed because it's almost certainly a typo, a mistake.

Reemule wrote:
My rundown of Vanguard marines as they stand in my Ultramarines.

Eliminators. Love them. Amazing. Paired with a Vindicare, and all characters flee.

Suppressors, Worth it. And great firepower for cheap. Better than people expect.

Vanguard Librarian.. Pretty middle of the line. Worth it if you have a plan. Not a general use pick like the Suppressors and Eliminators.

Infiltrators... Worth it if you play against GSC. Otherwise.. Not as much.

Captain. If you need some omni scramblers and need a character, and don't want to take infiltrators... Maybe this guy?

Lieutenant. I don't see any reason to bring this guy. Maybe there is a Indominus Crusade Reliquary of Galthor synergy? but that seems all out crazy.

Although the thread is about the chaos portion, I do feel that the Lt is a decent use for the Target Priority warlord trait. Stick him next to some hellblasters etc and then you are getting +1 to hit to avoid overheating and also getting the reroll 1s to wound. with my DAs, that's +1 to it, rerolling 1s, and rerolling 1s to wound without having to have another character babysit.

That trait not being restricted to Phobos makes it one of the best things for Marines in the whole release outside of Suppressors. Putting it on something with a lot of firepower (say, a Land Raider or Centurions) is pretty good.

All the characters that can take it are pretty pricey, but at least none of them have a good enough gun that you'd have to think about whether it was worth firing instead of using the Warlord Trait.

-I think Abaddon is terrific. Great buffs, melee output, and survivability while not being so expensive that you have to build an army around him. Great kit also. He is everything you could reasonably hope he would be.

-CSMs with guns got significantly better with some nice chapter tactics, army buffs, and the new heavy weapon. Ultimately they are still elite troops which will get shot off the table by cheap troops in this edition, so I can't really call them good. Better or even adequate would be the word.

-CSM with chainswords seem to be a waste, and I'd say those guys would be best served as a base for Berserkers or perhaps used as Chosen. An Icon of Slaanesh would essentialy give them 4 attacks vs the Imperium, and they might be able to do enough damage to be worthwhile in this way. You could also give some/all of them Thunder Hammers (or have World Eaters with Thunder Hammers!) and try to take out big stuff, but they still have to get to their target which is easier said than done considering expensive transports, bubble screens, etc.

The other Shadowspear stuff is all Daemon focused and is all better when you are taking a lot of Daemons, and worse if you aren't. I don't think its fair to evaluate them in a vacuum so we will assume that the army contains a number of Daemon units deployed intelligently to take advantage of the buff synergies.

-Master of Posession is a nice HQ choice based on the ability to improve invuln saves and summon on the move. Summoning on the move opens a lot of possibilities but could backfire on you when you really need it. I think this guy is "good" but still not an auto include in a Daemon heavy army.

-Greater Possessed I would rate as merely Fair as they have a pretty narrow use case compared to a Daemon Herald. You've got to be using a lot of Daemons and also either be using multiple different Chaos marks or not able to take a Chaos Daemons detachment to use them.

-I was initially lukewarm on the Venomcrawlers but considering all the stacked buffs they can get from CSM characters, Daemon Heralds, psychic powers, etc I think they are a good unit and something to potentially build around. I don't play the tournament formats with the small and distant deployment zones, where they (or any melee really) would not be near as good..

 Slowroll wrote:
-I think Abaddon is terrific. Great buffs, melee output, and survivability while not being so expensive that you have to build an army around him. Great kit also. He is everything you could reasonably hope he would be.

-CSMs with guns got significantly better with some nice chapter tactics, army buffs, and the new heavy weapon. Ultimately they are still elite troops which will get shot off the table by cheap troops in this edition, so I can't really call them good. Better or even adequate would be the word.

-CSM with chainswords seem to be a waste, and I'd say those guys would be best served as a base for Berserkers or perhaps used as Chosen. An Icon of Slaanesh would essentialy give them 4 attacks vs the Imperium, and they might be able to do enough damage to be worthwhile in this way. You could also give some/all of them Thunder Hammers (or have World Eaters with Thunder Hammers!) and try to take out big stuff, but they still have to get to their target which is easier said than done considering expensive transports, bubble screens, etc.

The other Shadowspear stuff is all Daemon focused and is all better when you are taking a lot of Daemons, and worse if you aren't. I don't think its fair to evaluate them in a vacuum so we will assume that the army contains a number of Daemon units deployed intelligently to take advantage of the buff synergies.

-Master of Posession is a nice HQ choice based on the ability to improve invuln saves and summon on the move. Summoning on the move opens a lot of possibilities but could backfire on you when you really need it. I think this guy is "good" but still not an auto include in a Daemon heavy army.

-Greater Possessed I would rate as merely Fair as they have a pretty narrow use case compared to a Daemon Herald. You've got to be using a lot of Daemons and also either be using multiple different Chaos marks or not able to take a Chaos Daemons detachment to use them.

-I was initially lukewarm on the Venomcrawlers but considering all the stacked buffs they can get from CSM characters, Daemon Heralds, psychic powers, etc I think they are a good unit and something to potentially build around. I don't play the tournament formats with the small and distant deployment zones, where they (or any melee really) would not be near as good..

Csm with Chainswords can actually be decent, if you go down the route of red Corsairs.

Obliterators are better, even at 115 points than they were, double tapping it's 36 shots

36 shots for 345 points beats the earlier 36 shots for 390 points (because you had to take 2 units and double tap one to get the same amount)

Sure it was more wounds on the table, but a single unit is easier to enhance with spells, so whatever your opinion on them was before, they're better now all things considered

 Dovis wrote:
Obliterators are better, even at 115 points than they were, double tapping it's 36 shots

36 shots for 345 points beats the earlier 36 shots for 390 points (because you had to take 2 units and double tap one to get the same amount)

Sure it was more wounds on the table, but a single unit is easier to enhance with spells, so whatever your opinion on them was before, they're better now all things considered

Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Er, unless you're perhaps not running reaper havocs? Perhaps you don't own any, or perhaps your list restrictions force you to choose between heavy support options and your army can make better use of deep-striking Oblits?
Why do we have to answer all questions under the assumption that everyone owns a maxed-out fully optimised tournament-winning army?

To stay on topic, I love the Oblits and the Greater Possessed because they're awesome models. I recommend ignoring the buff the GPs bring and simply adding them to some close assault units in a Rhino. Two GPs bring 10 wounds T5 3+/5++ with 10 attacks S6 AP-2 D3 damage hitting on 2+ for 140 points. I've had great fun with them so far. Are they game-changing? Not if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't try using them against high-toughness targets. But they're excellent harassers, especially if you run them as Red Corsairs for advance+charge.
Don't run single Oblits, not even in small games. 6 shots just don't cut it and then your lonely Oblit is toast. I'm going to try 2-man Oblit units once I've got the next one painted up.

I find the MoP a useful support character for making daemon engines more tanky, but he's so slow that he becomes difficult to use well. I think regular Sorcerers are likely more useful in your HQ slots.

Snugiraffe wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Er, unless you're perhaps not running reaper havocs? Perhaps you don't own any, or perhaps your list restrictions force you to choose between heavy support options and your army can make better use of deep-striking Oblits?
Why do we have to answer all questions under the assumption that everyone owns a maxed-out fully optimised tournament-winning army?

To stay on topic, I love the Oblits and the Greater Possessed because they're awesome models. I recommend ignoring the buff the GPs bring and simply adding them to some close assault units in a Rhino. Two GPs bring 10 wounds T5 3+/5++ with 10 attacks S6 AP-2 D3 damage hitting on 2+ for 140 points. I've had great fun with them so far. Are they game-changing? Not if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't try using them against high-toughness targets. But they're excellent harassers, especially if you run them as Red Corsairs for advance+charge.
Don't run single Oblits, not even in small games. 6 shots just don't cut it and then your lonely Oblit is toast. I'm going to try 2-man Oblit units once I've got the next one painted up.

I find the MoP a useful support character for making daemon engines more tanky, but he's so slow that he becomes difficult to use well. I think regular Sorcerers are likely more useful in your HQ slots.

I answered to a general statement, THAT OBLITS ARE NOW BETTER.
When it is objectively wrong.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Er, unless you're perhaps not running reaper havocs? Perhaps you don't own any, or perhaps your list restrictions force you to choose between heavy support options and your army can make better use of deep-striking Oblits?
Why do we have to answer all questions under the assumption that everyone owns a maxed-out fully optimised tournament-winning army?

To stay on topic, I love the Oblits and the Greater Possessed because they're awesome models. I recommend ignoring the buff the GPs bring and simply adding them to some close assault units in a Rhino. Two GPs bring 10 wounds T5 3+/5++ with 10 attacks S6 AP-2 D3 damage hitting on 2+ for 140 points. I've had great fun with them so far. Are they game-changing? Not if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't try using them against high-toughness targets. But they're excellent harassers, especially if you run them as Red Corsairs for advance+charge.
Don't run single Oblits, not even in small games. 6 shots just don't cut it and then your lonely Oblit is toast. I'm going to try 2-man Oblit units once I've got the next one painted up.

I find the MoP a useful support character for making daemon engines more tanky, but he's so slow that he becomes difficult to use well. I think regular Sorcerers are likely more useful in your HQ slots.

I answered to a general statement, THAT OBLITS ARE NOW BETTER.
When it is objectively wrong.

Damage wise they're better - 36 shots for 345 vs 36 shots for 390, do you have some alternative math you could share that states otherwise? Also you can't argue that 1 unit is easier to enhance so they don't require more support than they did, also it's way easier to squeeze in 3 models than 6 into opponents deepstrike deny bubbles

Only aspect they got worse in is survivability

Reaper chainguns are only 24", without deepstrike they are likely to not even get in range if you're playing a shooty opponent

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Er, unless you're perhaps not running reaper havocs? Perhaps you don't own any, or perhaps your list restrictions force you to choose between heavy support options and your army can make better use of deep-striking Oblits?
Why do we have to answer all questions under the assumption that everyone owns a maxed-out fully optimised tournament-winning army?

To stay on topic, I love the Oblits and the Greater Possessed because they're awesome models. I recommend ignoring the buff the GPs bring and simply adding them to some close assault units in a Rhino. Two GPs bring 10 wounds T5 3+/5++ with 10 attacks S6 AP-2 D3 damage hitting on 2+ for 140 points. I've had great fun with them so far. Are they game-changing? Not if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't try using them against high-toughness targets. But they're excellent harassers, especially if you run them as Red Corsairs for advance+charge.
Don't run single Oblits, not even in small games. 6 shots just don't cut it and then your lonely Oblit is toast. I'm going to try 2-man Oblit units once I've got the next one painted up.

I find the MoP a useful support character for making daemon engines more tanky, but he's so slow that he becomes difficult to use well. I think regular Sorcerers are likely more useful in your HQ slots.

I answered to a general statement, THAT OBLITS ARE NOW BETTER.
When it is objectively wrong.

Damage wise they're better - 36 shots for 345 vs 36 shots for 390, do you have some alternative math you could share that states otherwise? Also you can't argue that 1 unit is easier to enhance so they don't require more support than they did, also it's way easier to squeeze in 3 models than 6 into opponents deepstrike deny bubbles

Only aspect they got worse in is survivability

Reaper chainguns are only 24", without deepstrike they are likely to not even get in range if you're playing a shooty opponent

How about the Obliterator thread? Or the CSM tactica?

Havocs can be pushed forward, (AL) F.e. Havocs also can profit from the oblertartor formation. Which is a (12 " Deployment) 42" Threat radious where you don't even want to put shooty units in.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Actually that is not true, oblits got less effective ppm / dmg wise, and require an insane ammount of support.
Also due to the reaper chaincannon you will not use cacophony on Oblits anymore.

Er, unless you're perhaps not running reaper havocs? Perhaps you don't own any, or perhaps your list restrictions force you to choose between heavy support options and your army can make better use of deep-striking Oblits?
Why do we have to answer all questions under the assumption that everyone owns a maxed-out fully optimised tournament-winning army?

To stay on topic, I love the Oblits and the Greater Possessed because they're awesome models. I recommend ignoring the buff the GPs bring and simply adding them to some close assault units in a Rhino. Two GPs bring 10 wounds T5 3+/5++ with 10 attacks S6 AP-2 D3 damage hitting on 2+ for 140 points. I've had great fun with them so far. Are they game-changing? Not if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't try using them against high-toughness targets. But they're excellent harassers, especially if you run them as Red Corsairs for advance+charge.
Don't run single Oblits, not even in small games. 6 shots just don't cut it and then your lonely Oblit is toast. I'm going to try 2-man Oblit units once I've got the next one painted up.

I find the MoP a useful support character for making daemon engines more tanky, but he's so slow that he becomes difficult to use well. I think regular Sorcerers are likely more useful in your HQ slots.

I answered to a general statement, THAT OBLITS ARE NOW BETTER.
When it is objectively wrong.

Damage wise they're better - 36 shots for 345 vs 36 shots for 390, do you have some alternative math you could share that states otherwise? Also you can't argue that 1 unit is easier to enhance so they don't require more support than they did, also it's way easier to squeeze in 3 models than 6 into opponents deepstrike deny bubbles

Only aspect they got worse in is survivability

Reaper chainguns are only 24", without deepstrike they are likely to not even get in range if you're playing a shooty opponent

How about the Obliterator thread? Or the CSM tactica?

Havocs can be pushed forward, (AL) F.e. Havocs also can profit from the oblertartor formation. Which is a (12 " Deployment) 42" Threat radious where you don't even want to put shooty units in.

What post are you referring to in particular, because I can't find any with math detailing how they're worse

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

@Vakathi - And then compare Oblits to Helbrutes and it gets even worse.
A Helbrute with a Plasmacannon and Missile Launcher is what, 96 pts? With a Twin-Las and Missile Launcher they're what, 116 pts? I'd pick that over an Obliterator every single day.

115 ppm Oblits is only somewhat fine if you're using playing around cacaphony and stacking buffs, but far from everyone plays them this way. I refuse MoS on my Scourged-Oblits and my World Eaters can't even take MoS (not that I would take it.)

Or this.

Not Online!!! wrote:

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?

This is only true until you double shoot, so if you're CP dry it holds up, otherwise it's wrong, Prescience and VotlW can be used only on a single unit, so again - you're getting more mileage from these with the new Oblits


Let's consider an example:

Shooting a T7 target, with average rolls and prescience + VotlW with re-rolls to 1 of hit and wound

Old oblits do

24*0,97*0,97+12*0,78*0,78= 29.88

New Oblits do

36*0,97*0,97 = 33.87



New ones are more than 10% shootier for 45 less points




Second example is of a single Obliterator, who would ever take that, you're using a unit in it's worst setup when arguing peak efficiency, that's a logical fallacy

Also you're comparing Obliterator to a Hellbrute, which isn't the topic of our discussion, so you're trying to dodge here

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?

This is only true until you double shoot, so if you're CP dry it holds up, otherwise it's wrong, Prescience and VotlW can be used only on a single unit, so again - you're getting more mileage from these with the new Oblits


Let's consider an example:

Shooting a T7 target, with average rolls and prescience + VotlW with re-rolls to 1 of hit and wound

Old oblits do

24*0,97*0,97+12*0,78*0,78= 29.88

New Oblits do

36*0,97*0,97 = 33.87



New ones are more than 10% shootier for 45 less points




Second example is of a single Obliterator, who would ever take that, you're using a unit in it's worst setup when arguing peak efficiency, that's a logical fallacy

Also you're comparing Obliterator to a Hellbrute, which isn't the topic of our discussion, so you're trying to dodge here

No second exemple is a price comparison and for your 3 Oblits i can fill out the whole elites necessary for a brigade.

Also your exemple is wrong, you can not always have VotLW due to now many people running batteries of renegades which do not get VotLW, which in turn means a higher hq pts tax.
The least you would need to do is correctly price pts / CP and add that.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?

This is only true until you double shoot, so if you're CP dry it holds up, otherwise it's wrong, Prescience and VotlW can be used only on a single unit, so again - you're getting more mileage from these with the new Oblits


Let's consider an example:

Shooting a T7 target, with average rolls and prescience + VotlW with re-rolls to 1 of hit and wound

Old oblits do

24*0,97*0,97+12*0,78*0,78= 29.88

New Oblits do

36*0,97*0,97 = 33.87



New ones are more than 10% shootier for 45 less points




Second example is of a single Obliterator, who would ever take that, you're using a unit in it's worst setup when arguing peak efficiency, that's a logical fallacy

Also you're comparing Obliterator to a Hellbrute, which isn't the topic of our discussion, so you're trying to dodge here

No second exemple is a price comparison and for your 3 Oblits i can fill out the whole elites necessary for a brigade.

Also your exemple is wrong, you can not always have VotLW due to now many people running batteries of renegades which do not get VotLW, which in turn means a higher hq pts tax.
The least you would need to do is correctly price pts / CP and add that.

True, in some circumstances they are worse off now, however, when talking peak performance, they are in a better spot. There are plenty list where you don't take them at all and that's actually a good thing. They made theme more niche, which is good for unit variety

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?

This is only true until you double shoot, so if you're CP dry it holds up, otherwise it's wrong, Prescience and VotlW can be used only on a single unit, so again - you're getting more mileage from these with the new Oblits


Let's consider an example:

Shooting a T7 target, with average rolls and prescience + VotlW with re-rolls to 1 of hit and wound

Old oblits do

24*0,97*0,97+12*0,78*0,78= 29.88

New Oblits do

36*0,97*0,97 = 33.87



New ones are more than 10% shootier for 45 less points




Second example is of a single Obliterator, who would ever take that, you're using a unit in it's worst setup when arguing peak efficiency, that's a logical fallacy

Also you're comparing Obliterator to a Hellbrute, which isn't the topic of our discussion, so you're trying to dodge here

No second exemple is a price comparison and for your 3 Oblits i can fill out the whole elites necessary for a brigade.

Also your exemple is wrong, you can not always have VotLW due to now many people running batteries of renegades which do not get VotLW, which in turn means a higher hq pts tax.
The least you would need to do is correctly price pts / CP and add that.

True, in some circumstances they are worse off now, however, when talking peak performance, they are in a better spot. There are plenty list where you don't take them at all and that's actually a good thing. They made theme more niche, which is good for unit variety

So in your mind, a unit that has neither seen top tournament performance nor has been buffed since is good shoved and cornered even more in a specific corner?

Because atm 95% of all regular csm units need this and you can see it impact the Performance overall off the army.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

50% increase in Firepower at max squad size, but points went up by more than 75%. So no-they're not as efficient as before. More buffs have become available, but they all cost points.

They did get more resilient against some things (Lascannons by a good amount, small arms a good amount, OC Plasma a little) but are just as vulnerable to other things (Autocannons, for instance). And their melee is better, but that's negligible

How about this?

This is only true until you double shoot, so if you're CP dry it holds up, otherwise it's wrong, Prescience and VotlW can be used only on a single unit, so again - you're getting more mileage from these with the new Oblits


Let's consider an example:

Shooting a T7 target, with average rolls and prescience + VotlW with re-rolls to 1 of hit and wound

Old oblits do

24*0,97*0,97+12*0,78*0,78= 29.88

New Oblits do

36*0,97*0,97 = 33.87



New ones are more than 10% shootier for 45 less points




Second example is of a single Obliterator, who would ever take that, you're using a unit in it's worst setup when arguing peak efficiency, that's a logical fallacy

Also you're comparing Obliterator to a Hellbrute, which isn't the topic of our discussion, so you're trying to dodge here

No second exemple is a price comparison and for your 3 Oblits i can fill out the whole elites necessary for a brigade.

Also your exemple is wrong, you can not always have VotLW due to now many people running batteries of renegades which do not get VotLW, which in turn means a higher hq pts tax.
The least you would need to do is correctly price pts / CP and add that.

True, in some circumstances they are worse off now, however, when talking peak performance, they are in a better spot. There are plenty list where you don't take them at all and that's actually a good thing. They made theme more niche, which is good for unit variety

So in your mind, a unit that has neither seen top tournament performance nor has been buffed since is good shoved and cornered even more in a specific corner?

Because atm 95% of all regular csm units need this and you can see it impact the Performance overall off the army.

It did get an overall 20%+ buff in its peak performance setup, so If you're talking tournament/competitive play, where units are taken at their peak performance setups, it got buffed and hugely so, now a squad of Oblits can for example delete 3 squads of Tau Broadsides, effectively destroying 2x the point value on arrival, couldn't do that before