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OK Fresh thread.

List 80 Init:3

Qin, Warring states

Army Corp 1
1 4 horse chariot, Elite, Impact, Includes Sub General: Comp
8 Heavy Infantry 2HW Ordinary: Heavy Swordsman 2HW

Army Corp 2

1 Heavy chariot, Elite Impact; Includes Comp sub general
6 Bowmen, mediocre w/ 6 facings of field fort.

Army Corp 3

1 4 horse chariot Impact, Elite: Includes CiC Brilliant
1 4 horse chariot Impact, Elite
2 Heavy Cav, Ordinary

3 Light horse, bows.

Budget 199

OK? Silly?




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List 80 Qin Fanatics Init 3

Army Corp 1

1 4 horse chariot impact, Elite, includes Comp General
6 Heavy Swordsmen impact, Elite

Army Corps 2

1 4 horse chariot impact, Elite includes Comp General
7 Bowmen, mediocre w/ 7 facings of field fort

Army Corp 3
1 4 horse chariot impact, Elite includes Brilliant CIC Sun Pin
1 4 horse chariot impact Elite
2 Heavy Cav ordinary

3 Light horse, Bows


Budget 199

This was suggested to me, The Qin have the option of using fanatic "warband" infantry....


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This is my try to port over my beloved Anchient Spanish...


List 89 Anchient Spanish init:2

Army Corp 1 Celiberian Allies/ Mercenaries

1 Spanish Cav Medium Elite includes Comp Ally
6 Celtiberian Scutarii Heavy Swordsmen impetuous Elite
2 Caetradii light infantry, Javelins

Army Corp 2
1 Spanish Cav. Medium Elite Includes CIC Brilliant
6 Iberian Scutarii Medium swordsmen impetuous Ordinary
4 Caetradii Light infantry, Javelins

Army Corp 3 Friendly tribe
1 Spanish Cav, medium, Elite Includes Comp Allied
6 Iberian Scutarrii Medium swordsmen impetuous
2 Caetradii Light infantry , Javlins

Budget 200


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And for a slightly better tourney list: List 89 Lusitanians init:3

Army Corp 1

Sub General Galba Comp.
8 Lusitanian Scutarii Medium Swordsman impact Ordinary (trained by Romans)

Army Corp 2
CIC Sertorius Strategos included

1 Veteran Legionarii (includes CIC) Heavy Swordsman Armor, impact Elite
3 Veteran Legionarii Heavy Swordsman Armor, impact Elite
6 Caetradii Light infantry, Javlin

Army Corp 3 Sub General, Comp. included Martonius

1 Spanish Cav (includes general) Medium, Elite
2 Spanish Cav Medium, Ordinary
2 Caetradii Light infantry, Javelins

Budget 199

Ok, I've had some time to consider the critique...and I came up with this...gotta say I am not super in love with having Generals without a bodyguard but maybe the freed up points will justify.

List 80 Qin Init:3

Fortified camp, one facing of Field fort for the Artillery.

Army Corps 1 Comp Sub general
6 HI Swordsmen, impact Ord
4 LI, with Bows

Army Corp 2 Sub general Comp.
4 Bowmen Ord
1 Heavy Artillery Ord


Army Corp 3 Brilliant general included
1 HCh impact Elite w/ General
3 HCh impact, Elite
4 LH, w/ Bows


Budget 200

Just to give you a hard time. That's not legal Qin list as Qin replace ALL their 2HW with Impact. However there are other states that make it a legal list 80.

I don't think that is a great list but it is better than before. My two complaints would be corp 2 is incredibly vulnerable and an included brilliant general is just asking for trouble.

I think playing a game or two would help you a lot. I've not played DRM but I think there must be some big differences especially with respect to the strength of foot archers which you'll need to experience.

Our thoughts on including brilliant generals changed dramatically after the first time one died in battle.

Also if you use Facebook consider joining the L'Art de la Guerre Wargaming facebook group. There are a lot of helpful players who are better than me there.

 durecellrabbit wrote:
Just to give you a hard time. That's not legal Qin list as Qin replace ALL their 2HW with Impact. However there are other states that make it a legal list 80.

I don't think that is a great list but it is better than before. My two complaints would be corp 2 is incredibly vulnerable and an included brilliant general is just asking for trouble.

I think playing a game or two would help you a lot. I've not played DRM but I think there must be some big differences especially with respect to the strength of foot archers which you'll need to experience.

Our thoughts on including brilliant generals changed dramatically after the first time one died in battle.

Also if you use Facebook consider joining the L'Art de la Guerre Wargaming facebook group. There are a lot of helpful players who are better than me there.

No probs. But I read the list as "Qin option" so I am not required to swap...I personally don't believe the hype. I think the Qin ran a professional army, so I don't like the fanatics version. I agree I need to play a few games to get things fully understood. But in DBA/DBM I was kinda well known for plunging my generals into combat. But my won loss rate was very good.

After playing I may feel different, but I like having a bodyguard for my generals, it lets me plug a hole in the line...and Maybe turn around a fight, rather than just watch the command crumble.

As far as Archers go...I agree they are weak in Hth, but I have had lots of success with a solid block of archers. With the Qin I place them behind a Field fort so that they are not subject to being "bum rushed" off the table. If my foe yields that flank to me, I am happy to abandon my ditches and march down and turn the flank. I Should get two shots off vs HI, so thats a fair bit of disorder, vs MI, or light only one shot, but I get +1 for the fort. vs horse I'm in trouble, but horse get -2 vs ditch and sharpened stakes...so I'll hold for a while. And hopefully I can use that time usefully.

No, you don't have to pick Qin but you do need to pick another option with light horse (Like Han) if you want those. I do think you are right about the Qin military but I think everyone can find something they disagree within the army lists.

Archers should get 4 shots off against HI as you can fire in your opponents turn. They move into bow range, your turn, they move into charge range, your turn, they charge.

We find shooting takes a lot of time/luck to get disorders in and only horse archers have that but that might be because we tend towards armoured elite HI who get a 4 minimum on their defence roll or have LI screens. My friend's classical Indian archers get hacked into pieces most games.

Yeah Classical Indians are a puzzle. They Should be awesome, but it seldom works out that way. Maybe he ought to try mixing the Swordsmen and archers into a single unit DBM has that as an option to run "X" bow, and I believe ADLG has somthing like that as well...at least Achemenids and Han should have the option....

I'd suggest he try running them in two ranks so he can manuver them into good spots and put max number of shots on target.


Or.....Moar Elephants!!! LOL


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Looking again, it does look like Qin is mandated as fanatic goofballs Oh well, I guess I can live with that....

There's no firing in two ranks in ADLG (and really no advantage to having units in two ranks at all. You're just more likely to accidentally be routed). Classical Indians can take mixed Bow/Sword units, which lets you shoot as normal but fight as a rating below (so for most mixed units, mediocre). You do get to claim Missile Support in your first round of combat, so winning that's pretty critical.

I decided to go with the Tamil Indian route for my Elephant army:







It's a pretty simple army - Elephants and Medium Swordsmen, with some Mediocre Bowmen and Mediocre Cavalry to round it out. With little command, the whole army basically steamrolls forward and hopes to win combat in the first round, otherwise it cracks.

Nice army!

I've been trying to convince him he really should max out his elephants but to no success so far. Instead he has group of archers on their own whose only success ever was killing one of my elephants.

 infinite_array wrote:
There's no firing in two ranks in ADLG (and really no advantage to having units in two ranks at all. You're just more likely to accidentally be routed). Classical Indians can take mixed Bow/Sword units, which lets you shoot as normal but fight as a rating below (so for most mixed units, mediocre). You do get to claim Missile Support in your first round of combat, so winning that's pretty critical.

I decided to go with the Tamil Indian route for my Elephant army:







It's a pretty simple army - Elephants and Medium Swordsmen, with some Mediocre Bowmen and Mediocre Cavalry to round it out. With little command, the whole army basically steamrolls forward and hopes to win combat in the first round, otherwise it cracks.

Nice! I battled a Tamil army with my late western Romans in a DBM tourney (Many years ago) and it was suprizingley stronk. He made good use of hills and shot in two ranks though...ADLD doen't have a "rank bonus"? Strange, how do Spears/Pikes work?

ADLG include the second rank (And 3rd for Pikes) in a unit by default and then simplifies that to a base factor + bonus if charged by cavalry.

Yeah, "two ranks" in ADLG is just the basic size of a unit on a 40x40mm base if you're playing 15mm. A 20x40mm base is light infantry, which take a -1 when shooting to represent the relative sparseness of their shots.

So for say Late Eastern Romans..I would put one rank of Legionairii, and a backing rank of Archers one one base, and call them HI, swordsmen, impact(?) with a missile support bonus vs Horse...?


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And possably the same thing with Auxilia Palantina? Javlinmen, Javlins, Missle support Elite...I'm not sure how they would be built, in DBM they are Auxilia(S) with the option to take a backing rank of Psiloi (Bow)...or are they MI Swordsmen, with "missile support" in ALDG?


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Ok 8th times a charm...

List 80 Qin Init: 3

Army Corp 1 Sub Gen: Comp Included
6 Heavy Swordsmen Impact Ord
4 Light inf w/ Bow
1 4 Horse chariot, impact, Elite w/ General

Army Corp 2 Brilliant General, included
1 4 Horse Chariot, impact Elite w/ General
1 4 horse Chariot impact, Elite
2 Heavy Cav ord
4 Light Horse w/ Bow

Army Corps 3
6 Bowmen mediocre w/ Field fort ditch and stakes


I'm about ready to field this, so I can test it out a time or three



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My only remaining army, after some thefts and drama...

List 89 Iberians Init 3


Corp 1 Mercinaries Comp Ally General

4 Celtiberian Scutarii Heavy swordsmen impetuous Elite
5 Caetradii Light inf w/ Javelins

Corp 2 Royal Army CIC King Galba Comp

6 Iberian Scutarii Medium swordsmen, impetuous ordinary
6 Caetradii Light inf w/ javelins

Army Corp 3 Royal Horse Brigade Sub General Prince Argath Comp included

1 Spanish Cav w/ General (Med Cav) Elite
2 Spanish Horsemen (Medium Cav) elite
4 Light spanish horse w/ Javelins
4 Caetradii Light inf w/ Javelins

1 Fort Camp

Budget 200

All infantry except light infantry and pikes is made up of two DBM bases. Proper mixed units are one rank of spear/swords and one of archers. Units with rear support are made up of two ranks of their troop type and a base of light infantry bow at its rear.

Your Romans would be two DBM bases of swordsmen and one of archers if you buy the support upgrade. Yes, Auxilia Palantina are MI Impact with an option for support.

The missile support bonus is against everyone not in extra heavy armour when losing on the first turn of combat. It is a different bonus from the one bowmen get against cavalry.

 durecellrabbit wrote:
All infantry except light infantry and pikes is made up of two DBM bases. Proper mixed units are one rank of spear/swords and one of archers. Units with rear support are made up of two ranks of their troop type and a base of light infantry bow at its rear.

Your Romans would be two DBM bases of swordsmen and one of archers if you buy the support upgrade. Yes, Auxilia Palantina are MI Impact with an option for support.

The missile support bonus is against everyone not in extra heavy armour when losing on the first turn of combat. It is a different bonus from the one bowmen get against cavalry.

Thanks. So I'll start rebasing my Iberian Horde, and build the Qin on the "double" base. I used sheet metal for the bases so I may just glue them to sheet metal double bases. Should go pretty fast.

Note the light bow base for rear support is just used as a marker. Don't glued them to your infantry. Also keep some single bases for DBA.

 durecellrabbit wrote:
Note the light bow base for rear support is just used as a marker. Don't glued them to your infantry. Also keep some single bases for DBA.

Thanks. I am building up from a Qin DBA army. I actually have several DBA forces as they were packed away when I got burgled. I think I have: Picts, Irish, Suluced, Alexander, Alexander Imperial, Tullian Romans, oh and Scots. (and Qin/ 3 kingdoms)

My Spanish DBM was also in storage.


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I think I have some unpainted ones as well...Both sides of Troy, Spartans, Hopelites in general...maybe some others...

pinecone77 wrote:
Ok, I've had some time to consider the critique...and I came up with this...gotta say I am not super in love with having Generals without a bodyguard but maybe the freed up points will justify.

List 80 Qin Init:3
Fortified camp, one facing of Field fort for the Artillery.
Army Corps 1 Comp Sub general
6 HI Swordsmen, impact Ord
4 LI, with Bows

Army Corp 2 Sub general Comp.
4 Bowmen Ord
1 Heavy Artillery Ord

Army Corp 3 Brilliant general included
1 HCh impact Elite w/ General
3 HCh impact, Elite
4 LH, w/ Bows
Budget 200

The artillery command for starters is weird. Bowmen do best in pairs at the ends of the battle line supporting your mounted formations by shooting enemy horse, or in penny packets with your infantry helping to drive off enemy skirmishers. Unless you manage to get a hill in the middle of the deplyment zone every game this command with 4 bowmen and nothing else just looks too much like an easy target that also has to be deployed in the centre, which in turn limits your other deployment options too much anyway.

Having a brilliant general included with HCh s just risking gifiting your enemy 3 free points if/when he dies in combat - theres an argument for an ordinary general, but otherwise this command doesnt need the extra +2 command and control as it is going to drive forwards for 1 point and move the LH for 1 - anything else above Competent or Ordinary is going to be wasted or unused.

If you use artillery you can have a fairly defensive play style by default - that then can mean the HCh can act as a bit of a hard-hitting fire brigade to respond to the enemy trying to attack you in a place where the artillery can't reach them. Splitting them up into 2 separate commands gives you a bit more flexibility to use their punch than having them all together

having all your LH in 1 command means they are all on one flank - 4 is too many anyway, 2 or 3 is ideal and upgrading one to HC or MCv makes them much tougher against enemy LH. They cant stand up to enemy HC/MC mounted anyway so having them more able to bully LH is probably better

Using (almost) he same figures I'd probably go with

2 HCh
1 LH
2 Bowmen
1 LF
Competent General - arguably included?

4 HF Sword
2 LF Bow
1 Bow
Artillery
Competent General

2 HF Sword
1 Bow
1 LF Bow
2 LH
1 MCv
2 HCh
Brilliant General

Then you can choose whether to put the 4 HCh together or split them on both flanks, and likewise you can still use the 6 HF together by deplying their commands adjacent to each other or split them up. Combining HF and Bow in a block gives you "sword and shield" against enemy mounted, and the combination with yoru HCh also keeps the enemy mounted away as the HCh will be much better than they are too.

Thanks! I'm used to redeploying my forces on the fly, so I like to have lots of CP...Hmmm maybe two HCH and two LH, and Two HC with two light horse...? Ive use two Catphracts with two LH "wingmen" with great success in DBM...maybe it'll work in ADLG..

Ok, hopefully I'll get the formatting "right" this time...


Warring states: Qin List 80 Init: 3

6 facings of field fort : Ditches and stakes

Corp 1 Comp. Commander
6 Bowmen Mediocre
1 Light Artillery

Corp 2 Comp. Commander: Included
1 4 Horse Chariot Impact Elite (Includes General)
6 Heavy Swordsmen Impact Ordinary
4 Light Infantry, w/Bows Ordinary

Corp 3 Brilliant CIC Included
1 4 Horse Chariot Impact Elite
1 4 Horse Chariot Impact Elite
2 Heavy Cav.
4 Light Horse, w/Bows

I figure the Cav wing would deploy HC, HCh, HCh, HC and 4 LH
or as suggested LH, HC, HC,LH and HCH with 2 LIght Horse (LH,HCh, LH,) or LH,HCh,HCH(G),LH,

I agree that 3 LH is plenty...unless the other fellow has 4.


Thanks for all the input. I'll be testing this one out, once I am able to safely travel.

Well.. as I said before...

The artillery command for starters is weird. Bowmen do best in pairs at the ends of the battle line supporting your mounted formations by shooting enemy horse, or in penny packets with your infantry helping to drive off enemy skirmishers. Unless you manage to get a hill in the middle of the deplyment zone every game this command with six (formerly 4) bowmen and nothing else just looks too much like an easy target that also has to be deployed in the centre, which in turn limits your other deployment options too much anyway.

Having a Competent (formerly brilliant) general included with HCh s just risking gifting your enemy 3 free points if/when he dies in combat By embedding him in a chariot he also now cannot ever give his every-turn pip to the infantry, so it is in effect going to be wasted most turns, as its hard to see what he does other than sit and wait to be a highly over-qualified, over-priced reserve unit to plug gaps if and when your infantry line has holed knocked into it by the enemy

If you use artillery you can have a fairly defensive play style by default - that then can mean the HCh can act as a bit of a hard-hitting fire brigade to respond to the enemy trying to attack you in a place where the artillery can't reach them. Splitting them up into 2 separate commands gives you a bit more flexibility to use their punch than having them all together but if you are going to do that, have 2 + 2, not 3+1

Having all your LH in 1 command means they are all on one flank - 4 is too many anyway, 2 or 3 is ideal and upgrading one to HC or MCv makes them much tougher against enemy LH. They cant stand up to enemy HC/MC mounted anyway so having them more able to bully LH is probably better

I'm also really struggling to see what you do with 6 static fortifications, other than making it pretty certain that whichever of your infantry commands sits behind it won't ever get to fight or shoot in the game as it will become both too static, and arguably simply too difficult to beat for anyone to even bother trying to attack it .

Here's a page with a load of very viable and succesful Warring States lists for you to look at : https://www.madaxeman.com/adlg/tiki-index.php?page=Warring+States

And likewise with Han... https://www.madaxeman.com/adlg/tiki-index.php?page=Han+Chinese

Here are 5 battle reports using Han lists https://www.madaxeman.com/reports/Limerick_2018_1.php

And 5 using Spring & Autumn Chinese https://www.madaxeman.com/reports/Warfare_2016_1.php

Oh, sorry I have problems typing sometimes. The Field forts are for the archers. The Arty is weird, but confusing can be good. Also it scares Elephants... The Bow can refuse a flank by sitting, or hold the center while both flanks get flooded, or I can fight with one flank empty. with, or without a flank marching element.


I generally concentrate all my Cav on one side to overwhelm, then turn to hit the middle...so thats a "style" thang. Depending on how the enemy deploys I can tag into the center from the get go if a gap is available. I had a few odd points left so one Artillery seemed fun, it can protect my camp, or sit on a hillside taunting the foe.

You are likely right about Bowmen, but many armies in history did fight with big blocks of them, so I figure Ill give it a try. In DBM I did not always deploy onto the field right off if I was running Regulars, I would deploy in collum, and move to controll the battle space. Then deploy where I was best placed. so I figure I need Plenty of pips before contact, then few if any after contact.


My idea of how to deploy the Qin is something like:



Fortified Bow, Arty


Cav Inf both Line of march then death blossum out based on what I see....that might not be possable with the movement rules for ADLG so I need to read some. Thank you for your assistance.

OK, so I was looking at late western Romans...I no longer have this army, but if I Did.....

List: 86 Late (Western) Romans Init:2

Corp 1 Comp Sub General, included Master of horse
1 Equite Singularii, includes General HC Impact Elite
1 Equite Singularii HC Impact Elite
2 Equite Alarii HC Ordinary
2 Equite Saggitarii LH, w/Bow Ordinary

Corp 2 Sub General Comp. Marcus Allius Lupa Comp

5 Legionarii HI Swordsmen Impact w/Missile support Ordinary

Corp 3 CIC Imperator Comp



6 Auxilia Palantina MI Swordsmen Impact Armor w/ Missile support
3 Equite Illycani LH w/ Javilins Ordinary

Fortified Camp Budget 200 points

Okay I've finished rebasing two Corps of my Spanish...if I can figure out how I'll post my "preflocked pictures...


Still no idea...but the armie is fully based, just needs flocking...maybe my girlfriend can walk me through posting pics.

OK, fully flocked and based...but I did not like the look "on table" so I futzed around with the list some...


List 89 Ancient Spanish Init: 4

Corp 1 Mercinaries Ally General: Comp
4 Celtiberian Scutarii HI Swordsmen Impet. Elite
2 Caetradi LI w/Javilins
3 Spanish LH w/ Javlins (Loyal to the king, added to bolster)

Corp 2 King Galba the Generous Brilliant
6 Iberian Scutarii MI Swordsmen Impet. Ordinary
6 Caetradii LI w/Javlins

Corp 3 Royal Horse Brigade Prince Argath Sub General Comp Included
1 Spanish Cav MC Elite includes General
2 Spanish Cav MC Elite
3 Spanish LH w/Javlins
4 Caetradii LI w/Javlins

Budget 199 I have two "issues" one no fortified Camp, and two, not enough Caetradii I'm used to seeing an ocean of LI... I also may have overspent on a Brilliant Commander....

This sort of level of detail is probably best posted on the ADLG forum.... but,

- you far too many LF. They can do very little except delay the enemy or hold difficult terrain uphill. 6 in the army is maybe too many, never mind 6 in one command
- having 5 LH is odd - adding one more gives you an extra scouting point but is still too many really. The number to have is 2, 3 or 6
- Brilliant is probably too good for a one-dimensional, 1-troop type command even if they are impetuous

I agree, but...the Spanish had an early history of beating the Romans. Who adopted the strategy of paying someone to assasinate the current leader. So I figured Galba must be smart to be a threat. The Caetradi should be able to be usefull for holding terrain, and widening facings. Spanish cav was known to integrate foot into their units, that is likely why they can qualify for "Elite" staus.

so the cav wing might look something like: Caetradii Cav Cav Cav Caetradi and the light horse the same it also lets a Horse Brigade contest rough, something few can do. The Celtiberians do the same, using the LF to widen the face of the unit. Caetradii can be usefull as ambushers as well, making maneuver difficult for a foe...If you have plenty of terrain. The Spanish are happiest with several rough hills spread about maybe a woods...then a road down the middle?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next project is paint, and base some Vetran Legonarii for the Lusitanians. The maybe start on a Hanibal army using Spanish allies, or possably only Spanish mercinaries....

Here are my flocked figures

More pics

Spanish horse brigade: front view

I'm sorry, my new (temp) meds are making my hands super useless...so it may be a few days till I can start putting a Qin army together. Anybody in the Portland, OR area know of any wargamming groups? I am disabled, but I can travel by cab no probs.