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How do?

So was thinking about how as well as the Aspect Warriors needing plastics, the Phoenix Lord models could really do with a resculpt. And looking at how GW go about releasing stuff, they’d likely be tied into a campaign, rather than a Codex.

We’re also seeing a loose theme of rebirth in 40k. Guilliman, obvs. Also Calgar, and arguably, the Eye Of Terror.

And given we know Ynnead has some influence over souls, the following struck me.

Could, in the presence of Ynnead, a Phoenix Lord be The Young King, but fully merged with the Avatar’s fragment of Khaine? Their fighting disciplines are after all modelled on aspects of Khaine. And it strikes me it’d allow for ‘Primarisification’ within the Craftworld range? Ynnead’s influence could see them fully merged, rather than providing a kind of battery to power the Avatar.

Now I’m not an Eldar player, or even all that up on their Lore. But I think it could be pretty cool. An Eldar answer to Primarchs re-emerging onto the Galactic scene?

it would be nice to see new pheonix lord scults and they could be released with thier aspects. it would make sense to do it alongside Ynarri in a actual codex where the points are corrected for ynarri armies.

I doubt it will happen anytime soon though. GW has made it pretty evident the main protagonist is the imperium and the Primaris marines, and that the main antagonist is chaos. I forsee them releasing all of the traitor legions as codexes or at least event boxes and then maybe after they will give eldar some attention.

I'd always assumed the Young King's soul was destroyed by Khaine - and consumed.

On the tabletop, the Avatars of Khaine and Ynnead are CWE's Primarchs. Ynnead's is a new and awesome model. Khaine's GW model is old and meh, but his FW model - same rules - is amazing. If they redo him, I hope they do it like FW's model.

Lorewise, the Phoenix Lords could be considered Primarch-like. Half of them could really use a rework. And some aspects don't have one yet (Spears, Spiders, Spectres). On the tabletop, they're more equivelent to Captains or Chapter Masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note - Banshees take their visage from the daughters of Morag Hai, not from Khaine, and Reapers both take on an Aspect of Khaine that developed when Khaine absorbed a part of a C'tan, and also have always revered Ynead a bit more.

They follow the Path of Khaine, but that doesn't mean they can't also revear/follow Ynead.

That’s why I feel the background could allow for them to be merged with shards of Khaine.

Or at least give us an Avatar kit which has options to reflect his aspects?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting snippet about Khaine absorbing part of a C’Tan. Where’s that mentioned, as I’ve never heard of it before? (

He already does.

He is the perfect warrior that Dire Avengers represent.
He is the molten fury that Fire Dragons represent.
He is the terror and havoc that Howling Banshees represent.
He is the death and destruction that Dark Reapers represent.

I'm not seeing as much from some of the others - Hawks/Spiders/Spears - but I'm seeing most.

I don't think he should "kit" out to be "one of the Aspects of Khaine" - he's the Avatar of Khaine, he's all the Aspects. So he shouldn't choose between Hawks wings, a sword, or a missile launcher.

Kit-wise, I've always held that 3 dual-kits would be the best way to release plastic Aspects. Dragons/Reapers, Banshees/Hawks, Scorpions/Spider, etc as those all can share similar poses and just be head/weapon/backpack swaps.

Unfortunately, dual kits are less and less common these days, with GW seeming to prefer single unit/limited pose kits.
If GW continues this template, I highly doubt Aspect will see dual kits (which is sad), however, this may allow for the Phoenix Lords to get rolled into the kit of their aspect.

Each kit would come with bits to make 4 regular Aspects with the 5th model having various loadouts, including specific bits to make a Phoenix Lord.
But make no mistake, this would be a big release and I doubt GW is gearing up for anything big that isn't Imperium or Chaos at the moment

------Edit: I do find it interesting that out of all the kits that Eldar desperately need updating, they almost all fit into the "Aspects of Khaine". With GWs obsession with mini-Factions recently, there is always the chance that "Khaine Eldar" get their own Codex, or WD min-dex

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I persoanlly hope ynnari is allowed to die a slow painful death in a corner of a dank room and be relegeted to a fringe gimmick. Hope it removes its influence regarding rules/points from regular eldar armies unless narrative.

FYI shadow specters have a FW phoenix lord.

I wouldint be half mad if FW did phoenix lords. At least you know they'd be awesome like the avatar.
But yes the entire range needs a facelift. The worry is in my opinion GW will go full primaris/primarch on the space elves and I almost hope they dont..

I would like to see a warp spider and shinning spear phoenix lord.
Regarding aspects, I dont think they need dual kits. They are fine as they are. They are supposed to be specilalist troops with the exarchs getting options but they really need to be 10models kits.
I would also like to see some cool exodite mosters maybe and a wraith beast thing.

 Argive wrote:
I persoanlly hope ynnari is allowed to die a slow painful death in a corner of a dank room and be relegeted to a fringe gimmick. Hope it removes its influence regarding rules/points from regular eldar armies unless narrative.

Ynnari does not need to "die", but relegating the 3 Ynnari Characters as the only Ynnari units that can be added to an Aeldari list in the same way as Assassins wouldn't hurt. Make Soulburst into a Stratagem and call it a day.

Now there is no such thing as a "Ynnari" army. Just a CWE, DE or Harlie army with one or more of the Ynnari Characters.

-

Alternatively, why not release Ynnari as a proper codex, with some (but not necessary all) DE, Eldar and Harlequin units?

That way you could have a proper army, rather than one built around 3 special characters and a mess of units from different books.

Think of Corsairs in 7th edition.

Alternatively, bin Ynnari entirely and just make Corsairs again. A much more fun and interesting army.

I’m hoping we see some kind of evolution of the Ynnari hosts.

I mean, a mixing of cultures under one banner typically engenders change. Some will remain relatively Puritan, others more multicultural.

Now exactly how that might look on the tabletop, I’m simply not familiar enough with Eldar to really say. But surely there’s a happy medium aesthetic to be explored?

 vipoid wrote:
Alternatively, why not release Ynnari as a proper codex, with some (but not necessary all) DE, Eldar and Harlequin units?

That way you could have a proper army, rather than one built around 3 special characters and a mess of units from different books.

Think of Corsairs in 7th edition.

Alternatively, bin Ynnari entirely and just make Corsairs again. A much more fun and interesting army.

I'm basing my assumption off the recent Assassins update and Ynnari being confirmed in the May White Dwarf.
I doubt this will be as extensive as a Codex, and will more than likely look like the Assassins rules (which also cover how you use 4 single-model units)

It would actually make more sense and be much cleaner than the current rules. You either take all 3 Characters in a Supreme Command detachment, or spend a CP to add them Assassin-style.
Having them in your Aeldari army grants access to Ynnari Strats, which all very likely to be how units Soulburst from now on. There's probably going to be separate "Shoot twice", "Fight Twice" and "Move twice" strats that any Aeldari unit can use

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 Galef wrote:
Kit-wise, I've always held that 3 dual-kits would be the best way to release plastic Aspects. Dragons/Reapers, Banshees/Hawks, Scorpions/Spider, etc as those all can share similar poses and just be head/weapon/backpack swaps.
-

I'd rather they got more unique armors and broader weapons options - I'd love to paint a squad of firepike Fire Dragons, for example. Or Banshees with spears/executioners. Scorpions with twin chainsabers.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s why I feel the background could allow for them to be merged with shards of Khaine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting snippet about Khaine absorbing part of a C’Tan. Where’s that mentioned, as I’ve never heard of it before? (

It was first introduced as part of an Eldar legend dating from the War in Heaven in WD 273. This was during the 3rd edition Necron codex when the C'tan were being shoe-horned into the existing lore left, right and centre. I am sure the story can be found on google if you have the patience. The quick summary is that Khaine and the Nightbringer fought an epic clash. After a long battle, Khaine won and destroyed the Nightbringer's Necrodermis. However it exploded so violently that shards of the living metal were driven into Khaine's body where they were melted by the heat of his rage and mingled with his molten blood. This forever tainted Khaine with the aspect of the Reaper.

I rather like the way this plays into the metaphysical nature of Warp entities in 40K. The legend could recount a literal battle but it could also be an allegory for the Eldar's own battle against the Necrons. As the long and brutal war dragged on, the Eldar's own nature and understanding of war grew to include the use of fear as a weapon and of long-ranged destructive weaponry. This evolution of their racial psyche would be reflected in the warp as their war god became darker and grew to reflect elements of the foe they were fighting.

Bharring wrote:
I'd always assumed the Young King's soul was destroyed by Khaine - and consumed.

On the tabletop, the Avatars of Khaine and Ynnead are CWE's Primarchs. Ynnead's is a new and awesome model. Khaine's GW model is old and meh, but his FW model - same rules - is amazing. If they redo him, I hope they do it like FW's model.

Lorewise, the Phoenix Lords could be considered Primarch-like. Half of them could really use a rework. And some aspects don't have one yet (Spears, Spiders, Spectres). On the tabletop, they're more equivelent to Captains or Chapter Masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note - Banshees take their visage from the daughters of Morag Hai, not from Khaine, and Reapers both take on an Aspect of Khaine that developed when Khaine absorbed a part of a C'tan, and also have always revered Ynead a bit more.

They follow the Path of Khaine, but that doesn't mean they can't also revear/follow Ynead.

Spectres already have a Phoenix Lord, Irylith, but you don't see him at all as his rules are pretty rubbish for 160pts.

 Imateria wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd always assumed the Young King's soul was destroyed by Khaine - and consumed.

On the tabletop, the Avatars of Khaine and Ynnead are CWE's Primarchs. Ynnead's is a new and awesome model. Khaine's GW model is old and meh, but his FW model - same rules - is amazing. If they redo him, I hope they do it like FW's model.

Lorewise, the Phoenix Lords could be considered Primarch-like. Half of them could really use a rework. And some aspects don't have one yet (Spears, Spiders, Spectres). On the tabletop, they're more equivelent to Captains or Chapter Masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note - Banshees take their visage from the daughters of Morag Hai, not from Khaine, and Reapers both take on an Aspect of Khaine that developed when Khaine absorbed a part of a C'tan, and also have always revered Ynead a bit more.

They follow the Path of Khaine, but that doesn't mean they can't also revear/follow Ynead.

Spectres already have a Phoenix Lord, Irylith, but you don't see him at all as his rules are pretty rubbish for 160pts.

If memory serves the only Aspects that don't have a Phoenix Lord at all are the Warp Spiders and Crimson Hunters.

GW dropped the ball when they released the Craftworlds codex. Instead of drawing on the new fluff for Biel Tan (after the fracture) it was just business as usual for the craftworld. Nothing in the rules reflected the events that brought Ynnari into the game.It was great to see GW try to advance the timeline for the Aeldari, but then it seemed that they didn't have the balls to push it forward in the rules. Shame.

The phoenix lords are cool lore vice. But I have yet to see one on a table. That is very sad.

Maugan Ra is a beast. He clears hordes like nobody‘s business, including those pesky -2 Plaguebearer blobs and doesn’t do a bad
job on anti-Flyer duty. He has 2+ Armour, making him fairly Vindicare resistant, especially in cover. And he can clear smaller units camping on objectives in cc as well.

I use him fairly often. He also featured in the LVO Top 8.

I think asurmen & magun-ra combo seems fun on paper with a big unit of DAs and reapers.

I'd rather not see a re-writer for a new Avatar. The Ynnari one is already...a thing. The Avatar was really underwhelming at 250 points, and is better at 220 but still not as strong as it should be. Luckily because it's based on the old model it didn't keep up with the Greater Daemons who are in a much worse spot (in 2nd etc. the stats were literally in line with a Blood Thirster, etc.).

As the Greater Daemons got newer and bigger models they became much stronger than the Avatar. However, come 8th edition the Avatar is able to avoid being targeted...at least giving it some respite, despite being a close combat character which needs to close the distance.

As GW continues to ignore most of the main Eldar kits, I lean more and more heavily toward the idea that GW will Primarisize Eldar. Not scale them up so much, as replace the book with an Ynnari based blaaaaaaagh something.

Phoenix Lords are neat, but mostly expensive and simply don't have enough survivability in many instances (particularly the ones which need to charge and thus can easily be targeted by weapons). 2+ armour and Toughness 4 just doesn't stand up to the massed dice that are being hurled in this edition. They are in desperate need of some kind of invulnerable save or 5+ feel-no-pain, OR...even cooler, a mechanic allowing an Exarch to sacrifice himself to the Phoenix Lord's suit after he's slain and bring the Phoenix Lord back (even a 1CP stratagem to do so would be fantastic).

The Craftworld book, while decently strong suffers big time for me as an Eldar fan. It feels exceptionally bland and soulless. As an earlier book it simply doesn't feel like the writers were passionate about Eldar or their fluff. The opposite of this would be perhaps Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, Orks, etc. I'm not speaking about strength of the book, but the "cool" factor, the nods to fluff, the tie-ins with source material. The Craftworld book is just a list of generic stratagems and generic spells. Almost nothing in the book "feels" specifically Eldar or fluff-friendly. Really unfortunate in my opinion. I still love my army, but the passion isn't there in the codex.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maugan Ra is a beast. He clears hordes like nobody‘s business, including those pesky -2 Plaguebearer blobs and doesn’t do a bad
job on anti-Flyer duty. He has 2+ Armour, making him fairly Vindicare resistant, especially in cover. And he can clear smaller units camping on objectives in cc as well.

I use him fairly often. He also featured in the LVO Top 8.

Vindicare ignore cover.

 Elbows wrote:

The Craftworld book, while decently strong suffers big time for me as an Eldar fan. It feels exceptionally bland and soulless. As an earlier book it simply doesn't feel like the writers were passionate about Eldar or their fluff. The opposite of this would be perhaps Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, Orks, etc. I'm not speaking about strength of the book, but the "cool" factor, the nods to fluff, the tie-ins with source material. The Craftworld book is just a list of generic stratagems and generic spells. Almost nothing in the book "feels" specifically Eldar or fluff-friendly. Really unfortunate in my opinion. I still love my army, but the passion isn't there in the codex.

Agreed completely, the Craftworlds codex is incredibly bland from about every way you can look at it.

 Elbows wrote:


As GW continues to ignore most of the main Eldar kits, I lean more and more heavily toward the idea that GW will Primarisize Eldar. Not scale them up so much, as replace the book with an Ynnari based blaaaaaaagh something.

Gawd I hope not....

 Elbows wrote:


Phoenix Lords are neat, but mostly expensive and simply don't have enough survivability in many instances (particularly the ones which need to charge and thus can easily be targeted by weapons). 2+ armour and Toughness 4 just doesn't stand up to the massed dice that are being hurled in this edition. They are in desperate need of some kind of invulnerable save or 5+ feel-no-pain, OR...even cooler, a mechanic allowing an Exarch to sacrifice himself to the Phoenix Lord's suit after he's slain and bring the Phoenix Lord back (even a 1CP stratagem to do so would be fantastic).

Give aspects squads options to be led by a phoenix lord rather than exarch maybe?. That way you can eat overwatch and have some spare wounds if you get shot out out of position. Its still waaaay to expensive for points though. If I wanted to have the avatar of khaine plus all the phoenix lords its 1500 points for 7 characters... Asurmen seems the most useful as 5++ bubble for all aspects is nice plus hes a beast in combat. but at 170 points Alternatively a gimmick similiar to shield drones could be cool.

 Elbows wrote:

The Craftworld book, while decently strong suffers big time for me as an Eldar fan. It feels exceptionally bland and soulless. As an earlier book it simply doesn't feel like the writers were passionate about Eldar or their fluff. The opposite of this would be perhaps Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, Orks, etc. I'm not speaking about strength of the book, but the "cool" factor, the nods to fluff, the tie-ins with source material. The Craftworld book is just a list of generic stratagems and generic spells. Almost nothing in the book "feels" specifically Eldar or fluff-friendly. Really unfortunate in my opinion. I still love my army, but the passion isn't there in the codex.

I actualy like the book sems quite crisp.

 Imateria wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd always assumed the Young King's soul was destroyed by Khaine - and consumed.

On the tabletop, the Avatars of Khaine and Ynnead are CWE's Primarchs. Ynnead's is a new and awesome model. Khaine's GW model is old and meh, but his FW model - same rules - is amazing. If they redo him, I hope they do it like FW's model.

Lorewise, the Phoenix Lords could be considered Primarch-like. Half of them could really use a rework. And some aspects don't have one yet (Spears, Spiders, Spectres). On the tabletop, they're more equivelent to Captains or Chapter Masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note - Banshees take their visage from the daughters of Morag Hai, not from Khaine, and Reapers both take on an Aspect of Khaine that developed when Khaine absorbed a part of a C'tan, and also have always revered Ynead a bit more.

They follow the Path of Khaine, but that doesn't mean they can't also revear/follow Ynead.

Spectres already have a Phoenix Lord, Irylith, but you don't see him at all as his rules are pretty rubbish for 160pts.

Brainfart. I even have Irylith. Not sure how I managed to say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd always assumed the Young King's soul was destroyed by Khaine - and consumed.

On the tabletop, the Avatars of Khaine and Ynnead are CWE's Primarchs. Ynnead's is a new and awesome model. Khaine's GW model is old and meh, but his FW model - same rules - is amazing. If they redo him, I hope they do it like FW's model.

Lorewise, the Phoenix Lords could be considered Primarch-like. Half of them could really use a rework. And some aspects don't have one yet (Spears, Spiders, Spectres). On the tabletop, they're more equivelent to Captains or Chapter Masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note - Banshees take their visage from the daughters of Morag Hai, not from Khaine, and Reapers both take on an Aspect of Khaine that developed when Khaine absorbed a part of a C'tan, and also have always revered Ynead a bit more.

They follow the Path of Khaine, but that doesn't mean they can't also revear/follow Ynead.

Spectres already have a Phoenix Lord, Irylith, but you don't see him at all as his rules are pretty rubbish for 160pts.

If memory serves the only Aspects that don't have a Phoenix Lord at all are the Warp Spiders and Crimson Hunters.

Shining Spears, for Aspects with models.

Slicing Orbs of (I don't recall), for Aspects in general. Not that I expect new Aspects any time soon.

It’s going to be interesting if the game changes with Ynarri changes. I think it was so powerful that many other options never got a chance. Most of the Phoenix Lords seems like they bring something to the table.

On paper, they have some interesting rules. In practice, they're some cool rules, but don't change much.

Asurman's aura seems cool, but it's a lot of points to give 2/3rds of an 11ppm unit a 4++. Other Aspects get a 5++, but nothing else does. So it oculd be cool if you're running an Aspect horde blob - but they just don't work that way. And if you're not running a huge Aspect blob, you get much more survivability by taking more doods. And Guardians - even without the aura - do that horde blob better. Also, unlike Chapter Masters, he doesn't give out any reroll aura at all.

Karrandas and leveraging the hell out of exploding attacks on Scorpions sounds great, until you realize that you get many, many more attacks just by taking more Scorpions instead of Karrandas. Also, no reroll aura.

Baharroth is a low-ROF mid-S gun, and a Powersword in melee. He doesn't cost much. His Ld aura basically means you aren't taking Ld losses from Aspects. But you're buying a Chapter Master and getting no reroll aura - just a meh gun and a weak beatstick. He might get a MW or two in the movement phase, but not against what you need the MW on.

This is basically what most of the boil down to - an interesting rule, and some fun utility - but they just don't measure up.

Remember that none of the PLs give the sorts of auras we expect out of Chapter Master-level characters - they mostly get other auras instead. Also remember that they have no subfaction Trait (they do not have the <Craftworld> keyword).

All that said, they're all fun. And Maugen Ra is a nice toolbox who's certainly worth it in some armies.

Jain Zar seems like a winner. Advance and charge, +1 to be hit in HTH, 3+ to take away a Smash Captain Thunderhammer. A fair gun, and decent output in HTH. Fuegan isn’t terrible, but not great. Karandras does seem to need a update, but I don’t think you can dismiss hit Mortal wound output and having a strong presence with a No hit modifier powerfist, with the ability to explode.

What is nutz is I have all these models. I own all 6 Phoenix lords and ~10 of each aspect warrior, but I play imperium. Maybe I’ll give them a try.

Please do. I always enjoy mine when they're on the table!

Asurman and Baharoth are my favorite, though. I'm partway through replacing Jain Zar with another kitbash. I have the officail model, but hated it. Kitbashed it once, but felt the stance is wrong. Still trying to figure out the right bits to get the stance "right".

Bharring wrote:
On paper, they have some interesting rules. In practice, they're some cool rules, but don't change much.

Asurman's aura seems cool, but it's a lot of points to give 2/3rds of an 11ppm unit a 4++. Other Aspects get a 5++, but nothing else does. So it oculd be cool if you're running an Aspect horde blob - but they just don't work that way. And if you're not running a huge Aspect blob, you get much more survivability by taking more doods. And Guardians - even without the aura - do that horde blob better. Also, unlike Chapter Masters, he doesn't give out any reroll aura at all.

Karrandas and leveraging the hell out of exploding attacks on Scorpions sounds great, until you realize that you get many, many more attacks just by taking more Scorpions instead of Karrandas. Also, no reroll aura.

Baharroth is a low-ROF mid-S gun, and a Powersword in melee. He doesn't cost much. His Ld aura basically means you aren't taking Ld losses from Aspects. But you're buying a Chapter Master and getting no reroll aura - just a meh gun and a weak beatstick. He might get a MW or two in the movement phase, but not against what you need the MW on.

This is basically what most of the boil down to - an interesting rule, and some fun utility - but they just don't measure up.

Remember that none of the PLs give the sorts of auras we expect out of Chapter Master-level characters - they mostly get other auras instead. Also remember that they have no subfaction Trait (they do not have the <Craftworld> keyword).

All that said, they're all fun. And Maugen Ra is a nice toolbox who's certainly worth it in some armies.

Asurmen is a beast in combat though however the invuln bubble is only 6". But you are right, you basicaly need an autarch as well for the re-rolls so you end up taking the autarch and spend those points on a crimson hunter exarch...

The PL's not in a great postion sculpt or rule wise sadly. situationaly they can be awesome and can be made to work but the points are just more efficient on other stuff sadly IMO :(.

I think the Phoenix Lords suffer from early-book syndrome. They'd be fine if everything that came later wasn't significantly stronger/better.

Asurmen is expensive, particularly when he's fielding basic avenger shuriken catapults (seriously at his cost, just give him a minor boost. -1 AP or something on his guns so he's not a joke) He is survivable with an actual invulnerable save which is fantastic.

Baharroth is underwhelming but cheap.

Fuegan is one of my favourites. 5+ feel-no-pain and he goes super-sayan when wounded. He also has tremendously potent weapons. He's actually a serious beat-stick but does suffer from a lack of invulnerable saves like many other PLs.

Jain Zar is okay, particularly with the new cost. However, if this was a later book, she'd have 6-7 attacks base. She's not deadly enough to survive return attacks by most enemy units (particularly with so many cheap models now capable of throwing 3-5 attacks apiece)

Karandras suffers from being a close-combat character who may struggle to get there. Without the benefits Jain Zar has, he's really just asking to be shot. Also, I hate units which have weapons you'll never use (see: Scorpion Chainsword). This is lazy game design. Give it a stat-line or trait which makes us actually use his other weapon. He's cool, but as mentioned above...not worth a full squad of Scorpions (same cost).

Maugan Ra is pretty solid because he can actually stay at range (only Phoenix Lord with a range beyond 24"). Keep him in cover for a 1+ save (which translates into almost having an invulnerable save) and he's solid. No real beef here.

PS: Even though I genuinely don't believe we'll see a plastic Aspect/Phoenix Lord launch...I do hope we see some Aspect Warrior based specialist detachments in the future - a couple traits or stratagems could turn some of these units from "meh" into some really decent options. I run a ton of aspect warriors anyway...and lose terribly.