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Just thought about this, are there any Space Marines from any Loyalist chapter who actively infiltrate Chaos Space Marine Legions? Or would there be too many complications to have it work out?

It does happen - there was a short story about a Librarian (IIRC) infiltrating the Red Corsairs.

EDIT: Nope, remembered that - I was thinking of 'Into the Maelstrom', and it was a Red Corsair Librarian who wanted to repent.

beast_gts wrote:
It does happen - there was a short story about a Librarian (IIRC) infiltrating the Red Corsairs.

EDIT: Nope, remembered that - I was thinking of 'Into the Maelstrom', and it was a Red Corsair Librarian who wanted to repent.

Interesting, I never heard of a traitor wanting to repent for crimes against the Imperium, I thought traitors were killed on sight.

How often are traitors accepted back into the Imperium?

 Jazzylee wrote:
How often are traitors accepted back into the Imperium?

Very rarely - if they're not tainted they can join the Deathwatch as Black Shields.

keep in mind chaos is, inheriently corruptive, thus anyone spying on chaos would eventually fall

Also keep in mind that marines are normally recruited based on their combat skills. Their training is focused on their combat skills. Their culture is often honour-based, and many of them prefer to wear bright colours on the battlefield. I would not expect marines to possess the kind of skills or mindset required for espionage.

Callidus assassins are, however, selected based on their skills in infiltration. I'm not sure if their polymorphine could allow them to pose as an astartes.

Further to BrianDavion's point - even if the marine in question didn't fall, how would the marine's handlers know? Any information received from a marine-spy should be viewed with the utmost of suspicion... which makes it unlikely that such a spying mission would ever be launched.

Insert meme here regarding the Alpha Legion secretly being loyalists.

Mallich wrote:


Insert meme here regarding the Alpha Legion secretly being loyalists.

Insert meme of Dark Angels/Fallen here...

Mallich wrote:
Also keep in mind that marines are normally recruited based on their combat skills. Their training is focused on their combat skills. Their culture is often honour-based, and many of them prefer to wear bright colours on the battlefield. I would not expect marines to possess the kind of skills or mindset required for espionage.

Callidus assassins are, however, selected based on their skills in infiltration. I'm not sure if their polymorphine could allow them to pose as an astartes.

Further to BrianDavion's point - even if the marine in question didn't fall, how would the marine's handlers know? Any information received from a marine-spy should be viewed with the utmost of suspicion... which makes it unlikely that such a spying mission would ever be launched.

Insert meme here regarding the Alpha Legion secretly being loyalists.

One of the books I actually enjoyed was Deliverance Lost and while it was about AL infiltrating a Raven Guard unit it highlighted why this wasn't something that happened commonly - the AL spy came close to being caught because he couldn't figure out the layout of the RG base, which only had color codings and no signs for where different areas are.

Chapters/legions are just incredibly idiosyncratic in how they lay out their ships/bases, how they train, what languages they speak, etc. And maybe it's secrecy or a legacy of the remembrancers being killed off but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of intelligence work or record keeping on how each legion operates.

Add to that the difficulty of fitting in with Chaos - a more secular legion like Iron Warriors or Night Lords may be a possibility for spying, but what happens when it's chaos worship time at the Word Bearers temple and you don't know the words to the opening hymn?

 Jazzylee wrote:
Just thought about this, are there any Space Marines from any Loyalist chapter who actively infiltrate Chaos Space Marine Legions? Or would there be too many complications to have it work out?

Spying becomes a lot more difficult against a side which can and will use telepaths .

I don't recall any stories about that. It would likely be a one way trip given the over all effect chaos has on people exposed to it long term. I doubt the spy would be welcomed back.

 Jazzylee wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
It does happen - there was a short story about a Librarian (IIRC) infiltrating the Red Corsairs.

EDIT: Nope, remembered that - I was thinking of 'Into the Maelstrom', and it was a Red Corsair Librarian who wanted to repent.

Interesting, I never heard of a traitor wanting to repent for crimes against the Imperium, I thought traitors were killed on sight.

How often are traitors accepted back into the Imperium?

There was the whole Soul Drinkers saga, where

 ScarletRose wrote:
One of the books I actually enjoyed was Deliverance Lost and while it was about AL infiltrating a Raven Guard unit it highlighted why this wasn't something that happened commonly - the AL spy came close to being caught because he couldn't figure out the layout of the RG base, which only had color codings and no signs for where different areas are.

Chapters/legions are just incredibly idiosyncratic in how they lay out their ships/bases, how they train, what languages they speak, etc. And maybe it's secrecy or a legacy of the remembrancers being killed off but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of intelligence work or record keeping on how each legion operates.

Another 30k book has a Loyalist Dark Angel infiltrate a Space Wolf ship to see if they're loyal - his disguise is perfect but he's caught due to his smell (IIRC).

beast_gts wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
One of the books I actually enjoyed was Deliverance Lost and while it was about AL infiltrating a Raven Guard unit it highlighted why this wasn't something that happened commonly - the AL spy came close to being caught because he couldn't figure out the layout of the RG base, which only had color codings and no signs for where different areas are.

Chapters/legions are just incredibly idiosyncratic in how they lay out their ships/bases, how they train, what languages they speak, etc. And maybe it's secrecy or a legacy of the remembrancers being killed off but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of intelligence work or record keeping on how each legion operates.

Another 30k book has a Loyalist Dark Angel infiltrate a Space Wolf ship to see if they're loyal - his disguise is perfect but he's caught due to his smell (IIRC).

Probably don't smell as bad as the death guard, but that's interesting.

On one hand, a capable space marine would be well-capable of hiding amongst his traitor comrades given the power variances that are capable of occurring, but Chaos is too corruptible, so even they wouldn't last long. It would be interesting if Chaos forces had to occasionally employ their variant of an Inquisitor to snuff out any loyalists.

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind chaos is, inheriently corruptive, thus anyone spying on chaos would eventually fall

'Bloodquest' is a good example of this (although I'm not sure if it's still canon).

 Jazzylee wrote:
Interesting, I never heard of a traitor wanting to repent for crimes against the Imperium, I thought traitors were killed on sight.

How often are traitors accepted back into the Imperium?

I can't think of any examples in 40K fluff. The Horus Heresy novels have several Marines from Traitor legions who remained loyal to the Emperor (Nathaniel Garro is the most notable example) but they are generally treated with extreme suspicion. Garro mainly gets to walk about thanks to the patronage of Malcador the Sigilite.

There is also Barthusa Narek, a Word Bearer sniper who repented of turning to Chaos and returned to worshiping the Emperor as a god. He didn't try to return to the Imperium though and largely settled for hunting down other traitors before teaming up with Eldrad Ulthran to wipe out the Perpetuals.

Unless it was a Librarian, infiltrating a legion like the Thousand Sons would be impossible, and even there, given how everyone there is so psychically entwined with everyone else, it would be incredibly hard for a spy to maintain secrecy (also, there's the fact that most Rubric Marines have a distinct way of acting due to being dust, something that a flesh and blood person might be hard-pressed to mimic). For the Death Guard, the presence of no mutations or aura of disease would be a dead giveaway. Joining a Khornate or Slaaneshi legion or war band is probably out of the question as the spy would have to constantly engage in actions deemed ultra-heretical by the Imperium. Even if they had a special dispensation that allowed them to do these things, having to live the life of a World Eater or Emperor's Child while maintaining one's loyalty would be a near-impossible balance, with the spy most likely either falling to Chaos, going hopelessly insane, or committing suicide. Beyond maybe the Iron Warriors, infiltration into one of the original Traitor Legions would almost certainly not work out. The best one could hope for would be to infiltrate an independent war band, as these CSM might still engage in some residual Imperial practices and would not be as steeped in Chaos as the legions.

If one did want to successfully a legion or warband, a SM would probably not be the best choice. Instead, having a spy disguise themselves as a cultist or other low-level follower might work better, as they could observe the CSM without having to directly engage with them and try to be one of them. Also, as a baseline human physically cannot do many things that SM can, they would not be expected to take part in some of the most extreme forms of Chaos worship, nor would they be expected to perform superhuman feats in battle. They thus might largely be ignored, allowing the spy to observe from a safe distance and be at far less risk of succumbing to Chaos or being discovered.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
If one did want to successfully a legion or warband, a SM would probably not be the best choice. Instead, having a spy disguise themselves as a cultist or other low-level follower might work better, as they could observe the CSM without having to directly engage with them and try to be one of them. Also, as a baseline human physically cannot do many things that SM can, they would not be expected to take part in some of the most extreme forms of Chaos worship, nor would they be expected to perform superhuman feats in battle. They thus might largely be ignored, allowing the spy to observe from a safe distance and be at far less risk of succumbing to Chaos or being discovered.

That would definitely be the way to go, but I think it would still be extremely risky. Cultists and serfs are treated as disposable by a lot of the chaos legions, in addition where they are portrayed with any detail they seem to have their own cultures that would be hard to blend in with.

I'm thinking specifically of the Nightlords Omnibus - their serfs speak a language (Nostroman) that's probably considered dead and forgotten by the 41st millennium.

There has been at least one story where a marine or some human individual was mind wiped to believe he was truly a renegade, and then had the false persona removed so he could report to the inquisitor.

There was an old short story about a loyalist inside a renegade group.

When he got found out, his arms and legs were removed with a chain axe (in "ritual combat") and the rest of him was interred into a dreadnought sarcophagus.

Loyalist dreads have the sarcophagi as suspension units when they are not needed. They sleep.
Renegades do not have the escape of sleep. They are ALWAYS awake. Trapped in a box they cannot escape. This is why they are seen as the "nutso" ones.

 chromedog wrote:
There was an old short story about a loyalist inside a renegade group.

When he got found out, his arms and legs were removed with a chain axe (in "ritual combat") and the rest of him was interred into a dreadnought sarcophagus.

Loyalist dreads have the sarcophagi as suspension units when they are not needed. They sleep.
Renegades do not have the escape of sleep. They are ALWAYS awake. Trapped in a box they cannot escape. This is why they are seen as the "nutso" ones.

That's 'Into the Maelstrom' - the librarian in question decided he didn't want to be a Red Corsair anymore and was a loyal Astral Claw (and tried to get the White Scars to help him).

beast_gts wrote:
It does happen - there was a short story about a Librarian (IIRC) infiltrating the Red Corsairs.

EDIT: Nope, remembered that - I was thinking of 'Into the Maelstrom', and it was a Red Corsair Librarian who wanted to repent.

Yep, this one

https://www.blacklibrary.com/downloads/product/pdf/m/maelstrom.pdf

 ScarletRose wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
If one did want to successfully a legion or warband, a SM would probably not be the best choice. Instead, having a spy disguise themselves as a cultist or other low-level follower might work better, as they could observe the CSM without having to directly engage with them and try to be one of them. Also, as a baseline human physically cannot do many things that SM can, they would not be expected to take part in some of the most extreme forms of Chaos worship, nor would they be expected to perform superhuman feats in battle. They thus might largely be ignored, allowing the spy to observe from a safe distance and be at far less risk of succumbing to Chaos or being discovered.

That would definitely be the way to go, but I think it would still be extremely risky. Cultists and serfs are treated as disposable by a lot of the chaos legions, in addition where they are portrayed with any detail they seem to have their own cultures that would be hard to blend in with.

I'm thinking specifically of the Nightlords Omnibus - their serfs speak a language (Nostroman) that's probably considered dead and forgotten by the 41st millennium.

That's a good point, though I don't see why a spy couldn't learn the language and the basics of the culture before going on the mission. If the government felt that the venture was important enough, I'm sure that there are some documents deep in the Imperial archives that could be of use, even if they are forgotten by most people and highly classified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chromedog wrote:
There was an old short story about a loyalist inside a renegade group.

When he got found out, his arms and legs were removed with a chain axe (in "ritual combat") and the rest of him was interred into a dreadnought sarcophagus.

Loyalist dreads have the sarcophagi as suspension units when they are not needed. They sleep.
Renegades do not have the escape of sleep. They are ALWAYS awake. Trapped in a box they cannot escape. This is why they are seen as the "nutso" ones.

Was it a dreadnought or a helbrute? From what I've know, helbrutes are the ones that particularly go extremely insane.

I can't really see a loyalist marine not either quickly getting caught or falling to Chaos in an attempt to infiltrate a Chaos Space Marine warband. I especially don't see it being a worthwhile endeavor since the marine would be at the lowest level of the warband which I imagine means they don't know anything more than the immediate operations that CSM warband is planning to engage in. The need to know in CSM is probably pretty low for the rank and file CSM and the want to know is probably even lower. So all and all, a very high risk, low reward investment.

Non-superhumans would be a better fit, but even then, they would have to be strong enough of will (pretty close to Inquisitor levels) to resist the whispers of Chaos. Only to once again not likely get much intelligence since more savage warbands don't have any and more cunning ones would still maintain some level of opsec just in case. So again, high risk with potentially low reward. Still...I could see human spies being at least attempted since both the resources are less and the intelligence gained are much better than using an actual marine.

Im pretty sure any attempted spy attempts into the actual heretic astartes legions or warbands are both very very very rare and can never end well. You cant really pretend to be chaos. Its why the Alpha Legion loyalist tripe is so.....well......tripe. You don't pretend to chaos. Now imperial agents infiltrating a cult or renegade IG army, sure.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Was it a dreadnought or a helbrute? From what I've know, helbrutes are the ones that particularly go extremely insane.

Chaos dreadnoughts deteriorate into hellbrutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, wasn't there a Gaunt's Ghosts book where some of the Chaos forces tried to defect?

In the setting chaos is such a powerful corrupting force and such a huge secret that most marines wouldn’t know of it, those who fight it are mind wiped at best and if a marine was seconded to the inquisition and placed under cover in a traitor or renegade force he would either be corrupted or killed as soon as his mission was done. Theirs a reason they kill whole planets and the like when it comes into contact with chaos. Not worth the risk.

Also the risk would be huge, with all the witches, demons and other warped beasties, hiding your true desires and intentions are very difficult if not impossible.

 ph34r wrote:
There has been at least one story where a marine or some human individual was mind wiped to believe he was truly a renegade, and then had the false persona removed so he could report to the inquisitor.

That was an imperial agent infiltrating renagades/heretics with psychically implanted deep cover.

There is no reason to imagine that a duty like this would fall to a spacemarine chapter- their purview is entirely ass kicking. most would consider something like this dishonourable. Guilliman's reforms and new stealth teams might disagree.

If something like this were attempted, it would be far more likely to be a spacemarine who for whatever reason, was part of an inquisitors retinue and no longer reported to his chapter. They would have to have demonstrated a resistance to chaos corruption, either through mental feat or some spark of divinity. Hmmm...

Andykp wrote:In the setting chaos is such a powerful corrupting force and such a huge secret that most marines wouldn’t know of it, those who fight it are mind wiped at best and if a marine was seconded to the inquisition and placed under cover in a traitor or renegade force he would either be corrupted or killed as soon as his mission was done. Theirs a reason they kill whole planets and the like when it comes into contact with chaos. Not worth the risk.

Also the risk would be huge, with all the witches, demons and other warped beasties, hiding your true desires and intentions are very difficult if not impossible.

This is key. Also, chaos is a corrupting force that does not require your consent or buy in (though it helps) You can be physically corrupted and spiritually corrupted by standing next to chaos, like scifi radiation. You'd have to have greyknight level wards on your soul and somehow avoid the the chaos wizard/sorcerer/daemon host next door noticing. This is why I reckon you would be better off infiltrating a chaos cult with a human assassin, as they are sent into meatgrinders without any kind of vetting. It would be hard for a peon to get closwe to the marines themselves, but you send in enough spies and it might happen.

I say yes. Why not? It adds more sophistication to the lore. But like others said, it might be a lot harder with some of the more intoxicated legions, like the Deathguard or Emperors Children.

There is a fluff blurb about a captured renegade sorcerer, that gets sent back with another marine to infiltrate the Red Corsairs.

Huron is immediately suspicious of the Marine, and has the Sorcerer kill the schmuck.

Huron misleads the sorcerer, waits until the Sorc sends a false message back to the loyalists, then blocks his Psychic powers, chops him up, and inters him in a sarcophagus (not attached to a dread). Guy goes crazy, the end.


The idea just doesn’t work, unfortunately. In a universe where people can sense your intentions, literal manifestations of your emotions can appear, you basically can’t fake your allegiance to Chaos.