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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





So are combi flamers any good for chaos terminators as am putting a squad together today and am not sure if there worth it.
If any of you have experience of running them please let me know you’re views.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:44:16


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Generally, no. Flamers need a bigger cost reduction, because they almost never get used - especially on terminators. You're just never in range to use them effectively, so, it's better to just have a combi-bolter.


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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks for the info. But I was going to be using them in close combat primarily also close range. Would they still not be worth it?

I play against Dark Elder so am always getting into close combat a lot and fast.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 13:59:12


 
   
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver




Sweden

Even if you reduce them to 0 pts, a regular combi bolter is better. Range is the issue if you plan to deep strike. If you are using them with LR, then you might get to use the flamers, but why really? ~400 pts to maybe wipe out a squad pf guardsmen with short range weapons? Just regular bolters, plasma or meltas will be more usefull

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Gitdakka wrote:
Even if you reduce them to 0 pts, a regular combi bolter is better. Range is the issue if you plan to deep strike. If you are using them with LR, then you might get to use the flamers, but why really? ~400 pts to maybe wipe out a squad pf guardsmen with short range weapons? Just regular bolters, plasma or meltas will be more usefull



Was going to deep strike them most of the time I just thought having flamers in over watchmight be worth it.
   
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 Voltan wrote:
Thanks for the info. But I was going to be using them in close combat primarily also close range. Would they still not be worth it?

I play against Dark Elder so am always getting into close combat a lot and fast.


Well consider this -

You deepstrike. You can't shoot with them, because you're out of range. If you make your charge then you still don't use them. If you clear what you charged then you'll get to use them if they charge, but that's unlikely if they have ravagers to tickle you to death. If you live then you have to hope something stayed within 13" that doesn't like flamers and if so hope that it doesn't cut your chances at making the next charge.

It's better to just go cheap with bolters and shoot them at something else and charge what is in front of you. If you need some more oompf then feel free to get some plasma or melta to throw at ravagers and other vehicles, but I'd be leery of flamers.

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Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, flamers just aren't that good in 8th ed. In earlier editions they were fairly useful as you can usually hit most, if not all models in the unit, and they ignored cover.

Now its a set D3 or a D6 and doesn't even ignore cover. Which is pretty crap.

Removing templates were a mistake, imo. I understand why they did it, and it was fiddly at times, but it did make explosives and flamers behave properly in terms of damage.

Prior to 8th edition a battle cannon can kill something like 10 models in one shot. Now it can only kill up to six you are lucky.

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I could be mistaken but I think the general consensus is that Flamers and Heavy Flamers are overpriced right now.

- On offense Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters are a lot more points efficient.

- Flamers are better for countering charges but you need them in quantity and that's both expensive and bad for your offensive output.

Subject to change without much warning though. The Big FAQ could drop Flamers to 2 points and Heavy Flamers to 10 for Loyalist and Traitor Marines, and then we're all refiguring our calculations.
   
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Honestly, the heavy flamer has always had range issues, the price is also on the expensive side.

The reaper autocannon on the other hand is now 10 pts, for whatever reason, has more S and range.

Frankly the best options for CSM terminators is to make them as cheap as possible, or go full plasma shenanigans.

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Flamers would almost be worth it if they were free. Heavy flamers should maybe cost no more than 5 points. The reality is, you usually get to fire them once all game, sometimes never.
   
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Slipspace wrote:
Flamers would almost be worth it if they were free. Heavy flamers should maybe cost no more than 5 points. The reality is, you usually get to fire them once all game, sometimes never.


god, remember that time we had a huge GSC rage thread because they made the GSC's hand flamers 1pt and then they gave them a 2CP stratagem that allowed them to output slightly less S3 firepower per point than FRFSRF guardsmen within 12"?

Now we want Marines to have regular flamers for free :^)

I'd say on marines Flamers are maybe a 2-pt upgrade, heavy flamers maybe like 4 because in most instances if you can get heavy flamers you're giving up a storm bolter or a heavy bolter on that platform, and the extra hits are rarely worth the drop in range, so they should be comparable to a SB or HB in terms of cost.
   
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Thanks everyone I won’t be taken flamers after the information you have given me.
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






I'm going to weigh in with a different point of view.

Are flamers correctly priced? I honestly don't know.

But do consider how effective they are on Overwatch. Terminators are pricey as it is, and a decent tactic for dealing with them is to pile in a chaffe unit to keep them amused, whilst you get jucier targets safely out of range.

So if you're intending to use them as a CC unit, rather than a more general purpose role, Flamers become more appealing, because of the amount of Overwatch they kick out.

And you're still getting your single bolter barrel into the bargain.

So have a think about the role you want your Terminators to fulfil, and consider how Flamers interact with that.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm going to weigh in with a different point of view.

Are flamers correctly priced? I honestly don't know.

But do consider how effective they are on Overwatch. Terminators are pricey as it is, and a decent tactic for dealing with them is to pile in a chaffe unit to keep them amused, whilst you get jucier targets safely out of range.

So if you're intending to use them as a CC unit, rather than a more general purpose role, Flamers become more appealing, because of the amount of Overwatch they kick out.

And you're still getting your single bolter barrel into the bargain.

So have a think about the role you want your Terminators to fulfil, and consider how Flamers interact with that.


Even with overwatch to consider a flamer still isn't worth more than 2 or 3 points. It definitely is worth at least 2 though, and it's more worth that 2-3 if you can take a bunch of them. One isn't slowing most assault units down, five is another story. I wouldn't consider Flamers on, say, Company Veterans even at 2 points, but 3 point combi-flamers? I'd seriously contemplate converting some of those.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Flamers would almost be worth it if they were free. Heavy flamers should maybe cost no more than 5 points. The reality is, you usually get to fire them once all game, sometimes never.


god, remember that time we had a huge GSC rage thread because they made the GSC's hand flamers 1pt and then they gave them a 2CP stratagem that allowed them to output slightly less S3 firepower per point than FRFSRF guardsmen within 12"?

Now we want Marines to have regular flamers for free :^).


Yes, it's almost like we're dealing with 2 completely different scenarios

By any objective measure a flamer on a Space Marine is, at best, about as good as a bolter, assuming you ever get to fire it..
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Considering storm bolters/combi-bolters now cost 2 points, a flamer should only cost 1 point.

The SB/CB gets more shots on average (4 vs. 3.5) and has better range.

Taking flamers literally nets you: Auto hits in overwatch if they charge from 8" away. Mabey more shots if your lucky and at point blank range.

I would pay 2 points for flamers at max currently on marines.

5 points for guardsmen equivalent if only because they have worse BS and don't get beta bolter rules.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Considering storm bolters/combi-bolters now cost 2 points, a flamer should only cost 1 point.

The SB/CB gets more shots on average (4 vs. 3.5) and has better range.

Taking flamers literally nets you: Auto hits in overwatch if they charge from 8" away. Mabey more shots if your lucky and at point blank range.

I would pay 2 points for flamers at max currently on marines.

5 points for guardsmen equivalent if only because they have worse BS and don't get beta bolter rules.


Storm bolters still have to roll to hit with those 4 shots, so it's really only 2.67 to 3.5.

I'm finding that SBs go best on Veterans with shields; I want a 3:2 ratio of SBs to other special weapons in those squads, and then I want them in a Crusader / Razorback so I can get them right up in the enemy's grill. On that squad no question I'd at least proxy all the SBs as Flamers or CFs if they dropped to 2 pts and 3 pts respectively.
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






As I mentioned, it also depends on how you're using your Terminators.

If you're using them aggressively, and intend (by hook or by crook) to get them in the midst of the enemy, Flamers may be a preferential choice. They allow them to deal with hordes and other infantry with greater efficiency, and to be thorny prospect to charge.

This doesn't mean they're auto-great. Just that they're situational, and one should always consider the situation, and whether it's likely to apply.

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I think they're bad on Terminators for 2 main reason (both are range, hah):

1.
You can't shoot from deep strike.

2.
You can't shoot someone charging you from deep strike.

Due to these, I think the Reaper Autocannon is much more useful and versatile.
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






I'm not sure if he's referring to Heavy Flamers, or Combi-Flamers.

If it's Heavy Flamers? Yeah, totally not worth it. Too specialised, particularly as getting stuck into HTH is likely to, ahem, reap better rewards.

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...even the 30k loyalist terminator options are limited to Stormbolters/Combi Bolters, and that means that warpsmiths figured out that putting real guns on a terminator was a good idea post-heresy.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not sure if he's referring to Heavy Flamers, or Combi-Flamers.

If it's Heavy Flamers? Yeah, totally not worth it. Too specialised, particularly as getting stuck into HTH is likely to, ahem, reap better rewards.



Sorry yes am talking about combi
   
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The Newman wrote:
...even the 30k loyalist terminator options are limited to Stormbolters/Combi Bolters, and that means that warpsmiths figured out that putting real guns on a terminator was a good idea post-heresy.

To quote Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."


...What? Chaos Terminators' heavy weapon picks (Reaper autocannon/heavy flamer) are the standard 30k picks, alongside the plasma blaster (gone in 40k except for Tartaros squads because that's the only kit GW shipped the bit in), and any 30k Terminator can have a twin bolter, combi-weapon, or volkite charger.

It is true that "Devastator Terminators" are more prevalent in Traitor Legions (IW Tyrants with Cyclone launchers, Grave Wardens with rapid-fire grenade launchers), but the Ultramarines have a squad with all autocannons or all Cyclone launchers...

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




In theory aggressors with the flame gauntlets, the +1 to wounds strat and vulkan hestan's aura of re-rolling wounds with flamers are devastating. They each kill five guardsmen and six orcs on average.
But the likelihood of getting to do that is low to say the least. Maybe if they jump out of repulsor, their lack of speed doesn't do them many favours either.
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Newman wrote:
...even the 30k loyalist terminator options are limited to Stormbolters/Combi Bolters, and that means that warpsmiths figured out that putting real guns on a terminator was a good idea post-heresy.

To quote Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."


...What? Chaos Terminators' heavy weapon picks (Reaper autocannon/heavy flamer) are the standard 30k picks, alongside the plasma blaster (gone in 40k except for Tartaros squads because that's the only kit GW shipped the bit in), and any 30k Terminator can have a twin bolter, combi-weapon, or volkite charger.

It is true that "Devastator Terminators" are more prevalent in Traitor Legions (IW Tyrants with Cyclone launchers, Grave Wardens with rapid-fire grenade launchers), but the Ultramarines have a squad with all autocannons or all Cyclone launchers...


I stand corrected.

I don't actually play 30k, I was going by the options that come in the Tartarus / Cataphracii boxes. Which is dumb, considering how many options are missing from the Tac marine box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 20:06:28


 
   
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Flamers are just plain bad, and they used to be such a staple weapon. They did not take the conversion from templates well. The range is just TOO short to do anything with.

I think they need a rework from the ground up. If people really want them to work well I think there should be a number of shots scale. I.E. for 1-5 models in unit, D6 shots, for 5-9 it would be D3+3, and finally for 10+ it would be straight 6. Make that scale applied to all flamer weapons and you go instead from a weirdly powerful anti tank and anti flyer weapon to its purpose of clearing mass infantry AND it acts as a hard counter to large units like cultists and conscripts. I can only imagine the pain caused by dual flamer Crisis suits or combi termies getting into range of a horde unit. And on the plus side they arent going to be wrecking things like tanks any better than now.

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The Newman wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Newman wrote:
...even the 30k loyalist terminator options are limited to Stormbolters/Combi Bolters, and that means that warpsmiths figured out that putting real guns on a terminator was a good idea post-heresy.

To quote Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."


...What? Chaos Terminators' heavy weapon picks (Reaper autocannon/heavy flamer) are the standard 30k picks, alongside the plasma blaster (gone in 40k except for Tartaros squads because that's the only kit GW shipped the bit in), and any 30k Terminator can have a twin bolter, combi-weapon, or volkite charger.

It is true that "Devastator Terminators" are more prevalent in Traitor Legions (IW Tyrants with Cyclone launchers, Grave Wardens with rapid-fire grenade launchers), but the Ultramarines have a squad with all autocannons or all Cyclone launchers...


I stand corrected.

I don't actually play 30k, I was going by the options that come in the Tartarus / Cataphracii boxes. Which is dumb, considering how many options are missing from the Tac marine box.


Those boxes are essentially to HH what Easy to Build is to 40k. If you want the full options, you have to pay more and get the resin
   
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Giving Flamers a 9" range (optimally 12") would automatically make them significantly better. My complaints about them would almost go entirely out the window at that point.

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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Giving Flamers a 9" range (optimally 12") would automatically make them significantly better. My complaints about them would almost go entirely out the window at that point.


They still wouldn't be able to shoot from deep strike with 9" range. If you're within 9" then you were setup incorrectly. They need to be 10".
   
 
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