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Frustrating game tonight. Opponent walked because he thought my Chaos Lord was illegal. I think he was mistaken, can someone give me a second opinion?

The unit in question was a Black Legion Chaos Lord with a jump pack, the Flames of Spite warlord trait, and the Ghorisvex's Teeth artifact. I swapped his Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword from the Melee Weapons list.

Here's the relevant rules:

Flames of Spite: "if the wound roll for a melee weapon attack made by your Warlord is 6+, it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage."

Ghorisvex's Teeth: S User / AP -3 / D2. "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon. Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ for an attack made with this weapon, the target of the attack suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage."

He decided to quit after the Chaos Lord charged a unit of 3 Talos. My guy had Mark of Khorne, Diabolic Strength and Veterans of the Long War. He did 16 wounds - 8 mortal wounds from the WT + Relic plus 8 for the attacks themselves. It was enough to kill 2 Talos and, at the end of the fight phase, I used Fury of Khorne to fight again and kill the last one.

I didn't catch everything he said about why the Chaos Lord is illegal, the complaints I remember are:

1) The Warlord is Black Legion. He must take a Black Legion warlord trait, not one from C:CSM.

2) Chaos Lords can't take 2 chainswords and shouldn't get an extra attack unless he's only fighting with the Chainsword.

3) Rolling 6's to wound should not do 2 mortal wounds. Either the Warlord Trait applies or the Relic applies, not both.

Pretty sure BL Warlords can take any Warlord Trait from the BRB, CCSM or Vigilus Ablaze.

I thought it was legal to swap the Bolt Pistol for an item from the melee weapons list.

I thought the chainsword gave an extra attack in combat, you didn't need to declare what weapon he's using to fight.

I don't see why the WT and the Relic don't stack.

Can anyone help me understand what I did wrong?

1) well I don't have chaos codex so MAYBE chaos is special(40k certainly has no unified method for lots of things...) but at least with orks if I have warlord with clan X I'm not limited to clan specific warlord traits but can take from non-clan specific ones and rulebook ones.
2) Can't comment can he take it(don't know wording) but for 2nd chainsword, again unless chaos chainswords work completely differently to everybody else's chainswords, you get attack when you FIGHT. No mention whatsoever you need to use the chainsword. Blood angel death company member with power fist and chainsword will happily attack with fist AND get extra attack from chainsword with chainsword stats.
3) those wordings you pasted don't say anything indicating no. Knights have relic+strategem both being "each 6 to hit is 2 hits" that doesn't combo because it's 2 hits. You get 2 hits period. If they were "extra hit" then both would trigger.

Sounds like he got confused with 40k rules(easy to do with the confusing mess they are) and got sour gripe when this combo pulled up first time. He went "this is too powerful, can't be legal" feeling.

You are correct on all counts. Opponent is in the wrong.

Do note that Fury of Khorne can only be activated at the end of the Fight phase, and thus the opponent should have had an opportunity to swing at your Chaos Lord with his remaining Talos before his second round of attacks.

The gear and WLT on your chaos lord is legal.

1) the black legion rules say "If your Warlord is from the BLACK LEGION , you can choose one of the Warlord Traits on page 192 instead of those presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines." (P. 189 Vigilus Ablaze) so it is Optional, and perfectly legal to pick a Codex: Chaos Space Marines or a BLACK LEGION Warlord Trait.

2) 2 Chainswords is legal on a Chaos Lord from C:CSM. You get 1 extra attack from each Chainsword, but they use the Chainswords profile.

3) I do not see any reason they both would not apply. So when rolling to wound for the "Ghorisvex's Teeth" you generate 2 MW's for every 6+ and when using the Chainswords attacks you generate one MW for every 6+ rolled.

Can anyone help me understand what I did wrong?

Ruleswise you did nothing wrong but maybee you just got him on the wrong foot when he didn't know the new BL rules and relics which in this case are indeed quite killy.

Maybee you could've warned him?
Dunno.
Or maybee your opponent had a bad day?

Edit: On a side note, the Chainsword explicitly states make an additional Attack with this weapons profile to the regular attacks which you can pick whatever weapon you chose. The chainsword ofcourse does not benefit fom the improved relic statline. That said your opponent surely has faced Berzerkers with chainaxe and Chainsword? So i don't get how he could say that would be illegal.

I wouldnt be happy either if the chainlord hit my army, and killed lots of points. But rules are rules, and GW has no clue what ridiculous constructs can arise from new rules, and they dont really care. When the next FAQ comes out it will get nerfed, problem solved. Until new rules come out.....

While your loadout and attacks are legal, you have to wait until the end of the fight phase to use Fury of Khorne, so your opponent should have gotten an opportunity to fight before you fought again.

 p5freak wrote:
I wouldnt be happy either if the chainlord hit my army, and killed lots of points. But rules are rules, and GW has no clue what ridiculous constructs can arise from new rules, and they dont really care. When the next FAQ comes out it will get nerfed, problem solved. Until new rules come out.....

I mean they nerffed tide of traitor and then reimplement it but on CSM.
granted it is CSM but still........
One would expect them to learn, in the same codex and edition to not repeat fails.

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Glad to know I was mostly right.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While your loadout and attacks are legal, you have to wait until the end of the fight phase to use Fury of Khorne, so your opponent should have gotten an opportunity to fight before you fought again.

Yeah, I did wait to the end of the fight phase for Fury of Khorne. The remaining Talos whiffed. Will update the OP to clarify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ruleswise you did nothing wrong but maybee you just got him on the wrong foot when he didn't know the new BL rules and relics which in this case are indeed quite killy.

Maybee you could've warned him?
Dunno.
Or maybee your opponent had a bad day?

Maybe. This wasn't the first time we played, I suspect the fact his Drukharii were losing to something new and unfamiliar had something to do with it.

But that's a reason for saying the Chaos Lord was an illegal build. I didn't catch everything he was saying, these are just the points I remember.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Edit: On a side note, the Chainsword explicitly states make an additional Attack with this weapons profile to the regular attacks which you can pick whatever weapon you chose. The chainsword ofcourse does not benefit fom the improved relic statline. That said your opponent surely has faced Berzerkers with chainaxe and Chainsword? So i don't get how he could say that would be illegal.

When I attacked, I just rolled 8 dice. Will need to remember to separate out the plain Chainsword attacks next time.

For the record: do you have to do one Chainsword attack to get the extra attack with it (for a total of 2?) If that's the case, it's almost not worth it, given how strong the Relic is.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Edit: On a side note, the Chainsword explicitly states make an additional Attack with this weapons profile to the regular attacks which you can pick whatever weapon you chose. The chainsword ofcourse does not benefit fom the improved relic statline. That said your opponent surely has faced Berzerkers with chainaxe and Chainsword? So i don't get how he could say that would be illegal.

When I attacked, I just rolled 8 dice. Will need to remember to separate out the plain Chainsword attacks next time.

For the record: do you have to do one Chainsword attack to get the extra attack with it (for a total of 2?) If that's the case, it's almost not worth it, given how strong the Relic is.

Ok, first the easy part: the chainsword:

Little text: "Each time the bearer fights he can make 1 additional attack with this weapon." good so far clear, you gain +1 regular chainsword attack from the chainsword.

Now the relic: The teeth function the same way, as in they generate an addition +2 attacks, and ofcourse the mortal wounds on top.

So in total whenever you fight you have to chose 1 weapon the charachter attacks with and use that profile, in this case you will always pick the Relic cause you are hopefully not stupid:

So you pick the relic for your lord: that would be 5 attacks with the relic base from the lord: Now the chainsword rules kick in, in this case +2 additional one from the relic using the relic profile (7 Relic attacks now) and +1 from the regular chainsword.

The relic mortal wounds ONLY apply to the Relic ATTACKS! The warlord trait applies to ALL attacks.
So the chainsword +1 does not stack with the WL trait because it is a normal run of the mill Chainsword.
The relic attacks do stack with the WL trait for mortal wounds, (and maybee DttfE).

So you have 7 Attacks with relic and 1 without.

Yes, the extra attack from the chainsword must be used to attack with the chainsword. You don't have to make any other attacks with it though if you don't want to.

This is the case form more or less any weapon that gives you extra attacks (the Index Custodes Misericordia gave an attack that could be used on anything, but that was changed in the Codex. I'm not aware of any other examples, but they may exist).

So it sounds like you did one thing wrong-you rolled the Chainsword attack with the Teeth's profile.

Everything else checks out.

Doesn't sound like you're wrong at all except in remembering that the second chainsword only does 1 MW. It's actually impressive that you worked 3 Talos with one chaos lord, to be fair, people treat Talos as a protective wall, and always assume they will hold.

Well done, nonetheless.

 KingCorpus wrote:
It's actually impressive that you worked 3 Talos with one chaos lord

Chainlord with all the trimmings inflicts one mortal wound per attack on average even before you get to it's 2+ wounding, -3 save, 2 damage regular hits. Killing a talos with mortal wounds is strictly average - if a dark apostle had been in the mix it could have easily been all three talos in the first attack.

A.T. wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
It's actually impressive that you worked 3 Talos with one chaos lord

Chainlord with all the trimmings inflicts one mortal wound per attack on average even before you get to it's 2+ wounding, -3 save, 2 damage regular hits. Killing a talos with mortal wounds is strictly average - if a dark apostle had been in the mix it could have easily been all three talos in the first attack.

Am I missing something? What he described has a +1 to wound from VotLW right? So would be mortals on 5+? If so then he hits on 2s rerolling 1s for his aura, 6.81 hits with the relic and then he would wound on 4s, with 2 mortals on a 5+. That gives 3.40 wounds and 4.54 mortals. This translates into 1.7 failed saves, giving a total of ~8 damage, ending up at ~7 wounds or 1 dead talos after FnP.

With a +3 to wound he'd be wounding on 2s and getting 2s mortals on 3s, 5.67 wounds, 9 mortals, 12.3 damage after saves and FnP, so slightly less than 2 taloi, on average with a +3 to wound and assuming the damage all spills over (which it won't, as it's dealt in D2 packets prior to the mortals).

I might easily be missing something though, I'm not super familiar with the new chaos stuff.

Drager wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
It's actually impressive that you worked 3 Talos with one chaos lord

Chainlord with all the trimmings inflicts one mortal wound per attack on average even before you get to it's 2+ wounding, -3 save, 2 damage regular hits. Killing a talos with mortal wounds is strictly average - if a dark apostle had been in the mix it could have easily been all three talos in the first attack.

Am I missing something? What he described has a +1 to wound from VotLW right? So would be mortals on 5+? If so then he hits on 2s rerolling 1s for his aura, 6.81 hits with the relic and then he would wound on 4s, with 2 mortals on a 5+. That gives 3.40 wounds and 4.54 mortals. This translates into 1.7 failed saves, giving a total of ~8 damage, ending up at ~7 wounds or 1 dead talos after FnP.

With a +3 to wound he'd be wounding on 2s and getting 2s mortals on 3s, 5.67 wounds, 9 mortals, 12.3 damage after saves and FnP, so slightly less than 2 taloi, on average with a +3 to wound and assuming the damage all spills over (which it won't, as it's dealt in D2 packets prior to the mortals).

I might easily be missing something though, I'm not super familiar with the new chaos stuff.

We're all still learning.

I'd like to know how to get +3 to wound on a Chainlord. The best wound buff I could figure was VotLW and the Soultearer Prayer from the Dark Apostle, which is only +2.

+1 to wound is decent as-is. He hit with all 8 attacks, he wounded 6 times (4 of those were 5+) and the Talos saved 2 of those. That's just above average rolling, he'd have done 12 MW with a +3 to wound. That's just too much.

Drager wrote:
Am I missing something? What he described has a +1 to wound from VotLW right? So would be mortals on 5+? If so then he hits on 2s rerolling 1s for his aura, 6.81 hits with the relic and then he would wound on 4s, with 2 mortals on a 5+. That gives 3.40 wounds and 4.54 mortals. This translates into 1.7 failed saves, giving a total of ~8 damage, ending up at ~7 wounds or 1 dead talos after FnP.

The example given had Diabolic Strength - so 8 attacks (as he was mis-using the chainsword) wouding a talos on 3+ and two mortals on a 5+.


Two talos in one go was above average, but the lord itself was also swinging short without help from a dark apostle.

A.T. wrote:

Drager wrote:
Am I missing something? What he described has a +1 to wound from VotLW right? So would be mortals on 5+? If so then he hits on 2s rerolling 1s for his aura, 6.81 hits with the relic and then he would wound on 4s, with 2 mortals on a 5+. That gives 3.40 wounds and 4.54 mortals. This translates into 1.7 failed saves, giving a total of ~8 damage, ending up at ~7 wounds or 1 dead talos after FnP.

The example given had Diabolic Strength - so 8 attacks (as he was mis-using the chainsword) wouding a talos on 3+ and two mortals on a 5+.


Two talos in one go was above average, but the lord itself was also swinging short without help from a dark apostle.

How did he get to StR 7 to wound in a 3+ with VOTLW?

Drager wrote:
How did he get to StR 7 to wound in a 3+ with VOTLW?

Talos is toughness 6, Lord with Diabolic Strength is S6 - so with VotLW he would wound it on 3+.

Haemonculus gives +1 toughness and is very likely to be there. I just assumed he was (I play DE not chaos). Taloi with no Haemie support is weird.

Drager wrote:
Haemonculus gives +1 toughness and is very likely to be there. I just assumed he was (I play DE not chaos). Taloi with no Haemie support is weird.

He had 2 units of Talos, there was a Haemonoculus near the other one. They were separated by a piece of scenery and this unit was outside the range of the aura.

The Talos units were screening 3 Venoms. I had a big Bloodletter Bomb (2 x 30) in reserve, his models were spread out to deny good spots for my guys to arrive.

This isn't the first time I've played his army. He was trying to mute the impact of my attack by having the Talos take the charge and fall back so the Venoms could shoot up the Bloodletters. The Chainlord's assault, along with the fact I held the Bloodletters back for Turn 3, screwed up that plan.

Geez... I better take a close look at the new books for Chaos, I kinda wrote them off in favor of playing Tau. That Chaos Lord is about as broke as I ever saw.

Just curious about two things. The first question is a sanity check for myself, the second question is whether you were morally justified in taking another person to value town for a rough and vigorous fleecing.

1. You fought with 2x chainswords and Ghorisvex's Teeth, with just two arms?

2. Since you brought "that" chaos lord, and probably brought "that" list with it. Did your opponent bring his "that" list as well, or were you "clubbing a baby seal without mercy"?

Ghorisvex's Teeth is an upgrade to a Chainsword. It's 2 two weapons total.

Of course, the game doesn't care how many arms you have. If it were possible to get 3 Chainswords onto a model legally, you would get 3 extra attacks. All that's stopping you is the datasheet not letting you take them in the first place.

 Stux wrote:
Ghorisvex's Teeth is an upgrade to a Chainsword. It's 2 two weapons total.

Of course, the game doesn't care how many arms you have. If it were possible to get 3 Chainswords onto a model legally, you would get 3 extra attacks. All that's stopping you is the datasheet not letting you take them in the first place.

Is the teeth an upgrade to the sword or does it read "replace a chainsword with"... if its a replacement, then I totally understand why the opponent flipped his lid. 8 attacks is completely over the top verses a paltry 7.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Ghorisvex's Teeth is an upgrade to a Chainsword. It's 2 two weapons total.

Of course, the game doesn't care how many arms you have. If it were possible to get 3 Chainswords onto a model legally, you would get 3 extra attacks. All that's stopping you is the datasheet not letting you take them in the first place.

Is the teeth an upgrade to the sword or does it read "replace a chainsword with"... if its a replacement, then I totally understand why the opponent flipped his lid. 8 attacks is completely over the top verses a paltry 7.

No the teeth are a relic chainsword just a fancy one , and a csm Lord can change all his equipment in. So you buy him 2 chainswords for 0 additional cost and give your relic slot out that turns one of them into the teeth one, maybee stitch on a jetpack and Khorne marking and make him the warlord with spitefull and watch the fireworks

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Geez... I better take a close look at the new books for Chaos, I kinda wrote them off in favor of playing Tau. That Chaos Lord is about as broke as I ever saw.

Just curious about two things. The first question is a sanity check for myself, the second question is whether you were morally justified in taking another person to value town for a rough and vigorous fleecing.

1. You fought with 2x chainswords and Ghorisvex's Teeth, with just two arms?

2. Since you brought "that" chaos lord, and probably brought "that" list with it. Did your opponent bring his "that" list as well, or were you "clubbing a baby seal without mercy"?

HA! That baby seal has been clubbing me the last 6 months.

The rest of his list was Ravagers, Razorwings and a Void Raven. While the Chaos Lord did something impressive, there was still a lot of game to play.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Geez... I better take a close look at the new books for Chaos, I kinda wrote them off in favor of playing Tau. That Chaos Lord is about as broke as I ever saw.

Just curious about two things. The first question is a sanity check for myself, the second question is whether you were morally justified in taking another person to value town for a rough and vigorous fleecing.

1. You fought with 2x chainswords and Ghorisvex's Teeth, with just two arms?

2. Since you brought "that" chaos lord, and probably brought "that" list with it. Did your opponent bring his "that" list as well, or were you "clubbing a baby seal without mercy"?

HA! That baby seal has been clubbing me the last 6 months.

The rest of his list was Ravagers, Razorwings and a Void Raven. While the Chaos Lord did something impressive, there was still a lot of game to play.

I would call it karma then