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Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






Literally no one:

GW: let's Nerf the Grey Knights.

Thanks GW.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

I won’t lie when I saw nerfs to them I cringed. I felt so bad for grey knight players as an old 6th edition grand master.
   
Made in dk
Bane Thrall





They nerfed so many things that didnt need nerfing. Their FAQ and Chapter Approved are so full of sh**.
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

To bring them down to a balanced power level like the Guard book.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Seriously feel bad for GK players this edition... anyone who claims WH40k is even a remotely balanced game are full of gak.

GK players now know how it feels to be the odd man out though, I think that is a valuable perspective to have. Now if only Eldar could spend an edition on the bench...

 Eldarain wrote:
To bring them down to a balanced power level like the Guard book.

And the guard were in the GK's place for 7th edition. Guard are hardly the most OP mono-codex this edition either, they are actually good now after being a punching bag since 5th, cry harder.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 06:06:08


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Probably due to the principle behind how a mechanic works. Generally faq and errata have been done to clarify and adhere to specific design principles rather than rebalance.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Probably. Considering they were changing point costs though they could have made some even in plus changes for GK. What if strikes and termintors were 1 point cheaper? But who knows maybe they did it, because just around the corner there is a new GK codex.
   
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Illinois

nareik wrote:
Probably due to the principle behind how a mechanic works. Generally faq and errata have been done to clarify and adhere to specific design principles rather than rebalance.



This. It’s clear they don’t want things to have 2++ saves. They were just caught in the crossfire.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




That can be said about all GK FAQ. baby smite, because of other armies. deep strike because of BA, vehicles because of gulliman, etc
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




We all know GK was waiting, waiting to destroy all. GW had to hold them down before we all regret not nerfing them. Thank you GW, your foresight is beyond reproach.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Smotejob wrote:
Literally no one:

GW: let's Nerf the Grey Knights.

Thanks GW.


Because the people that work at GW are still butt hurt at how OP grey knights were, that's the only logical answer there is. I just hope that when we get an update of models etc. we'll be back on top. I;ve already fallen out of love with my Space Wolves because Primaris are not the army I started collecting (I won't stop collecting them but, they are no longer the army they were, I fething hate Primaris) and the only loyalist Astarted armies I collect are them, Custodes and GK's, they better not feth with my GK's. Like if they make some new armour like Primaris and get rid of GK's armour that we've all known and love I'll be so pissed, GK's terminator armour especially. Such a precarious time for a 40k fan these days. GW only care about new players, they don't care about the people that have made them a successful business, they have no loyalty or appreciation for their fanbase, anyway that's my rant over.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 08:10:51


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




You're right but don't fall out of love with the space wolves. I won't primaris up, as long as they have rules and I can run them I will. Will probably do so even after the crap hits the fan. Primaris are the boredom, at least to me.
   
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[DCM]
Wicked Warp Spider





London, UK

A 2++ is bull regardless of the faction. It's a fair nerf to an already weak codex.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






They really werent nerf, they just had a couple rules modified to stay in line with others, like Fly and no 2++

No one wants 2++ units, the only other time there is a 2++ is the Archon and his goes away the 1st fail and cant be re-rolled. 2++ is supposed to be extremely rare.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




A GK player has no CP to be ++2 around turn 3, which in my expiriance is the same time an archon fails his save. Plus the NDK is a big model, can't hide him with some dudes.
One model per army and you have to use stratagems and psychic powers to pull it off, is imo as rare as an archon with a ++2.


Also while the ++2sv NDK GM maybe resilient the rest of his army is full of dudes that die like meq or teq, but cost 20-40pts per model. Now if GK had ++2 GM and let say stormshields on ever dude, then yes it maybe would be good then. Not sure if too good though, as they would still be very high cost models. DW vets cost as much, and we dont see them dominate other armies.


Ah and GK don't have fly. We have a rule that lets us move as if we had it, but non of the escape and still shot stuff. GW thought we would be too OP I guess, if we had that.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






AngryAngel80 wrote:
You're right but don't fall out of love with the space wolves. I won't primaris up, as long as they have rules and I can run them I will. Will probably do so even after the crap hits the fan. Primaris are the boredom, at least to me.


I still collect them and wouldn't sell my army but they are no longer the army that I once collected. I've never sold an army to this day and I collect nearly every main faction and a lot of sub factions. You would only ever regret selling an army done the line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
They really werent nerf, they just had a couple rules modified to stay in line with others, like Fly and no 2++

No one wants 2++ units, the only other time there is a 2++ is the Archon and his goes away the 1st fail and cant be re-rolled. 2++ is supposed to be extremely rare.


Yeah but GK's are bottom of the hierarchy even with 2++. I wouldn't mind them getting rid of the 2++ if they gave us buffs in other areas to actually make us good. So yeah it is a complete nerf.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 10:12:11


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Yea, 2++ gmndk were pretty strong, especially in smaller games. So the nerf is ok, i get that a 2++ is frustrating to play against. The problem is that they didnt give us anything to compensate, zero.
They could at the very least lower the
Cp cost of our 2cp stratagems
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






stormcraft wrote:
Yea, 2++ gmndk were pretty strong, especially in smaller games. So the nerf is ok, i get that a 2++ is frustrating to play against. The problem is that they didnt give us anything to compensate, zero.
They could at the very least lower the
Cp cost of our 2cp stratagems


GK's are an army that needs cheese though, that's the only way we can be competitive now unless they completely change the armies rules. Like Dreadknights in 7th, were OP but they weren't OP in consideration to the whole army, even with cheese it made them sub par. As a GK, Custodes, Deathwatch player you need a few cheese units to make up for the high cost and low model count of elite armies. I mean if you took away Vertus praetors from custodes they would drop in the army ranking like a tonne of bricks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 10:15:16


 
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Karol wrote:
A GK player has no CP to be ++2 around turn 3, which in my expiriance is the same time an archon fails his save. Plus the NDK is a big model, can't hide him with some dudes.
One model per army and you have to use stratagems and psychic powers to pull it off, is imo as rare as an archon with a ++2.


Also while the ++2sv NDK GM maybe resilient the rest of his army is full of dudes that die like meq or teq, but cost 20-40pts per model. Now if GK had ++2 GM and let say stormshields on ever dude, then yes it maybe would be good then. Not sure if too good though, as they would still be very high cost models. DW vets cost as much, and we dont see them dominate other armies.


Ah and GK don't have fly. We have a rule that lets us move as if we had it, but non of the escape and still shot stuff. GW thought we would be too OP I guess, if we had that.


Welcome to the problem of a soup world. Having CP batteries available mean that the model can have that CP available, as such it currently needs to be balanced as if it will have that save available for the whole game.

You can no longer design a faction with a cheesey unit or 2 that are balanced by things like cost of the basic troops in the faction because you can avoid that downside with soup. GK are elite and if soup did not exist each unit could be powerful but the army could have low model count. But if you can cherry pick a few powerful units and stick them in a list with 100 guardsman to hold objectives, screen etc it becomes OP. TO some extent this was the issue with 5th edition GK, they book was powerful, but the inclusion of Cotaez and cheap troops put it over the top as you could spam the more expensive powerful units, and pay nothing for your objective campers/required troops. That was removed in 6th-7th and the codex has never been near those heights again.

From a game balance standpoint (as currently designed) soup kills mono-codex balance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 11:33:07


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





So now we have GK with zero reason to field. Not that they were even competive before...Term cheese and GK don't belong together except maybe "GK are about as far from cheese as our galaxy is from Andromeda"

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Somerdale, NJ, USA

Did I miss something in the April FAQ? What did GW change for GK?

Edit: I see now. =(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 12:07:58


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I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.

On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





If that GMDK is trouble for you what you plan to do when something actually competive comes along your way?

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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tneva82 wrote:
If that GMDK is trouble for you what you plan to do when something actually competive comes along your way?


IT is the 2++ save that is annoying, it doesn't make it unbeatable, but 6th and 7th showed us that people generally don't like dealing with nigh invulnerable units. GK need help but not in the form of 2++ saves
   
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Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






*tin foil hat engaged*

GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"

GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"

GW exec " I see.... squat them then"

GW rules writer "understood sir"

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This is the problem with Cp and not having abilities inbuilt into an army (I've said this from the start). They've just made it harder to balance a game they already had trouble balancing. I mean it can work and I've seen this stuff work in other games but when they half-arse it like this it was doomed to fail. GW seems to put too much value on CPs and seem to price an army with the imagination they'll bring a CP farm in some sort...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 12:35:42


 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 Imateria wrote:
I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.

On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.


I've had quite a few things chew through the 2++. I get that GW wants to get away from such stuff, but it was our only gimmick. Everything else is just subpar.

GK are seriously getting crapped on all edition.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
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 Smotejob wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.

On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.


I've had quite a few things chew through the 2++. I get that GW wants to get away from such stuff, but it was our only gimmick. Everything else is just subpar.

GK are seriously getting crapped on all edition.


I play Orks so a 2++ is something I can only dream of but I really feel if they're going to nerf something that makes something work then they need to substitute it with something else. This is a problem I've always had with GW and their balance (they take away without giving back). Good balancing is about (ironically) balancing the scales... you can't take away a load baring wall from a house and expect it to stand straight without replacing it with something else.
   
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 G00fySmiley wrote:
*tin foil hat engaged*

GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"

GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"

GW exec " I see.... squat them then"

GW rules writer "understood sir"

There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 lolman1c wrote:
This is the problem with Cp and not having abilities inbuilt into an army (I've said this from the start). They've just made it harder to balance a game they already had trouble balancing. I mean it can work and I've seen this stuff work in other games but when they half-arse it like this it was doomed to fail. GW seems to put too much value on CPs and seem to price an army with the imagination they'll bring a CP farm in some sort...

Got to get those Guard sales numbers up somehow.
That said some of the FAQ answer and then changes kind of imply either the rules team arn't exactlly all on the same page, or they don't actually play the rules as they wrote them they play them as the intended them to be played.
   
 
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