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I saw this in a game the other day: Player A: I shoot at those Rangers with my lootas.

Player B: I will use Pathfinders strat on them, you only hit on 6's.

Player A: Oh, I'm not going to shoot at them, I'll shoot at the guardians instead.

Player B: ok.

Later in the game

Player A: I am going to Da Jump here.

Player B: OK ( waits) now I will use Forewarned on them

Player A: Oh, I'm not done placing them ( moves unit out of los)

At what point does a player get committed to an action and not be able to do a take back based on the other players action?

I was actually waiting for the Ork player to say, you didn't tell me you could Forewarn something and shoot at it! But he didn't.

( I actually had a guy start whining about how old Caller of the Slain was not fair because his army's whole strategy was based on infiltration.....)

when player B said he was using strart it was IMHO too late for takebacksies.

Player A is TFG. Once the game state has meaningfully changed (and declaring the use of a stratagem is a change) it's too late to take back an action, especially if the only reason you're doing it is in reaction to your opponent making a counter-play you don't like. That's clearly a case of not liking the outcome of a choice and not just a momentary mistake in naming the intended target.

Well, if the ork player is being a bit dodgey here. Declaring actions then taking them back after he realizes they are a bad idea. But if he then demands that the CP for said command abilities the opponent uses still be spent then he'd be a pretty impressive level of cheating.

Yeah, When he said you use the Strat on the pathfinders, Its done, he HAS to shoot them.

I agree with the above. Once you've declared an action and your opponent declares a counter measure your locked in. Just because you didn't realize that your action has a counter move doesn't mean you get to fish around from target to target until you find one that is easy to kill.

It's normally pretty explicitly stated on the stratagems themselves. However, the usual "herp derp, it's doesn't technically say..." brigade I'm sure will argue against this until the ending of the world.

Most stratagems read "When X is declared against your unit in the shooting phase..." etc. So once it's declared, it's declared.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, When he said you use the Strat on the pathfinders, Its done, he HAS to shoot them.

With the disclaimer that the Eldar player can't rush to declare the stratagem as fast as possible to force a commitment. If the Ork player is in the middle of saying "oops, I mean that unit" the Eldar player can't interrupt with "LOL STRATAGEM YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR MIND" before they can correct the mistake.

 Peregrine wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, When he said you use the Strat on the pathfinders, Its done, he HAS to shoot them.

With the disclaimer that the Eldar player can't rush to declare the stratagem as fast as possible to force a commitment. If the Ork player is in the middle of saying "oops, I mean that unit" the Eldar player can't interrupt with "LOL STRATAGEM YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR MIND" before they can correct the mistake.

agreed.sportsmanship doesn't just refer to sporting events

BrianDavion wrote:
when player B said he was using strart it was IMHO too late for takebacksies.

Yep. Though here locally we generally play less tight especially with obvious brainfarts(like forgetting to declare character with no guns as charge target when it can heroic intervene. It's no brainer obvious decision with no drawback). But in general when you have declared target that's it.

Game is full of fiddly special rules and exceptions and winning with "gotcha" when opponent isn't walking encyclopia isn't fun and hey it's more impressive to win by winning by better tactics rather than remembering every single rule exception of exception inside out in messy ruleset that 40k is. I want game decided by tactics rather than rule gotcha's

Player A is being a tool, but Player B should just give it a beat and declare once actions are definitely done, then insist that A can’t take back actions. It’s not sporting, and there’s no permission for backsies in the rules of the game... it requires sporting consent, and if it’s not a fair request why should it be granted?

Game is full of fiddly special rules and exceptions and winning with "gotcha" when opponent isn't walking encyclopia isn't fun and hey it's more impressive to win by winning by better tactics rather than remembering every single rule exception of exception inside out in messy ruleset that 40k is.

You know that is like saying people should signal the fact that they are just about to perform a move or a throw you don't know how to counter in wrestling or jiu jitsu. Rules are there to be followed, and if you allow take backs, people just get lazy and never learn. They will just assume that they can take back moves or reposition after they did a charge etc Worse thing is that, if they play somewhere else and someone does not let them do the illegal things they do localy, they are suddenly angry and their opponents who play within the set of rules are TFGs.

agreed.sportsmanship doesn't just refer to sporting events

You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw. Limited distrust of an opponent should always be a thing. Also people should not be calling their reaction before someone finishs declaring theirs. A more MtG style type of playing when asking someone if they react to an action is a much better and more clear thing to do. I mean who is in the right when a guy with a unit of havocks targets one of the two IG on an objective, gets cut in mid sentance by the IG player to stop him from targeting the second squad too, and both IG units have 3-4 models in it?

Karol wrote:
You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw.

Examples, please?

Karol wrote:
Also people should not be calling their reaction before someone finishs declaring theirs.

I think you've replied to the wrong thread, because that's not what's being discussed. From the OP,

Player A: I shoot at those Rangers with my lootas.

Player B: I will use Pathfinders strat on them, you only hit on 6's.

Player A: Oh, I'm not going to shoot at them, I'll shoot at the guardians instead.

Player A has clearly stated his intent and only later changed his mind.

Karol wrote:

Game is full of fiddly special rules and exceptions and winning with "gotcha" when opponent isn't walking encyclopia isn't fun and hey it's more impressive to win by winning by better tactics rather than remembering every single rule exception of exception inside out in messy ruleset that 40k is.

You know that is like saying people should signal the fact that they are just about to perform a move or a throw you don't know how to counter in wrestling or jiu jitsu. Rules are there to be followed, and if you allow take backs, people just get lazy and never learn. They will just assume that they can take back moves or reposition after they did a charge etc Worse thing is that, if they play somewhere else and someone does not let them do the illegal things they do localy, they are suddenly angry and their opponents who play within the set of rules are TFGs.

Nobody's advocating for "take backs", in fact everyone in this thread is saying the opposite - once you've committed to an action you have to accept the consequences. The only person being called out as TFG is the one requesting "take backs".

Karol wrote:

agreed.sportsmanship doesn't just refer to sporting events

You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw. Limited distrust of an opponent should always be a thing. Also people should not be calling their reaction before someone finishs declaring theirs. A more MtG style type of playing when asking someone if they react to an action is a much better and more clear thing to do. I mean who is in the right when a guy with a unit of havocks targets one of the two IG on an objective, gets cut in mid sentance by the IG player to stop him from targeting the second squad too, and both IG units have 3-4 models in it?

You read the whole thread, right? It's already been pointed out that jumping in to declare a reaction before the opponent has even finished declaring actions is TFG behaviour. This is usually pretty clear-cut and easy to judge. The problem with 40k is it doesn't have a concept of a "stack" like MtG does, or even a properly defined sequence for declaring actions. So we need to apply some common sense to determine when an action has been declared and when the player is still mulling over their options. Normally waiting a few seconds after a declaration is enough to allow the player to change their mind.

General Hobbs wrote:


I saw this in a game the other day: Player A: I shoot at those Rangers with my lootas.

Player B: I will use Pathfinders strat on them, you only hit on 6's.

Player A: Oh, I'm not going to shoot at them, I'll shoot at the guardians instead.

Player B: ok.

Later in the game

Player A: I am going to Da Jump here.

Player B: OK ( waits) now I will use Forewarned on them

Player A: Oh, I'm not done placing them ( moves unit out of los)

At what point does a player get committed to an action and not be able to do a take back based on the other players action?

I was actually waiting for the Ork player to say, you didn't tell me you could Forewarn something and shoot at it! But he didn't.

( I actually had a guy start whining about how old Caller of the Slain was not fair because his army's whole strategy was based on infiltration.....)

Actually, in a friendly game, this is fine. There are tons of stratagems out there, and remembering them all is a daunting task. If there is a gentlemen agreement to play by intent, I'd just inform walking into a stratagem he might not know about before he does anything.

In a competitive setting, I'd say no to both. Declaring to shoot something is final, and you can't just test whether your opponent would pull the stratagem or not and then go back on what you did in case you do not get the desired result.
Same for the anti-deepstrike stratagems. Once he stops moving models about, you should confirm whether the player is done, and then activate the stratagem. No moving models afterwards.

Then there is the issue of playing pick-up games with people you do not know. Player B might just have wanted to not have any game store drama and thus just let it slip because nothing was on the line.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Karol wrote:
You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw.

Examples, please?

I'm curious about this too. The handshake/glove tap/bow usually takes place before the match begins. Hitting your opponent outside of the match/round will be instant disqualification.

 Jidmah wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


I saw this in a game the other day: Player A: I shoot at those Rangers with my lootas.

Player B: I will use Pathfinders strat on them, you only hit on 6's.

Player A: Oh, I'm not going to shoot at them, I'll shoot at the guardians instead.

Player B: ok.

Later in the game

Player A: I am going to Da Jump here.

Player B: OK ( waits) now I will use Forewarned on them

Player A: Oh, I'm not done placing them ( moves unit out of los)

At what point does a player get committed to an action and not be able to do a take back based on the other players action?

I was actually waiting for the Ork player to say, you didn't tell me you could Forewarn something and shoot at it! But he didn't.

( I actually had a guy start whining about how old Caller of the Slain was not fair because his army's whole strategy was based on infiltration.....)

Actually, in a friendly game, this is fine. There are tons of stratagems out there, and remembering them all is a daunting task. If there is a gentlemen agreement to play by intent, I'd just inform walking into a stratagem he might not know about before he does anything.

In a competitive setting, I'd say no to both. Declaring to shoot something is final, and you can't just test whether your opponent would pull the stratagem or not and then go back on what you did in case you do not get the desired result.
Same for the anti-deepstrike stratagems. Once he stops moving models about, you should confirm whether the player is done, and then activate the stratagem. No moving models afterwards.

Then there is the issue of playing pick-up games with people you do not know. Player B might just have wanted to not have any game store drama and thus just let it slip because nothing was on the line.

In a friendly game that is not fine. You can't just change your mind about what you're doing because it's not going to work as well as you thought.

Yes, if this isn't a tourney game, then theres really no issue, since player B failed to mention what could happen beforehand.

You cant expect casual games to be on point all the time.


I would, as player A, expect my opponent to mention things like forwarned or - to hit strats he can play, when I express my intent to do things in a casual setting.



If however, you are playing in a tournament, then as player B you are not expected to mention all your rules to your opponent.

Its up to him to ask you about things you can do before he declares intent in a tourney setting.

To be honest, I would expect any action I take during a game to have a potential counter, be it a stratagem or a unit ability. If I were playing someone inexperienced, I might mention at the beginning of the game "by the way, I have access to these stratagems, that could interrupt your actions in these circumstances", but expecting a take-back just because I've countered you isn't on IMO. You need to plan for unforeseen upsets like that; it's no different to taking the shot and simply missing, after all, and that happens to me all the time.

As someone who plays MtG on a more regular basis than 40k, I've learned to always ask my opponent if they're responding to a certain move and expect the same in return. If people didn't commit to a line of play and the spell for instance gets countered, you can't just take it back because you've gained hand information in MtG which changes the outcome of the game.

The same applies to 40k games and stratagems, if you take back a move after declaring an action and your opponent reveals a stratagem they were going to use then you've gained "secret" information and then you can play to that because of knowing CP costs etc.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
To be honest, I would expect any action I take during a game to have a potential counter, be it a stratagem or a unit ability. If I were playing someone inexperienced, I might mention at the beginning of the game "by the way, I have access to these stratagems, that could interrupt your actions in these circumstances", but expecting a take-back just because I've countered you isn't on IMO. You need to plan for unforeseen upsets like that; it's no different to taking the shot and simply missing, after all, and that happens to me all the time.

Then again...do you want 30minute pre-game session every time to go over all the potential combos opponents army can have?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Karol wrote:
You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw.

Examples, please?

I'm curious about this too. The handshake/glove tap/bow takes place before the match begins. Hitting your opponent outside of the match/round will be instant disqualification.

Happened to me at my very first youngling event, but I have seen it done by other people too. The greet, under our rule, can be a head nod or a hand shake.
So I am pited against a guy around my age, but from a sports school in Belarus. He nods at me when we enter the mat. I nod back. We take position, he relaxs, am focused so don't see what the judge is doing, if he is relaxed too then the match hasn't started yet. My opponent strachs out his hand to me, which looks like a hand shake, I do the same, he grabs me by the for arm, rams his body in to me and performs a throw. Only thing that saved me from instant losing was the fact that he didn't manage to pin me down, after it. My trainer did give us the this is sports, not training talk after it. People do everything they can get away with to win. Some can do more, some can do less, In some classes no one cares if some stretchs the rules are bend a bit. It only becomes a problem when TV are there or sponsors or beting is involved. If people bet stuff gets very serious, and then it is better to stick to regulations, but even then good luck to anyone who suddenly wins against someone who was planed to go to olympics or euro/world champinships.


the rest is mostly local stuff. Like we don't shake hands when people from ukrain that have Bandera or UPA as their patron. The figths with them also tend to be high on warnings too. But then again I remember olympics where egyptian judoka didnt shake hands with his Israeli opponent. So it aint that uncommon.

tneva82 wrote:Then again...do you want 30minute pre-game session every time to go over all the potential combos opponents army can have?

Tyranid Horde wrote:The same applies to 40k games and stratagems, if you take back a move after declaring an action and your opponent reveals a stratagem they were going to use then you've gained "secret" information and then you can play to that because of knowing CP costs etc.

To take these two points together, a good habit to get into IMHO is asking your opponent if they have any stratagems or unit abilities that could interfere with an action you might take before committing to it -- "is there anything that could make it harder to shoot at unit X?" for example. It's not secret information because anyone can read a faction's codex and see what abilities/stratagems they have available to them.

Karol wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Karol wrote:
You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw.

Examples, please?

I'm curious about this too. The handshake/glove tap/bow takes place before the match begins. Hitting your opponent outside of the match/round will be instant disqualification.

Happened to me at my very first youngling event, but I have seen it done by other people too. The greet, under our rule, can be a head nod or a hand shake.
So I am pited against a guy around my age, but from a sports school in Belarus. He nods at me when we enter the mat. I nod back. We take position, he relaxs, am focused so don't see what the judge is doing, if he is relaxed too then the match hasn't started yet. My opponent strachs out his hand to me, which looks like a hand shake, I do the same, he grabs me by the for arm, rams his body in to me and performs a throw. Only thing that saved me from instant losing was the fact that he didn't manage to pin me down, after it. My trainer did give us the this is sports, not training talk after it. People do everything they can get away with to win. Some can do more, some can do less, In some classes no one cares if some stretchs the rules are bend a bit. It only becomes a problem when TV are there or sponsors or beting is involved. If people bet stuff gets very serious, and then it is better to stick to regulations, but even then good luck to anyone who suddenly wins against someone who was planed to go to olympics or euro/world champinships.

Yes, that totally happened.

Because in Poland the kayfabe rules of pro wrestling apply to mat wrestling apparently and Karol wrestled a reincarnated Eddie Guerrero...

That's good advice. I do query stratagems before deployment because the last thing I want is a melee army in my face on turn 1.

In general though, like all board games, once you make a move and your opponent responds you can't then change your mind. It's important to make sure that your opponent is ready for you to respond though.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Karol wrote:
You would be suprised how many events were won by people who did not think that a hand shake before a bout is a thing, and just used it for leverged throw.

Examples, please?

I'm curious about this too. The handshake/glove tap/bow takes place before the match begins. Hitting your opponent outside of the match/round will be instant disqualification.

This is way off topic, but I remember Colton Smith in The Ultimate Fighter. It's normal for MMA fighters to touch gloves with each other in the opening seconds of a round. Smith offered his glove as the bout started, when his opponent put his up, Smith shot in for a takedown. That went down like a gak in a lift with the other fighters as you can imagine.

The story in the op seems to be a WAAC player vs a casual player. I'd only allow that take back to happen once unless I knew to expect it.

It can happen in a few other situations though like a newbie vs a veteran player. In this situation I think it is the veteran players job to point out a bad tactical decision that might be due to lack of knowledge or understanding. There is nothing worse than joining a new game and being obliterated because your opponent won't offer advice, infact I would say this is the equivalent of a WAAC player.

The other situation is simply forgetting. Personally if I made a bad move due to a brainfart I would just accept it, but I'd be willing to let my opponent change a move if they wanted. I don't think I would allow more than one though and I would express that.

In a more competitive situation I would say as soon as the first model is moved or the dice start rolling the action is done. For shooting I might even say once the player declares it it is done.

 nurgle5 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:Then again...do you want 30minute pre-game session every time to go over all the potential combos opponents army can have?

Tyranid Horde wrote:The same applies to 40k games and stratagems, if you take back a move after declaring an action and your opponent reveals a stratagem they were going to use then you've gained "secret" information and then you can play to that because of knowing CP costs etc.

To take these two points together, a good habit to get into IMHO is asking your opponent if they have any stratagems or unit abilities that could interfere with an action you might take before committing to it -- "is there anything that could make it harder to shoot at unit X?" for example. It's not secret information because anyone can read a faction's codex and see what abilities/stratagems they have available to them.

You've misunderstood what I meant by secret information. Everyone has access to an army list and the stratagems available to that army (or decklist) but where in MtG you may not know what is in your opponent's hand, you won't know what stratagems an opponent may use until they use them. Yes you can make educated guesses or straight up know a combo but it's still information your opponent will not tell you until the situation arises. That's the whole point of counter-play. If you knew exactly what was going to happen you won't make that play because it would negatively impact you. Hence my statement that if you take back an action and your opponent has reacted to it then you know one of their lines of play.

Also your opponent doesn't have to tell you what might happen, you should be rehearsed in a standard army list for whatever faction you're playing so you don't play into someone's advantage.

tneva82 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
To be honest, I would expect any action I take during a game to have a potential counter, be it a stratagem or a unit ability. If I were playing someone inexperienced, I might mention at the beginning of the game "by the way, I have access to these stratagems, that could interrupt your actions in these circumstances", but expecting a take-back just because I've countered you isn't on IMO. You need to plan for unforeseen upsets like that; it's no different to taking the shot and simply missing, after all, and that happens to me all the time.

Then again...do you want 30minute pre-game session every time to go over all the potential combos opponents army can have?

If im playing against an inexperiened player, i will usually know what their army does and if my army has a big counter for it. Best example is this : i was in a friendly tournament in my LGS and i was palying admech against Dark angels with many deathwing knights. I told him before the game that i had an auspex scan equivalent in my army. When he deepstruck (deepstriked?) his deathwing later on and forgot about the stratagem, i used it on him and even he said taht it was fair since he had been warned before the game.

You dont need to enumerate all of your armie's weapons/abilities before the game, just make a quick note of whatever counters you army offers to his strategy. Of course this only applies with newer player, in a game against an experienced player, he should know that auspex scan is a thing

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes, if this isn't a tourney game, then theres really no issue, since player B failed to mention what could happen beforehand.

You cant expect casual games to be on point all the time.


I would, as player A, expect my opponent to mention things like forwarned or - to hit strats he can play, when I express my intent to do things in a casual setting.



If however, you are playing in a tournament, then as player B you are not expected to mention all your rules to your opponent.

Its up to him to ask you about things you can do before he declares intent in a tourney setting.

Sorry, but even in friendly matches in a casual setting, I'm not telling you my plan.

Feel free to ask questions, but they have to be specific. "Do you have anything that can further modify my chance to hit your units? Do you have anything that can intercept deep strike or deep strike analogs?" I don't really accept "What are you going to do if I make this move?"

I'm here to play a game where one player controls one army, not here to walk you through winning with yours.