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Im looking to put Heavy weapons in my Salamander Tac squads to take advantage of the Sally Trait. What is the best option to go with ? i am considering MLs because the 2 types of fire mode.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 13:32:37
It's really a crap shoot. You want the missiles vs Xenos who lack much T8 and pack invulns that waste the -3 AP. Frags are useful in ITC vs engineers and vs tau drones imo. You want lascannons vs imperials.
Martel732 wrote: It's really a crap shoot. You want the missiles vs Xenos who lack much T8 and pack invulns that waste the -3 AP. Frags are useful in ITC vs engineers and vs tau drones imo. You want lascannons vs imperials.
This. It's basically a 50/50 depending on your most common opponent. Personally, I think the difference in points brings the edge just slightly to the ML, so if I had to pick, I'd go with that. The Frag mode looks nice on paper and has some VERY niche uses, but in general you're better off using the Krak mode 99% of the time. The d6 shots and lack of AP just make it a very unreliable weapon mode. It would be much better if it were d3+2 shots, or str5, or like the Eldar ML, had AP-1. But no, it's basically a bolter that MIGHT get extra shots, but has a 1-in-6 chance to get LESS shots, because even a Bolter gets 2 shots when stationary or at 12".
Another reason I'd go with the ML over the LC, is specifically because you are taking Salamanders. Even against T8 targets, you get a reroll to wound, so it makes the ML fairly appealing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 14:03:24
Marines generally have enough S4 firepower that a ML doesn't add much. Taking a Lascannon however, gives you that S9 sweet-spot where you're wounding T8 (Leman Russ/Land Raiders/Knights) on 3+. The extra bit of Ap helps as well.
That being said, I wouldn't say ML's are useless under all circumstances; Lascannons are generally better, but MLs have their own uses such as Flakk Missiles.
Valkyrie wrote: Marines generally have enough S4 firepower that a ML doesn't add much. Taking a Lascannon however, gives you that S9 sweet-spot where you're wounding T8 (Leman Russ/Land Raiders/Knights) on 3+. The extra bit of Ap helps as well.
That being said, I wouldn't say ML's are useless under all circumstances; Lascannons are generally better, but MLs have their own uses such as Flakk Missiles.
You frequently can't reach the drones. With your bolters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valkyrie wrote: Marines generally have enough S4 firepower that a ML doesn't add much. Taking a Lascannon however, gives you that S9 sweet-spot where you're wounding T8 (Leman Russ/Land Raiders/Knights) on 3+. The extra bit of Ap helps as well.
That being said, I wouldn't say ML's are useless under all circumstances; Lascannons are generally better, but MLs have their own uses such as Flakk Missiles.
Lascannons are better vs imperials. Not everyone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 14:38:04
zedsdead wrote: Im looking to put Heavy weapons in my Salamander Tac squads to take advantage of the Sally Trait. What is the best option to go with ? i am considering MLs because the 2 types of fire mode.
I use primarily missile launchers because the dual fire mode is quite nice. The S4 D6 shot mode has been beneficial to me in more than one occasion, while the Krak missile mode and flakk missile mode have saved my butt a ton of times in recent games. It's a great weapon when supported with an LT and Captain for rerolls + Auspex. In my experience, the meta of your environment matters though. Lascannons are useless where I play because 99% of my meta is made of footslogging "x" almost no vehicles and zero knights are ever seen on my local tables. Obviously, if you're seeing knights + tanks and such, you might want to consider the LC. Don't forget the Heavy Bolters though, they're quite good and great for adding that extra umph to your squad. Plasma cannons are also an undersung hero this edition, and I am very confused as to why you don't see more of them on the table top.
zedsdead wrote: Im looking to put Heavy weapons in my Salamander Tac squads to take advantage of the Sally Trait. What is the best option to go with ? i am considering MLs because the 2 types of fire mode.
I use primarily missile launchers because the dual fire mode is quite nice. The S4 D6 shot mode has been beneficial to me in more than one occasion, while the Krak missile mode and flakk missile mode have saved my butt a ton of times in recent games. It's a great weapon when supported with an LT and Captain for rerolls + Auspex. In my experience, the meta of your environment matters though. Lascannons are useless where I play because 99% of my meta is made of footslogging "x" almost no vehicles and zero knights are ever seen on my local tables. Obviously, if you're seeing knights + tanks and such, you might want to consider the LC. Don't forget the Heavy Bolters though, they're quite good and great for adding that extra umph to your squad. Plasma cannons are also an undersung hero this edition, and I am very confused as to why you don't see more of them on the table top.
The Salamanders to-wound reroll makes the upgrade from lascannon to ML less necessary; you might still want lascannons for the extra AP if you see a lot of 2+-armour vehicles.
Plasma cannons are fine unless you're running up against people with to-hit penalties; if you can't use the overcharge mode because you're staring down things like Alaitoc Hornets (-3 to hit, overheat on 4 or less) it's not a very useful weapon. If your meta doesn't have a lot of to-hit penalties it is worth considering, though.
I usually run my Salamander lists with one las tac squad and 1 missile tac squad. It gives me the ability to use the flakk strat, and I have freedom to choose optimal targets for each squad.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Go real Salamander and heavy flamers/Meltas across the board? Sorry, flufflord at heart.
I really wish I could make use of my multi-melta models, but most of the time my tac squads are holding down objectives, I can't justify the price cost for the 24" threat range. I do enjoy throwing in a Heavy Flamer into my Sternguards with Vulkan in a Stormraven/Land Raider for some toasty fun.
zedsdead wrote: Im looking to put Heavy weapons in my Salamander Tac squads to take advantage of the Sally Trait. What is the best option to go with ? i am considering MLs because the 2 types of fire mode.
I use primarily missile launchers because the dual fire mode is quite nice. The S4 D6 shot mode has been beneficial to me in more than one occasion, while the Krak missile mode and flakk missile mode have saved my butt a ton of times in recent games. It's a great weapon when supported with an LT and Captain for rerolls + Auspex. In my experience, the meta of your environment matters though. Lascannons are useless where I play because 99% of my meta is made of footslogging "x" almost no vehicles and zero knights are ever seen on my local tables. Obviously, if you're seeing knights + tanks and such, you might want to consider the LC. Don't forget the Heavy Bolters though, they're quite good and great for adding that extra umph to your squad. Plasma cannons are also an undersung hero this edition, and I am very confused as to why you don't see more of them on the table top.
The Salamanders to-wound reroll makes the upgrade from lascannon to ML less necessary; you might still want lascannons for the extra AP if you see a lot of 2+-armour vehicles.
Plasma cannons are fine unless you're running up against people with to-hit penalties; if you can't use the overcharge mode because you're staring down things like Alaitoc Hornets (-3 to hit, overheat on 4 or less) it's not a very useful weapon. If your meta doesn't have a lot of to-hit penalties it is worth considering, though.
It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Why GW hasn't made the same jump...
Oh, it's because they don't actually hire people with rules writing experience. Never mind.
There is no reason for eldar holograms to make your dangerous gun more prone to misfire. It's just bad design.
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Why GW hasn't made the same jump...
Oh, it's because they don't actually hire people with rules writing experience. Never mind.
There is no reason for eldar holograms to make your dangerous gun more prone to misfire. It's just bad design.
The in-game lore/logic I have heard is that because they are harder to hit the super charged plasma guy is firing more shots to try and hit them thus over heating the gun and boom
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Why GW hasn't made the same jump...
Oh, it's because they don't actually hire people with rules writing experience. Never mind.
There is no reason for eldar holograms to make your dangerous gun more prone to misfire. It's just bad design.
The in-game lore/logic I have heard is that because they are harder to hit the super charged plasma guy is firing more shots to try and hit them thus over heating the gun and boom
Or, if you've played the Space Marine video game, "holding" the super charge for longer because you can't get a good aim is a fine explanation too.
But we can "fluff" away just about anything with enough imagination. The only REAL reason Plasma overheats on a 1, regardless of it being "natural" is probably due to balance.
I'm sure the GW designers have either thought of, or seen referenced, the idea of it only slaying the model on a natural 1. but then realized that the cost would probably need to go up on all Plasma weapons, which currently need to anyway (or at least swap the points between Plasma guns and Melta guns)
Back OT, the fact that there are roughly equal advocates in this thread for either ML or LC, should tell you something about the comparisons between them. Basically, choose your preference.
True it's down to choice. For me my biggest factor is to look at the unit it's coming on. And for me on a tac marine, the las canon is to much but that's me do what you think is best
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Why GW hasn't made the same jump...
Oh, it's because they don't actually hire people with rules writing experience. Never mind.
There is no reason for eldar holograms to make your dangerous gun more prone to misfire. It's just bad design.
The in-game lore/logic I have heard is that because they are harder to hit the super charged plasma guy is firing more shots to try and hit them thus over heating the gun and boom
Or, if you've played the Space Marine video game, "holding" the super charge for longer because you can't get a good aim is a fine explanation too.
But we can "fluff" away just about anything with enough imagination. The only REAL reason Plasma overheats on a 1, regardless of it being "natural" is probably due to balance.
I'm sure the GW designers have either thought of, or seen referenced, the idea of it only slaying the model on a natural 1. but then realized that the cost would probably need to go up on all Plasma weapons, which currently need to anyway (or at least swap the points between Plasma guns and Melta guns)
Back OT, the fact that there are roughly equal advocates in this thread for either ML or LC, should tell you something about the comparisons between them. Basically, choose your preference.
Plasma is already unbalanced due to its cost. Seems to me the overheat rule is just a relic that could go away like AV and vehicle facings. Wouldn't hurt the game at all as long as the points were right.
Togusa wrote: ...It depends, my local play group house ruled that plasma only explodes on a natural die roll of a 1.
So there's your answer. Other people don't use plasma cannons as much as you do because they aren't playing with houserules that take out one of the big downsides.
Why GW hasn't made the same jump...
Oh, it's because they don't actually hire people with rules writing experience. Never mind.
There is no reason for eldar holograms to make your dangerous gun more prone to misfire. It's just bad design.
The in-game lore/logic I have heard is that because they are harder to hit the super charged plasma guy is firing more shots to try and hit them thus over heating the gun and boom
Or, if you've played the Space Marine video game, "holding" the super charge for longer because you can't get a good aim is a fine explanation too.
But we can "fluff" away just about anything with enough imagination. The only REAL reason Plasma overheats on a 1, regardless of it being "natural" is probably due to balance.
I'm sure the GW designers have either thought of, or seen referenced, the idea of it only slaying the model on a natural 1. but then realized that the cost would probably need to go up on all Plasma weapons, which currently need to anyway (or at least swap the points between Plasma guns and Melta guns)
Back OT, the fact that there are roughly equal advocates in this thread for either ML or LC, should tell you something about the comparisons between them. Basically, choose your preference.
Plasma is already unbalanced due to its cost. Seems to me the overheat rule is just a relic that could go away like AV and vehicle facings. Wouldn't hurt the game at all as long as the points were right.
It doesn't need to. But it does. If you play outside your group, plasma cannons get a lot weaker.
Martel732 wrote: It's really a crap shoot. You want the missiles vs Xenos who lack much T8 and pack invulns that waste the -3 AP. Frags are useful in ITC vs engineers and vs tau drones imo. You want lascannons vs imperials.
Plasma will always be better than melta because of more shots. Flamers have no damage yield. Grav is awful in comparison as a direct competitor. And this is with the current overheat rules.
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