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How do?

Nice and straight forward this time.

Who do you consider the best and most compelling character in Star Trek?

My vote goes to Elim Garak.

He’s the unknown quantity. A Being apparently incapable of telling his friends the truth, yet so pragmatic it hurts.

He nearly, kind of, single handedly changes the face of the Dominion War - but only by following Sisko’s direct order. And when Sisko has an issue with Garak’s amoral (not immoral, massive difference) stance? Garak puts him in his place.

Yes, that lie (In The Pale Moonlight is the episode. Possibly Trek’s absolute best*) cost lives. But how many lives did that lie save? At what point does the cost of defending a quarter of the galaxy become too much? Especially against a foe as outright awful as The Dominion?

As you may have noticed, I’m more than somewhat left leaning in my political views. But for pure fantasy and third party viewing, Garak’s actions, whilst never ever altruistic do make a certain amount of sense.

In one episode, he might be a butthole. In the next, benign. Episode after that, benevolent. And it’s that exact unpredictable nature (wonderfully realised) that makes Garak work.

But who gets your vote? And, importantly, why?

Neelix.

It might annoy a certain, long term dakka member, but I like him, and you get a laugh with him, and he annoys the hell out of Tuvok.

But in all honesty, it's hard to pick one. Gul Dukat is an excellent villain, 100% 3-d, developed, rounded, you name it. A great character, even though he's evil.

Garek is good as well. Totally ambigious for most of the show, but comes good at the end.

Spock needs no explanation, Kirk is Kirk, and Chekhov is funny. noo-clear wessels

Most of them are good. I like most of them.

Your first comment?

Do you reckon you can outrun a flame thrower? :p

But, as someone who really doesn’t enjoy TOS, can you throw us a narrative bone?

Not to justify, just to illustrate.

The first three captains I think stand out for how meme worthy they all are, though Kirk and Picard I think have much bigger cultural legacies than Sisko.

In terms of my favorites though, Data, Miles O'Brien, Garek, and Worf I think all stand out as characters I enjoyed the most in the franchise. Really DS9s entire cast probably deserves notice because I don't think any other crew in the franchise had as much going on as they did. The TNG crew could at times be stilted, and the TOS crew was mostly Kirk, Spock, and Bones with the rest just filling in when appropriate. DS9 had every crew member fleshed out to deeply, and they all had distinct and interesting interactions with one another through the series.

 LordofHats wrote:
The first three captains I think stand out for how meme worthy they all are, though Kirk and Picard I think have much bigger cultural legacies than Sisko.

In terms of my favorites though, Data, Miles O'Brien, Garek, and Worf I think all stand out as characters I enjoyed the most in the franchise. Really DS9s entire cast probably deserves notice because I don't think any other crew in the franchise had as much going on as they did. The TNG crew could at times be stilted, and the TOS crew was mostly Kirk, Spock, and Bones with the rest just filling in when appropriate. DS9 had every crew member fleshed out to deeply, and they all had distinct and interesting interactions with one another through the series.

Of course DS9 had fleshed out characters. They stole them from Babylon 5

I jest. I like them both.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Your first comment?

Do you reckon you can outrun a flame thrower? :p

But, as someone who really doesn’t enjoy TOS, can you throw us a narrative bone?

Not to justify, just to illustrate.

Plenty of classic clips on youtube, including the DS9 TOS cross-over

odo, quark, garak and gul dukat

Greatest Characters?

Odo, Garak, Kira, Martok, Bones, Scotty, Spock, Ro, Jadzia, Picard and Sisko

Morn. One of the best characters on DS9.

Honestly I think that DS9 outdid itself for managing to flesh out so many of their cast in such an in-depth manner. Being free from the "alien of the week" mechanic and instead more times than not it was "character of the week (and often characters)". This way we saw characters a bit more than just within their element.

You see Scotty in the Original series and he's Scotty and he's in the engine room or on the bridge crying that the engines can't take it etc.... Basically of most of the crew we see one dimension. TNG experimented taking it further, but often didn't branch too far from their core bridge crew; and again most are seen within their roles.

DS9 throws us into all kinds of situations - we don't just see Quark the Barkeeper- we see him at home on his world; on away missions; dealing with huge social changes that his people are going through etc.... And its the same for many other characters.



I think DS9 honestly spoilt us and whilst characters like Picard and Kirk dominate their respective series into the extreme to stand tall and proud; I think DS9 just shines a bit brighter for having no real "strongest" and instead having the strongest overall core.












And after all that my vote goes to Picard - mostly because I'm a fan of Patrick Stewart and his acting and style on the screen. So I'm going to bias my view by that and go with him because, as I've sort of rambled above, I really can't honestly pick out a "best" from the angle of the characters themselves.


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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Morn. One of the best characters on DS9.

He got some of the best lines!

Garak is a great choice overall.

Nelix is the guy you'd like to have as a neighbor. Good hearted, but not in a Ned Flanders kind of way.

Guy you'd want to hang out with on the weekends? Will Riker. That man just oozes coolness.

General drinking buddy: Only Scotty would do.

Garak is far and away my favourite character. Probably the character I miss the most from any Trek, and maybe TV series. I’m a pragmatic person, myself, and I’d absolutely consider the saving of the Alpha Quadrant “a bargain” at the price.

If we are talking best written bad guy ever written on TV, got to be Gul dukat for me, no other movie or series has produced such an evil and relatable character all in one, you get why he does what he does and they even trick you into feeling sorry for him for a little while.... Second place is Tony soprano.

Garak and Quark are definitely scene stealers. Who can forget Garak's take on the Boy Who Cried Wolf?

 Formosa wrote:
If we are talking best written bad guy ever written on TV, got to be Gul dukat for me, no other movie or series has produced such an evil and relatable character all in one, you get why he does what he does and they even trick you into feeling sorry for him for a little while.... Second place is Tony soprano.

Better yet, they tricked people into feeling sorry for him so well that people started thinking he was just a misunderstood hero. They started thinking it so much the writers went out of their way to show "no he's not a misunderstood hero, he's just an evil monster convinced he's not so bad" and people still look back on the guy and feel like he got a raw deal.

The actor deserves a lot of credit for it imo. Marc Alaimo completely sold the character and dominated most of the scenes he appeared in... Except for maybe the last season. Once Dukat went full Pah-Wraith, I felt like Alaimo wasn't so into the character anymore and Dukat started feeling more wooden as a result but that was easily one of the weakest parts of the series as it wrapped itself up.

Agreed hats

I am curious about what others think of Data. I don't see anyone else mentioning him as a favorite and am curious. I feel like he was the only TNG character with an actual arc to him, lessons he learned that actually affected how he behaved in later episodes. In some ways I feel like he was a precusor to the kind of character writing that would become DS9's staple in a show that otherwise stuck to it's "crisis of the week and reset" formate for most of its run.

Well, the only character other than Wesley... but we don't talk about Wesley. Even if Wheaton kind of became a cool dude later in life.

Miles O'Brien.
In these shows full of galaxy-changing events, alien energy-beings, superpowerful pranksters and human-bee cyborgs and interstellar crises, he's just a guy doing his job.

Worf only started getting interesting once he got off the Enterprise. While Security Chief of the Enterprise his main function was getting pimp-slapped by the alien threat of the week to show how tough they are.

I suppose, when you say 'greatest'... just what do you mean by that?

For pop-culture impact, you've got to go with the classic trifecta of Kirk/Spock/Bones.

For the impact on society and the future of TV, you'd have a hard time beating Nyota Uhura. A black woman in a position of no small authority in a show in the 1960s... and it's never once brought up as exceptional or special. For the 1960s that's absolutely unheard of. The closest modern equivalent would be a transgendered person, but even that's not as big a deal now as a black female character who even manages to outrank some of the other main characters was then. (Uhura was a 2nd Lieutenant, later promoted to 1st Lieutenant in the series; Checkov and Sulu were both Ensigns, later promoted to 2nd Lieutenants.) The character was so influential for the time that MLK Jr. himself contacted Nichelle Nichols and begged her to stick with the role.

To be fair, though, none of those were particularly well-written roles by modern standards...

Best acted? In Next Gen Patrick Stewart takes that one hands down. TOS? None of them were particularly well acted (the less said about Shatner the better), so I'll give it to Nimoy for keeping a straight face. DS9? Too many possibilities as so many actors do very good jobs with their roles to pin down one best. The later series... I rather lost interest in so I can't really judge.

DS9 also runs away with best overall characters, as they all were generally quite well written on top of being well acted.

Nailing down one absolute best at all of these? Impossible.

 LordofHats wrote:
I am curious about what others think of Data. I don't see anyone else mentioning him as a favorite and am curious. I feel like he was the only TNG character with an actual arc to him, lessons he learned that actually affected how he behaved in later episodes. In some ways I feel like he was a precusor to the kind of character writing that would become DS9's staple in a show that otherwise stuck to it's "crisis of the week and reset" formate for most of its run.

I agree fully, The Measure of a Man is one of my favourite episodes of any show and the continuing building of his arc through the episodes with Lore as well as his personal interactions with various others (his girlfriend and the little girl with the radio for ex.) was very well done, though I didn't particularly like Nemesis.

Alexander! Do not draw on the bulkheads with your crayons.
It is not the mark of a true warrior.

Actually, Barclay was kind of an interesting character. With our modern addictions to phones/internet, it's actually harder to believe that any facility that had a holodeck wouldn't have scads of addicts---and all that that implies.

 Vulcan wrote:


For the impact on society and the future of TV, you'd have a hard time beating Nyota Uhura. A black woman in a position of no small authority in a show in the 1960s... and it's never once brought up as exceptional or special. For the 1960s that's absolutely unheard of. The closest modern equivalent would be a transgendered person, but even that's not as big a deal now as a black female character who even manages to outrank some of the other main characters was then. (Uhura was a 2nd Lieutenant, later promoted to 1st Lieutenant in the series; Checkov and Sulu were both Ensigns, later promoted to 2nd Lieutenants.) The character was so influential for the time that MLK Jr. himself contacted Nichelle Nichols and begged her to stick with the role.

To be fair, though, none of those were particularly well-written roles by modern standards...

adding to this, the kiss between she and Kirk was the first televised interracial kiss.

I liked Data, but he often felt like the naive little kid needing to be schooled by wise old Picard.

DS9 had the best characters overall, as seems to be consistently mentioned already. As much as I love characters like Worf, a lot of the characters in TOS and TNG basically end up being tropes, whereas the DS9 cast had deeply explored characters, much like the oft-compared (and truly excellent) Babylon 5.

 Formosa wrote:
If we are talking best written bad guy ever written on TV, got to be Gul dukat for me, no other movie or series has produced such an evil and relatable character all in one, you get why he does what he does and they even trick you into feeling sorry for him for a little while...

To be honest, given the way the Bajorans ended up getting portrayed, by the end of the show I started to feel that Gul Dukat did nothing wrong

I'm joking, but only half so. The Bajorans were supposed to be a deep and spiritual people with a rich history oppressed by evil overlords looking to a bright new future, but in practice far too often end up basically as bad or worse than everyone else, just weaker. They're willing to descend into medieval barbarism at the drop of a hat when an old Prophet shows up, they actively frustrate and fight against those attempting to help them (either personally or their society) in multiple instances over the course of the show, their internal politics are ruthless, they're easily misled by demagogues, they basically have to be dragged kicking and screaming to their own salvation over and over, and all too often end up getting portrayed as backward and stubborn and inept, with dark skeletons in seemingly everyone's closet. I think a lot of that wasn't necessarily intentional but rather was intended as plot devices for specific episodes, but over the course of the entire show it becomes increasingly hard sympathize for them much of the time.

No mention of The Doctor?
Really Dakka? Not even honorable mentions
For SHAME

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No mention of The Doctor?
Really Dakka? Not even honorable mentions
For SHAME

I do feel kind of ashamed. Voyager was a mess when it comes to characters, with inconsistent characterization and bad writing. Picardo's acting though completely sold the character he played and made a barely mediocre series passable.

Always loved Geordi LaForge myself, Levar was actually a really good actor when you consider a lot of human emotion is captured in the eyes and he had a friggin visor.
Played a humble, likeable, humane character and had a great and sometimes humourous relationship with Data.

He also had some of the best pure sci fi episodes which made TNG the best of the Treks.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Miles O'Brien.
In these shows full of galaxy-changing events, alien energy-beings, superpowerful pranksters and human-bee cyborgs and interstellar crises, he's just a guy doing his job.

That was one thing I really liked about him, he was the humble worker. There's even a great episode of DS9 that follows him through a day of challenges and he's still the same casual calm humble engineer who goes home to his family.



Also I think a lot of people like Garrak because unlike most of the cast of the Trek series he still ends DS9 as a mystery. Whilst we learn a lot about him we are never sure if what we learn is the truth or part of the truth or a lie and how much is left unsaid. It makes him very easy to talk and debate about. Guinan was a very similar character, but I feel that whilst she started her role quite strong in the mysterious aspect it sort of got left to one side and ignored after a while. They brought some of her mystery back now and then and into the first film from that era, but still I think she was a missed chance to have a more powerful mystery on the ship. A bit like Vorlon on Babalon 5

Sulu. That was before ST6 showed me the pure awesomeness of Captain Sulu. We sorely need more Captain Sulu in our lives.

 Just Tony wrote:
Sulu. That was before ST6 showed me the pure awesomeness of Captain Sulu. We sorely need more Captain Sulu in our lives.

He would have been great in the role - he's got that same sense of gravity to his acting character that makes for a good lead; much like Patrick Stewart.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No mention of The Doctor?
Really Dakka? Not even honorable mentions
For SHAME

Robert Picardo was also the cowboy in Inner Space.

His place in pop culture history is guaranteed, regardless of any role in Star Trek.

I make love with my boots on


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And another thing: how come nobody has mentioned Weyoun?

Unforgiveable.

As villains go, he's probably even more rounded and 'realistic' than Gul Dukat. Why?

He's the bureaucrat, the Eichmann type. Not malicious or irrational at times like Dukat, but 'rational' and 'logical.' A man who sees billions die because he feels it's a necessary and 'regretful' sacrifice as part of some grand plan that will bring 'peace' and 'order' to the galaxy once the Dominion win.

Apologies for Godwin's law, but looking at the history of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, it's the quiet pen-pusher you should fear.

Someone puts an order on their desk, they sign it without a second glance with a stroke of the pen, and another 100 rail wagons full of people are heading for a concentration camp or gulag

Enablers like Weyoun, the petty bureaucrat, are the true face of any totalitarian regime IMO.

The DS9 characters were usually pretty good but O'Brien sticks out for me, as does Dukat. I like how grounded and normal O'Brien is - kind of a reminder that even in the far future we'll need a bunch of guys with (almost) screwdrivers and hammers to keep things running.

I thought Brent Spiner was excellent as Data, though sometimes the actual writing of the character left a lot to be desired but that's more down to the tone and approach of the show. Didn't stop Patrick Stewart, of course, but I'd watch anything he's in.

I don't think there's any debate that the best Star Trek character ever is Wesley Crusher.