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Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

Inspired by others to finally write it all out... the following is a series of recommendations to increase internal balance within the T'au codex. The goal is to allow each sept to achieve a general usability that is just below the current level of T'au sept, rather than being deep in it's shadow. I select this goal because T'au sept is currently doing well competitively but in my experiences is perceived as one of the least fun armies to play with and against. I'd like to change that perception. For transparency I'd like to point out that my playstyle is competent casual (not cheezing to an assured victory or sacrificing viability for fluff). Please let me know if these are egregious, agreeable, breakable, or anything else you want to comment.

T'au Sept tenant: Suggested by vict0988 below and retooled a bit for fairness "If a unit with this tenant targets one and only one enemy unit in the shooting phase and deals an unsaved wound with any of it's ranged weapons, that unit is given a markerlight counter if it does not already have any." Teamwork for T'au Sept, a bit of relief for CC enemy units. Easy for beginners and saves point on ML but loses the flexibility of splitting targets if using it, redundant to self if ganging up.
T'au Sept stratagem: Make Focused Fire non-exclusive to any sept. Replace with "Distraction Maneuver -1CP- Use this stratagem when a T'au Sept unit from your army is selected as a target in the shooting phase and is not the closest friendly T'au Sept unit to the shooter. Attacks made by the shooter against this targeted unit suffer a -1 penalty to wound until the end of the phase." It can be increased to 2CP if consensus feels that is appropriate but consider that it is less strong than rotate ion shields. I chose a defense against ranged to contrast the tenant which is defense against CC. I chose wound penalty so that it wouldn't over stack with hit or armor from other sources. Alternatively the current tenant could be made a stratagem- oh right it kind of is.
T'au Sept warlord trait: Change strength of belief to affect crisis bodyguards instead of the warlord itself. I think that would be more interesting and useful for anyone who might actually want a reason to use bodyguards.
T'au Sept characters: Make Darkstrider a non-exclusive role rather than a sept exclusive character. FSE is lacking HQ options and his Fighting retreat ability is super useful for anyone with lots of fire warriors. Remove his structural analyzer as he would no longer be "named".

Sa'cea Sept warlord trait: Change to "Units within 3" of this model can re-roll up to two failed hit rolls instead of one with their Calm Discipline ability.
Sa'cea Sept signature system: Change to "Linked Trajectory HUD- You may roll a d6 each time a model with this ability loses a wound whilst within 3" of a friendly Sa'cea infantry unit. on a 2+ a model from that unit can intercept the hit - the bearer does not lose a wound but the intercepting unit suffers a mortal wound." Shadowsun gets this free for stealth suits so it doesn't seem too much for it to be a WL trait option for a different sept. I'd be ok with upping the target number, 2+ is merely standard. The idea is protection from snipers.

Vior'la Sept stratagem: Reduce cost to 1CP unless used on stealth suits.
Vior'la Sept signature system: Replace with darkstrider's Structural Analyzer but changing infantry restriction to one weapon per model. Rounds out the sept to have something useful for heavy support units like railguns. one weapon per model is to prevent superdakka on crisis suit blobs.

Bork'an Sept stratagem: Change to "Use this stratagem when selecting a unit to shoot in the shooting phase. The selected unit may treat it's ranged weapons as having 1 higher AP until the end of the phase when targeting units within half of the weapons range." Helps assault weapons that get close for rate of fire, who need it considering the tenant is not useful for assault weapons. Also goes along with the tenants bonus range.

Dal'yth Sept tenant: Change to "Models with this tenant gain a 5+ invulnerable save so long as no enemy models are within 9". Better for hammerhead and stormsurge and aircraft and well, nearly everyone. Less boring than staying still or not using terrain cover. Still counter-able and gives CC armies something to look forward to. I really dislike the current version because A) other tactics totally negate it and real cover, B) T'au is a fairly mobile army, C) many missions require mobility, D) playing without any terrain bonus is less interesting imo.
Dal'yth characters: Specify that Kel'shan is equivalent to Dal'yth for eligibility.

FSE tenant: Increase to 12". Back when t1 deepstrike was a thing I could get why it was so narrow but now it feels like this should be effective for T2 manta strikes.
FSE Character: Increase rate of fire on Commander Farsight's rifle to RF2. Recast in plastic.

General stratagem Repulsor impact field: Increase to 4" range to prevent gaming the system with pile-in move.
General stratagem Point-defense targeting relay: Replace with Focused Fire or "Blacksun filters -2CP- Use this stratagem when selecting a unit to shoot in the shooting phase. The selected unit may ignore 1 point of to-hit penalty not including the penalty incurred by moving and shooting heavy weapons, or advancing and shooting assault weapons."
General warlord trait Exemplar of the Kauyon: Change! When this unit is selected to shoot an overwatch attack in the charge phase, treat the charging unit as having been hit by one markerlight before shooting any ranged weapons.
General warlord trait Exemplar of the Mont'ka: Change! When this unit is selects a target to fight in the fight phase treat that unit as having been hit by one markerlight before attacking with any melee weapons.
General Relic Solid-image projection unit: Replace with something to give deny the witch to an ethereal.

I know there's a lot to digest here, please leave any feedback even if it's one thing at a time. Again I don't want to nerf T'au Empire, just make it less swingy and auto-pick. There are some bigger changes I have in mind but they'd involve point changes so maybe another time. Thanks for reading!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 19:19:48


 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

T'au Sept tenant: tone it down to overwatch only. I think 5+ FTGG makes playing against this sept extra un-fun with any CC specialists.

I think they need something to make up for it.
T'au Sept stratagem: Make Focused Fire non-exclusive to any sept. Replace with "Distraction Maneuver -1CP- Use this stratagem when a T'au Sept unit from your army is selected as a target in the shooting phase and is not the closest friendly T'au Sept unit to the shooter. Attacks made by the shooter against this targeted unit suffer a -1 penalty to wound until the end of the phase." It can be increased to 2CP if consensus feels that is appropriate but consider that it is less strong than rotate ion shields. I chose a defense against ranged to contrast the tenant which is defense against CC. I chose wound penalty so that it wouldn't over stack with hit or armor from other sources.

I don't think T'au Sept is known for trickery, when you shuffle Stratagems around you also start having problems with actually playing with the rules as well so I'm not a big fan of that.
T'au Sept warlord trait: Change strength of belief to affect crisis bodyguards instead of the warlord itself. I think that would be more interesting and useful for anyone who might actually want a reason to use bodyguards.

Not really fluffy, why would Strength of Belief translate into tougher bodyguards?
T'au Sept characters: Make Darkstrider a non-exclusive role rather than a sept exclusive character. FSE is lacking HQ options and his Fighting retreat ability is super useful for anyone with lots of fire warriors. Remove his structural analyzer as he would not longer be "named".

I get that Darkstrider is cool, but making Unique characters not Unique is kind of crazy. Just play Tau Sept if you like him. What I think should be changed is changing Shadowsun to be Tau´n Sept instead of Tau Sept. Seeing her and Darkstrider together frustrates me.
Sa'cea Sept warlord trait: Change to "Units within 3" of this model can re-roll up to two failed hit rolls instead of one with their Calm Discipline ability.
Sa'cea Sept signature system: Change to "Linked Trajectory HUD- You may roll a d6 each time a model with this ability loses a wound whilst within 3" of a friendly Sa'cea infantry unit. on a 2+ a model from that unit can intercept the hit - the bearer does not lose a wound but the intercepting unit suffers a mortal wound." Shadowsun gets this free for stealth suits so it doesn't seem too much for it to be a WL trait option for a different sept. I'd be ok with upping the target number, 2+ is merely standard.

You aren't fixing the problem of a Tau Sept army taking a Sacea Detachment with 3 Sniperlighters and a Commander, something I find extremely unfluffy. Sacea needs something that makes them viable as an army on its own. A 3" aura isn't going to do that.

Dal'yth Sept tenant: Change to "Models with this tenant gain a 5+ invulnerable save so long as no enemy models are within 9". Better for hammerhead and stormsurge and aircraft and well, nearly everyone. Less boring than staying still or not using terrain cover. Still counter-able and gives CC armies something to look forward to.

This seems worse than what they currently have. I think Dal'yth is the second most powerful Sept after Tau (ignoring the sniperlighters of Sacea).
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

I don't disagree that T'au sept tenant could use something to bring it back up.

I wasn't thinking about trickery when i wrote it, i was thinking about coordination. Our special objectives are unusually based on positioning and thought that a stratagem would match. I do understand where you're coming from now that you mention it though.

For strength of belief i was inspired by the old battleforce box art. As for the name translation it's the same effect, just with more inspiration or shared dedication. I was hoping it could create a niche where it currently doesn't work.

That is the problem with Darkstrider, that he has to be the same sept as the other good characters. Another check mark for T'au sept being better.

The current Sa'cea detachment is silly effective. My suggestions don't change that but i do think they make the sept more worthy of building a whole army around. I suppose giving the stratagem a range limit could nerf the standard combo a little.

That comes down to preference. Dal'yth would be a favorite of mine if not for the movement restriction that doesn't mesh with its stratagem and mission objectives. Also I'm more worried about ap-4/5 weapons hitting my hammerheads than bolters, ymmv.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

If you're making Focused Fire army wide instead of just Tau Sept then I don't think there's any need to make Darkstrider a generic character, though I do like the idea of a generic Pathfinder HQ anyway.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

There was another reason other than it being the best, it's also the least fun to play against because you get punished really heavily for playing a melee army against that Sept. Making the Chapter Tactic an effect of some kind similar to focus fire and having a Stratagem that hurts units that charge could make the Sept overall more fun to play against, they might still have a Stratagem that punishes units that charge, but at least they are paying CP every time they hurt you for charging, rather than just being little automatic turrets that completely obliterate anything that declares a charge. Providing a free Markerlight the first time you cause an unsaved wound each Shooting phase could be a Chapter Tactic for Tau Sept and their Stratagem could be Overwatch on 5+ or Supporting Fire on 5+ for one unit for 1 CP.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 vict0988 wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

There was another reason other than it being the best, it's also the least fun to play against because you get punished really heavily for playing a melee army against that Sept. Making the Chapter Tactic an effect of some kind similar to focus fire and having a Stratagem that hurts units that charge could make the Sept overall more fun to play against, they might still have a Stratagem that punishes units that charge, but at least they are paying CP every time they hurt you for charging, rather than just being little automatic turrets that completely obliterate anything that declares a charge. Providing a free Markerlight the first time you cause an unsaved wound each Shooting phase could be a Chapter Tactic for Tau Sept and their Stratagem could be Overwatch on 5+ or Supporting Fire on 5+ for one unit for 1 CP.

So the sept that shows the actual advancements of tau Gunlines technology needs to be nerfed because it.. does it’s job well and melee armies hurt against it? Lore wise melee armies would have the exact same tough time..
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

There was another reason other than it being the best, it's also the least fun to play against because you get punished really heavily for playing a melee army against that Sept. Making the Chapter Tactic an effect of some kind similar to focus fire and having a Stratagem that hurts units that charge could make the Sept overall more fun to play against, they might still have a Stratagem that punishes units that charge, but at least they are paying CP every time they hurt you for charging, rather than just being little automatic turrets that completely obliterate anything that declares a charge. Providing a free Markerlight the first time you cause an unsaved wound each Shooting phase could be a Chapter Tactic for Tau Sept and their Stratagem could be Overwatch on 5+ or Supporting Fire on 5+ for one unit for 1 CP.

So the sept that shows the actual advancements of tau Gunlines technology needs to be nerfed because it.. does it’s job well and melee armies hurt against it? Lore wise melee armies would have the exact same tough time..
Lore=/=gameplay, /=balance, and /=fun.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

There was another reason other than it being the best, it's also the least fun to play against because you get punished really heavily for playing a melee army against that Sept. Making the Chapter Tactic an effect of some kind similar to focus fire and having a Stratagem that hurts units that charge could make the Sept overall more fun to play against, they might still have a Stratagem that punishes units that charge, but at least they are paying CP every time they hurt you for charging, rather than just being little automatic turrets that completely obliterate anything that declares a charge. Providing a free Markerlight the first time you cause an unsaved wound each Shooting phase could be a Chapter Tactic for Tau Sept and their Stratagem could be Overwatch on 5+ or Supporting Fire on 5+ for one unit for 1 CP.

So the sept that shows the actual advancements of tau Gunlines technology needs to be nerfed because it.. does it’s job well and melee armies hurt against it? Lore wise melee armies would have the exact same tough time..
Lore=/=gameplay, /=balance, and /=fun.

I’m having fun in all those areas. Sorry you aren’t. Find a new army or a new game is the answer, not ruining someone else’s fun.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

I really don't mean to nerf T'au sept much, mainly to even out the faction so the sept specialties are cool adjustments rather than having one sept carry it. Also to make CC less groan worthy playing against T'au T'au. It doesn't seem right to me that Focus Fire makes killing a knight T1 so easy but only for T'au sept. That any sept's overwatch is perilous but T'au sept is downright suicide (plus infantry can fall back and shoot). That there is a special character for 3 unit types but only for T'au sept (both ethereals are meh imo). Having a strong stratagem for shooting phase defense and also improved but not outright slaughter overwatch seemed reasonable to me but that's why I'm asking for feedback.

Free markerlight on first hit against an enemy unit is a great suggestion, thank you vict0988, I'll amend that as an option. My initial reaction is that it'll keep T'au sept in 1st place since that would make the army easier and consistent and save pts on ML carriers. Maybe first unsaved wound on an un-lit enemy unit?
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Sorry about the necro but I wanted to post this here so I don't forget it some day and making a new thread wouldn't make sense.

Another option for Tau Sept would be to change their ability from 5+ Overwatch and FtGG to 12" FtGG. That would still keep the same theme of them being able to support and protect each other, would help make it less of a castle list and would probably produce less damage.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

Exactly.

Sacea is brought up as an example. All these parts of traits where you get one reroll or whatever are bad. That's not the good part of Salamanders, The Scourged, or Deffskulls. It needs a rework instead rather than trying to nerf the main Tau Sept, which honestly as a melee hound I'm fine with existing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

Exactly.

Sacea is brought up as an example. All these parts of traits where you get one reroll or whatever are bad. That's not the good part of Salamanders, The Scourged, or Deffskulls. It needs a rework instead rather than trying to nerf the main Tau Sept, which honestly as a melee hound I'm fine with existing.


Free rerolls in the faction you pick isn't bad, i find that they are the kind of faction bonuses that are interesting since they change how you play the army. Orks want to be all about mass shooting/melee, if you go deffskulls, then you want to spam MSU with lower amount of shots to benefit from your rerolls. Salamanders with lascannons / meltas/ missile launchers benefit greatly from the rerolls since it essentially becomes a potential 2cp per unit per shootnig/overwatch/fight phase. But of course it doesnt benefit horde armies, you gotta build around it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry

Exactly.

Sacea is brought up as an example. All these parts of traits where you get one reroll or whatever are bad. That's not the good part of Salamanders, The Scourged, or Deffskulls. It needs a rework instead rather than trying to nerf the main Tau Sept, which honestly as a melee hound I'm fine with existing.


Free rerolls in the faction you pick isn't bad, i find that they are the kind of faction bonuses that are interesting since they change how you play the army. Orks want to be all about mass shooting/melee, if you go deffskulls, then you want to spam MSU with lower amount of shots to benefit from your rerolls. Salamanders with lascannons / meltas/ missile launchers benefit greatly from the rerolls since it essentially becomes a potential 2cp per unit per shootnig/overwatch/fight phase. But of course it doesnt benefit horde armies, you gotta build around it.

Everyone already benefits from doing MSU. That's not a good argument. Like I said, that's not the part of the Army Rule you're looking at. Is it nice sometimes? Sure. Is it better replaced with basically ANY other rule? You betcha.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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