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Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Extracts the competitive 40K facebook group. There's pages upon pages of this stuff there suddenly.

I am not sure why there is so much rage among tournament players?

Did something happen? I thought the community actually came closer together with 8th.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/23 12:17:48


 
   
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Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

Because "competitive" (as if this word could be used for 40k...) players think themselves smart and smarter than the others 40k players because they listen to podcast telling them how to abuse rules and play probably more often to 40k than normal players.
So they think they are the best persons and casual are just idiots who don't understand the game and deserve the hate.

The competitive scene has always been toxic and a full of cry babies. Not surprised by those people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 11:23:29


   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear






Well when you get a sub group within a community that takes something very seriously and turns it up to 12... you get this sort of thing. Its a game of pushing plastic toys around with no real world consequences lol!

I wouldn't worry about it. FB is full of keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do than hate on things and people, to make themselves feel better... You can see it on dakka too, heck the internet at large is just allowing people to say anything they want and knowing people will read it and get a reaction. Theres a global breakdown in the ability to effectively communicate online. Its the same with video games etc...

These types of people would not say 1% of the things they say to a real person because when said out loud it would become apparent how ridiculous they sound. (Unless they are delusional/socially inept tiny fraction of society so not to notice)

You can see it with any type of competitive aspect of anything. You will always get loudmouth smack talkers who know it all and are right all the time. They found something they think they are better at than everyone else. Seems like overcompensating for a lack in something else, probably from childhood. Maybe sports abilities, GF, financial success whatever... I aint no psychologist though so could be way offf

My 2cents...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/21 01:10:04


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy 
   
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Douglas Bader






Sunny Side Up wrote:
I thought the community actually came closer together with 8th.


 godardc wrote:
Because "competitive" (as if this word could be used for 40k...) players think themselves as smart and smarter than the others 40k players because they listen to podcast telling them how to abuse rules and play probably more often to 40k than normal players.
So they think they are the best persons and casual are just idiots who don't understand the game and deserve the hate.

The competitive scene has always been toxic and a full of cry babies. Not surprised by those people.


Rarely is an OP shown to be wrong with such elegance and decisiveness.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 godardc wrote:
Because "competitive" (as if this word could be used for 40k...) players think themselves as smart and smarter than the others 40k players because they listen to podcast telling them how to abuse rules and play probably more often to 40k than normal players.
So they think they are the best persons and casual are just idiots who don't understand the game and deserve the hate.

The competitive scene has always been toxic and a full of cry babies. Not surprised by those people.


We're reaching whole new levels of irony.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come up with a cogent argument that doesn't just attack your opponent but rather attacks the points he is making, and show some understanding of what those against the table are saying (it's not about 'Lol complaining about a random table in a game about dice'), or leave the damned thread.

 
   
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 blood reaper wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Because "competitive" (as if this word could be used for 40k...) players think themselves as smart and smarter than the others 40k players because they listen to podcast telling them how to abuse rules and play probably more often to 40k than normal players.
So they think they are the best persons and casual are just idiots who don't understand the game and deserve the hate.

The competitive scene has always been toxic and a full of cry babies. Not surprised by those people.


We're reaching whole new levels of irony.


It's actually pretty common, sadly enough.

For the minority who care about differences in playstyle, the screeds about how vile the 'other' is are consistently vile themselves.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Halifax

We do tend to project self-hatred outwards.
   
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine






Yesterday afternoon, I brought a list.

2 Captains with Bolters
2 Lieutenants with Bolters and Chainswords
30 Bolter Marines
4 Missile Launchers
4 Lascannons
4 Heavy Bolters
2 Dreadnoughts with assault cannons and stormbotlers
3 Centurions with Hurricane Bolters and Heavy Bolters
1 Land Raider
1 Laser Predator Tank

I ran them at Blood Ravens (Using the IF tactic for them).

The game was fun, enjoyable and excitable! It swung both ways until turn 4 when my opponent, playing ork boyz horde finally got the up on me. End score was 9-6.

Competitives will constantly moan about every model in my list. They'll tell you they suck, they're too many points, they're not enough firepower. But, I've learned that the competitive version of 40K isn't as "wonderful" as they'll have you believe, and playing with these "sucky" units can be loads more fun.

Don't listen to that community. It's not the only way to enjoy this hobby.


   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




@OP: If I understood correctly, there's currently a lot of noise in the competitive crowd? There hasn't been anything major in 40K recently rulewise, but maybe there's a new list/trick someone found that I'm not aware of.
But we're in the middle of discovering what Apoc is all about though, which makes people wonder about the current 40K ruleset. Not sure if it would create heated arguments about 40K though.
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear






fresus wrote:
@OP: If I understood correctly, there's currently a lot of noise in the competitive crowd? There hasn't been anything major in 40K recently rulewise, but maybe there's a new list/trick someone found that I'm not aware of.
But we're in the middle of discovering what Apoc is all about though, which makes people wonder about the current 40K ruleset. Not sure if it would create heated arguments about 40K though.


Originaly he had a screenshot of a fb group with people saying some vile obnoxious things about playing with casual players etc. Just generly saying horrible obnoxious things.. I also dont think its to do with any specific event. Just a snapshot into a certain group of individuals. And he was trying to make sense of it maybe?

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You can't label the entire "competitive 40k" community by the words of a few. Just as you cannot label the entire casual community by the words of a few.

It is a well known truism that among the human race there are undesirables that attack others for not living or liking the things that that individual does.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

 auticus wrote:
You can't label the entire "competitive 40k" community by the words of a few. Just as you cannot label the entire casual community by the words of a few.

It is a well known truism that among the human race there are undesirables that attack others for not living or liking the things that that individual does.

It is known.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, I deem obnoxious tournament players and filthy casuals who don´t know the rules equally irritating. But there is a solution to the problem at hand: Don´t do tournaments or PUGs in your FLGS and then you will never run in with any kind of unsavory types. Instead spend time with your friends and play garage hammer. It worked for me perfectly.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Yeah. Was a selection of a conversation from FB Competitive 40K (and quite a few more than just a few select individuals) disparaging people who don't play tournaments. Unfortunately, the language they used was severe enough that it also violates dakka policies.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yeah. Was a selection of a conversation from FB Competitive 40K (and quite a few more than just a few select individuals) disparaging people who don't play tournaments. Unfortunately, the language they used was severe enough that it also violates dakka policies.


Seems like a great bunch to be around in that case.

But it's the way such "exclusive" groups tend to behave.

Meh is all i say to it. Not worth getting upset about it.

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_______________________________

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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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Los Angeles

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Extracts the competitive 40K facebook group. There's pages upon pages of this stuff there suddenly.

I am not sure why there is so much rage among tournament players?

Did something happen? I thought the community actually came closer together with 8th.
Keep in mind, you're citing the FB 'Comp. 40k', not necessarily tourney players. If I have the correct group, it says there are 9.4k members, so it's pretty easy to get some lower common denominators (a math term, I know ) posting the more base and bad of human diatribes.

I suggest, maybe go to a tourney, take a poll or survey there? Ask Qs like, "Is it annoying to play non-tourney players at these events? If yes, then is it their:
a. lack of tactical/strategic acumen
b. ignorance of rules?
c. the fact that *they* gripe and complain about tourney regulars?
d. and more.

And/or ask, "Is it positive to have non-tourney players? Why?" accompanied by similar, though reciprocal follow up Qs.
a. because you met new person
b. because they brought something different (and good) that is not a " 'Net list " or common build
c. etc


I think citing that discussion is really akin to attending a rally, political, religious or sports, and citing their over-the-top vehemence of their rivals/enemies, and then asking, "What's up with Raider fans (American football team in California, with bad attitude reputation) and their hatred of the Denver Broncos?
N.Y. Mets fans (or all ALB ) hating the N.Y. Yankees?

SunnyS.U., I am unable to cite any better known European rivalries, except the one my wife ran into. She was wearing a 'Tudor Rose'/England rugby jersey, while we were visiting in Wales. She pleaded "It's just a gift! I I didn't know!" I know your dakka flag says Germany.

Anyway, as a long time tourney player, I have nothing to disparage the non-tourney players, the garage players, etc. I'm not better (at 40k specifically) than any of them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/22 03:36:06


"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

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Regular Dakkanaut





 Brothererekose wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Extracts the competitive 40K facebook group. There's pages upon pages of this stuff there suddenly.

I am not sure why there is so much rage among tournament players?

Did something happen? I thought the community actually came closer together with 8th.
Keep in mind, you're citing the FB 'Comp. 40k', not necessarily tourney players. If I have the correct group, it says there are 9.4k members, so it's pretty easy to get some lower common denominators (a math term, I know ) posting the more base and bad of human diatribes.

I suggest, maybe go to a tourney, take a poll or survey there? Ask Qs like, "Is it annoying to play non-tourney players at these events? If yes, then is it their:
a. lack of tactical/strategic acumen
b. ignorance of rules?
c. the fact that *they* gripe and complain about tourney regulars?
d. and more.

And/or ask, "Is it positive to have non-tourney players? Why?" accompanied by similar, though reciprocal follow up Qs.
a. because you met new person
b. because they brought something different (and good) that is not a " 'Net list " or common build
c. etc


I think citing that discussion is really akin to attending a rally, political, religious or sports, and citing their over-the-top vehemence of their rivals/enemies, and then asking, "What's up with Raider fans (American football team in California, with bad attitude reputation) and their hatred of the Denver Broncos?
N.Y. Mets fans (or all ALB ) hating the N.Y. Yankees?

SunnyS.U., I am unable to cite any better known European rivalries, except the one my wife ran into. She was wearing a 'Tudor Rose'/England rugby jersey, while we were visiting in Wales. She pleaded "It's just a gift! I I didn't know!" I know your dakka flag says Germany.

Anyway, as a long time tourney player, I have nothing to disparage the non-tourney players, the garage players, etc. I'm not better (at 40k specifically) than any of them.


Europeans have spent most of human history trying to kill each other. It's only over the last 70 years that we've decided to settle down and actually work for the common good, so national rivalries are well understood. What the OP is quoting is a bunch of people so heavily invested in 'the hobby' that they've allowed their self-image and self-worth to be based on it. It's pretty sad, really. More to be pitied than scorned. Of course, this isn't true of every tourney or competitive player as surely as the stereotype of derpy rules-idiot isn't true of 99% of casual players.
   
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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Haters gonna whine.
   
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Los Angeles

Banville wrote:
Europeans have spent most of human history trying to kill each other. It's only over the last 70 years that we've decided to settle down and actually work for the common good, so national rivalries are well understood. What the OP is quoting is a bunch of people so heavily invested in 'the hobby' that they've allowed their self-image and self-worth to be based on it. It's pretty sad, really. More to be pitied than scorned. Of course, this isn't true of every tourney or competitive player as surely as the stereotype of derpy rules-idiot isn't true of 99% of casual players.

Yeah, I skipped citation of national conflicts; those being 70+ years back. 'Course, the Iron Curtain only went down 30+ years ago. I was just sticking with the overall civilian goofery.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
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 Brothererekose wrote:
Banville wrote:
Europeans have spent most of human history trying to kill each other. It's only over the last 70 years that we've decided to settle down and actually work for the common good, so national rivalries are well understood. What the OP is quoting is a bunch of people so heavily invested in 'the hobby' that they've allowed their self-image and self-worth to be based on it. It's pretty sad, really. More to be pitied than scorned. Of course, this isn't true of every tourney or competitive player as surely as the stereotype of derpy rules-idiot isn't true of 99% of casual players.

Yeah, I skipped citation of national conflicts; those being 70+ years back. 'Course, the Iron Curtain only went down 30+ years ago. I was just sticking with the overall civilian goofery.


70 years back.

--> so how bout Yugoslavia?

Mind you theres also countries made up out of countries still around but that one there is a bit of an iffy case.
Not to mention that spain has it's own issues and i am just waiting for some new shenanigans between coriscan and france /austria and italy due to South tyrol.

Especially with the parties involved but he just europe.

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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Painting Within the Lines




Sheep Loveland

So, steering this back onto the topic in hand than it descending into political bollocks about Europe the last 70 odd years (interesting discussion, but considering the ban on politics I don't want to see a thread nuked because if it).

I currently can play in 5 specific locations, two of which are GW stores themselves and are usually running theme days/events so for matched play 40k, I have the choice of two LGS and a gaming group. The gaming group and the one LGS caters to both casual and competitive 40k and are great places to be.

The other LGS is full on competitive matched only. The current cheese/spam/meta is alive and well here. Minimum 3 colours is a rarity. And to top it off really scummy out if game tactics used to. For example, in a slow grow league, my first opponent in the 1000pts games was running guilliman. And my second opponent got chatting to me as I showed off my foot force Custodes (around 90% painted) and turns up to my game with two storm eagles. Yeah, left a bitter taste in my mouth to say the least. It's so bad in that place even the necromunda league is full WAAC with 0% narrative and even frostgrave had people running the exact same Elementalist builds with 0% fun.

So yeah, I can see this as perfectly normal behaviour for WAAC players who believe they are better because their hyper min/max list will win unless countered by an exact list. While I understand that everyone has fun in different ways, but seriously, this kind of behaviour isn't going to win you friends or repeat opponents.

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Battlefield Tourist






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Any unhappiness is mostly GWs incompetent and unprofessional game design team's fault for not being able to create an even halfway balanced game.

   
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Privateer




Austria

The tournament scene going crazy at the end of an edition is nothing new nor something to worry about.

The rules of the game are not really that good or thought thru until the end. So we get the hype at the beginning while everything is new and the tournament scene changes for the better, as soon as the first Codex appears that breaks the core game (this is were some players usually bring the excuse that it is written with the next edition in mind) it turns around and get worse with each new release.

Now we are at a point were the Edition is mostly done and we are just waiting for 9th to hit and shake the game up again bringing the competitive scene down (as everything is new and "balanced")

This is also usually the time when 40k competitive people find their way into Fantasy and start playing there.

Each edition of WH/AoS and 40k had the point were the other one was the better game but now AoS still get so much hate from people because of what was done that this option is not for the majority, so instead of switching and we get more hate towards the game than in the past.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

So yeah, I can see this as perfectly normal behaviour for WAAC players who believe they are better because their hyper min/max list will win unless countered by an exact list. While I understand that everyone has fun in different ways, but seriously, this kind of behaviour isn't going to win you friends or repeat opponents.


WAAC players and competitive players are not the same and I have met less WAAC type of people at tournaments than in casual club games

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I want to see the screenshot now.

   
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Steady Stonecleaver







Go look at the recent interview Ash did with a tourney grinder at Guerilla Miniatures Gaming. It is very telling. Ash is asking about all the obvious issues casuals have with the game and the other guy most of the time cannot even comprehend the questions, or gives imbecilic answers that only apply to tourney play (like "it doesn't matter that some army building choices are better than others because the "meta" is self-correcting"). It takes Ash 5 minutes of prodding and rephrasing to get the guy to even admit that two army lists costing the same points might not have an equal chance of winning given equal player skill. He goes as far as claiming that an army of nothing but bolter marines should do fine as long as they "play to the mission".

https://youtu.be/gtxqgHRrmAY

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/06/24 08:52:21


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Competive 40k is self contradicting term anyway so what's the matter anyway.

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tneva82 wrote:
Competive 40k is self contradicting term anyway so what's the matter anyway.


Highly inclined to disagree with you. High level play is completely different to the average beet and pretzels game of 40k.

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 Tyranid Horde wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Competive 40k is self contradicting term anyway so what's the matter anyway.


Highly inclined to disagree with you. High level play is completely different to the average beet and pretzels game of 40k.

Of course, but out of all the wargames out there, 40K is far from having the best ruleset to play competitively.
From a competitive point of view, 40K's main appeal is the very large player base/number of big events, not its inherent tactical depth. The rules are lacking, and it's very expensive, especially when a quick point change can make dozens of your model unplayable at the highest level.
   
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Tampa, FL

As far as rules go, Warhammer is one of the worst games to play as a competitive game. Way too many inconsistencies, poor wording, inconsistent wording, vague rules, and that's not even getting into the balance (or lack thereof). Really the only benefit is the number of players which enables a larger pool of players.

The fact there is this underlying desire to turn Warhammer into a "tabletop sport" despite all its flaws and shortcomings is a bigger issue, since "competitive" Warhammer barely resembles the game as it's played outside of those mediums, yet at the same time those mediums trickle down and affect everything from local events to casual game nights at the local gaming store. It has the adverse effect of permeating every aspect of the game rather than having a clear delineation between competitive and casual games.

On top of that, the mindset of the competitive Warhammer crowd is far and away removed from how everyone else plays but online it seems to be the only thing that gets discussed. How many times have you seen someone asks a question, and get told what's competitive/meta or told to scrap their entire army and buy something else, rather than be given advice on how to make what they want to play work (something you often see in other games rather than "Change 60% of your army"). How many rules for events are assumed to be base rules (the "rule of 3" and detachment rules spring to mind here; these are for organized events, yet almost everyone online talks and references them as though they were Matched Play rules)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/24 12:52:09


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Wayniac wrote:
As far as rules go, Warhammer is one of the worst games to play as a competitive game. Way too many inconsistencies, poor wording, inconsistent wording, vague rules, and that's not even getting into the balance (or lack thereof). Really the only benefit is the number of players which enables a larger pool of players.

The fact there is this underlying desire to turn Warhammer into a "tabletop sport" despite all its flaws and shortcomings is a bigger issue, since "competitive" Warhammer barely resembles the game as it's played outside of those mediums, yet at the same time those mediums trickle down and affect everything from local events to casual game nights at the local gaming store. It has the adverse effect of permeating every aspect of the game rather than having a clear delineation between competitive and casual games.

On top of that, the mindset of the competitive Warhammer crowd is far and away removed from how everyone else plays but online it seems to be the only thing that gets discussed. How many times have you seen someone asks a question, and get told what's competitive/meta or told to scrap their entire army and buy something else, rather than be given advice on how to make what they want to play work (something you often see in other games rather than "Change 60% of your army"). How many rules for events are assumed to be base rules (the "rule of 3" and detachment rules spring to mind here; these are for organized events, yet almost everyone online talks and references them as though they were Matched Play rules)


Maybe, but why would that make so many people who play 40K competitively and primarily/exclusively in tournaments (whether or not that is a flawed aspiration) display so much hate and loathing towards those that do not?

If anything, based on your explanation, I'd except animosity to go mainly in the other direction.
   
 
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