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At the moment, the basic Sister of Battle statline is Weapon Skill 4+, Ballistic Skill 3+, Strength 3, Toughness 3. These are the same characteristics shared by other "elite human" units like Stormtroopers and Skitarii, which makes sense - after all, Battle Sisters even graduate from the same school system as Militarum Tempestus Scions. Or to put it another way, S3/T3 is the human baseline, exceeded only through heavy bionics, mutations, genetic engineering, etc, which Battle Sisters don't have, while WS4+, BS4+ is the "human soldier" baseline, and only gets an extra pip in either direction from elite training, which Battle Sisters do have.

However, it results in a dynamic where Battle Sisters are just as good at shooting stuff as (pre-Bolter Drill) Tactical Marines, can directly compete at range with the (heavily-gun-focused) Skitarii Rangers, and are far, far more dangerous at range than the same number of Astra Militarum Infantry. Meanwhile, they're... exactly as good as basic Astra Militarum Infantry in close combat. They're worse than Catachans, in fact, and even worse when Orders are taken into account - but let's set those aside for now.

This is weird because the Adepta Sororitas are presented to us, in the setting, as fanatical zealots dedicated to purging impurity from the galaxy with blade and flame. The kind of god-bothering whackos who would (and do) charge into combat equipped with nothing but a prayer and a giant chainsword in order to redeem their own perceived sins. So it doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me that a) the rules encourage Battle Sisters to stay at range at all costs because they're useless at close combat, b) the rules suggest Battle Sisters don't focus their training on close combat over ranged weaponry, compared to the special forces-esque Stormtroopers.

I'd like to see the Battle Sister statline changed to Weapon Skill 3+, Ballistic Skill 4+. At that point, they're still better than basic Astra Militarum Infantry at shooting - but it's their guns that make the difference (and for a baseline human, even one in low-grade power armour, a boltgun has to have one hell of a kick...). But now they're better than Infantry, Stormtroopers, or Skitarii at close combat, because they have that extra pip of Weapon Skill. Granted, this would also need to come with a slight discount, since specialists are always more valuable than generalists, but it certainly seems to fit the fluff better.

Or just slap Zealot onto all of them, I dunno.

Thoughts?
   
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The strength 3/toughness 3 is the typical stat line for the normal human up to the most elite and well trained, which Scions and sisters represent.
For regular human soldiers, the only time I think WS goes under 4 is when you have the crazy Kriegers.
Otherwise, Scions have better BS due to their sniper training. I don’t know fully about sisters, but I’m sure they exceptionally train themselves as well.

A further note, sisters and Scions do both graduate from the Schola Progenium. But, they both learn the respective skills they need at other places—The Scions at the Schola Tempestus and the Sisters at whichever convent.

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R&H Militia are WS (and BS) 5+.

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What if they gave choppy SOB units WS3+ and BS4+ aka the Blood Claw treatment? Would also incentivise using Hand Flamers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/29 15:21:47


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 Excommunicatus wrote:
R&H Militia are WS (and BS) 5+.

Under 4 meaning 3+ on down. R&H is bad FW.

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Sisters are really good at close combat, actually. I play them that way.

Use Order of the Bloody Rose for +1S +1A on the charge, equip power weapons, and leverage good access to very aggressive and fast units to get in a kill stuff on the charge. Support with priest for a fairly decent impression of Berzerkers. We're better than most other MEQ at it. Being "good at combat", IMO, isn't so much a matter of having thunder hammers, but a matter of being able to get to combat with adequate armament. And we're really good at the "get to combat" part. The low WS hurts a little bit, since 4+rr1 is appreciably worse than 3+rr1, but we do have good WS3+ units that are fast, tough, and lethal [Seraphim]

The one thing that I think we really need is a lieutenant-grade character for re-rolls to wound. Our arsenal is overwhelmingly S4 and S8, and wounding is the trouble most of the time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/29 16:36:54


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The sisters have traditionally been a short range shooting army, not a close combat army (and actually have been outright terrible at CC for most of their run).

They are an attritional army. Run them forward, have them cheap enough that some survive to attack, and then have those wiped out as the next wave comes in. Faith being the tools to make trades inefficient for the opponent and to bolster the few units that make it so that the sisters can't be taken out at the knees by losing critical units on the way in.

The trouble with the sisters at the moment is they don't have the old punch when they get in close, it promotes clumping up and trying to outlast opponents. It's worth noting that the sisters 'assault' units do all have WS 3+ already.
   
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Well, if we wanna go by the fluff you have two options.

1) Everyone is good at everything.

2) Humans (mostly Space Marines) are the best at everything, and everyone else sucks.

Or, in other words: the fluff rarely matches the gameplay.
   
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RevlidRas wrote:
I'd like to see the Battle Sister statline changed to Weapon Skill 3+, Ballistic Skill 4+. At that point, they're still better than basic Astra Militarum Infantry at shooting - but it's their guns that make the difference (and for a baseline human, even one in low-grade power armour, a boltgun has to have one hell of a kick...). But now they're better than Infantry, Stormtroopers, or Skitarii at close combat, because they have that extra pip of Weapon Skill. Granted, this would also need to come with a slight discount, since specialists are always more valuable than generalists, but it certainly seems to fit the fluff better.


That would all depend on which version of the bolt weaponry is in play. Theoretically, they're a really low-kick weapon, given a small gas charge ejects the round from the weapon before the rocket-propelled bit activates. However, this is one of the things that varies by writer.

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Have to disagree, myself. Sisters have been shooty with elite combat elements sprinkled in.
Celestians and repentia both have a ws3+. If we counts the ministorum units, then there's another 4 units that are dedicated close combat with ws3+ half of which reroll failed hits.

The sisters ranged combat training regimen has been comparable to space marines- can't remember where I read that but I read it-.
I view the 4+ws being more representative of their lack of close combat experience when they're focused on ranged drill.
Explains the Celestians 3+ws as representing the experience that comes with time seeing as Celestians have had a few decades under their belt.
   
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making sisters WS3 and BS4 would be a nerf to sisters no two ways about it/ I'd be fine withWS3 and BS3 myselfit doesn't seem unreasonable.

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 Apple Peel wrote:
The strength 3/toughness 3 is the typical stat line for the normal human up to the most elite and well trained, which Scions and sisters represent.
For regular human soldiers, the only time I think WS goes under 4 is when you have the crazy Kriegers.
Otherwise, Scions have better BS due to their sniper training. I don’t know fully about sisters, but I’m sure they exceptionally train themselves as well.
WS4+, BS4+ is the standard for trained human soldiers, yes.

Elite human soldiers get WS4+, BS3+ - that's found on Stormtroopers, Veterans, and Skitarii, plus current Battle Sisters.

Elite humans warriors get WS3+, BS4+ - that's found on basic Kriegers, Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Sisters Repentia. It's less common, because baseline humans are too weedy for the most part, but it happens. I just think Sororitas fit more into this category than the former.

A.T. wrote:
The sisters have traditionally been a short range shooting army, not a close combat army (and actually have been outright terrible at CC for most of their run).

They are an attritional army. Run them forward, have them cheap enough that some survive to attack, and then have those wiped out as the next wave comes in. Faith being the tools to make trades inefficient for the opponent and to bolster the few units that make it so that the sisters can't be taken out at the knees by losing critical units on the way in.

The trouble with the sisters at the moment is they don't have the old punch when they get in close, it promotes clumping up and trying to outlast opponents. It's worth noting that the sisters 'assault' units do all have WS 3+ already.
That's fair. I guess it just seems weird that your average Battle Sister hits like Dave the Guardsman in close combat.
   
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RevlidRas wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
The strength 3/toughness 3 is the typical stat line for the normal human up to the most elite and well trained, which Scions and sisters represent.
For regular human soldiers, the only time I think WS goes under 4 is when you have the crazy Kriegers.
Otherwise, Scions have better BS due to their sniper training. I don’t know fully about sisters, but I’m sure they exceptionally train themselves as well.
WS4+, BS4+ is the standard for trained human soldiers, yes.

Elite human soldiers get WS4+, BS3+ - that's found on Stormtroopers, Veterans, and Skitarii, plus current Battle Sisters.

Elite humans warriors get WS3+, BS4+ - that's found on basic Kriegers, Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Sisters Repentia. It's less common, because baseline humans are too weedy for the most part, but it happens. I just think Sororitas fit more into this category than the former.

A.T. wrote:
The sisters have traditionally been a short range shooting army, not a close combat army (and actually have been outright terrible at CC for most of their run).

They are an attritional army. Run them forward, have them cheap enough that some survive to attack, and then have those wiped out as the next wave comes in. Faith being the tools to make trades inefficient for the opponent and to bolster the few units that make it so that the sisters can't be taken out at the knees by losing critical units on the way in.

The trouble with the sisters at the moment is they don't have the old punch when they get in close, it promotes clumping up and trying to outlast opponents. It's worth noting that the sisters 'assault' units do all have WS 3+ already.
That's fair. I guess it just seems weird that your average Battle Sister hits like Dave the Guardsman in close combat.


sisters are a definate victiem of the lack og granuality of a D6 base ideally guard should be S3. sisters (with their power armor enchanced strneght) and Space Marine scouts (with their gene enhancements) should be S4, Space Marines should eb S5 and Primaris Marines (to reflect their enhanced str) should be S6. with other factions having their own units str boosted to reflect their capabilities. (an Ork Nob for example could be as strong as S6, with a warboss being S7, just for example)

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Yes, and so should marines. Because power armor.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, and so should marines. Because power armor.
Power Armour is only a part of why Marines are stronger. It's a strength multiplier, not a strength addition. They have enhanced physiology, the Black Carapace and decades to centuries of experience.

SoB Power Armour is of poorer quality, not backed up by ALL THE DRUGS and is being piloted by a woman who three weeks ago had to ask to use the bathroom.

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The real problem was putting Space Marines at str 4 to begin with. Really they needed to not go so low with strength and toughness on a lot of things in 8th. Didn't leave themselves room for granularity without using special rules.
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Sisters are really good at close combat, actually. I play them that way.

Use Order of the Bloody Rose for +1S +1A on the charge, equip power weapons, and leverage good access to very aggressive and fast units to get in a kill stuff on the charge. Support with priest for a fairly decent impression of Berzerkers. We're better than most other MEQ at it. Being "good at combat", IMO, isn't so much a matter of having thunder hammers, but a matter of being able to get to combat with adequate armament. And we're really good at the "get to combat" part. The low WS hurts a little bit, since 4+rr1 is appreciably worse than 3+rr1, but we do have good WS3+ units that are fast, tough, and lethal [Seraphim]

The one thing that I think we really need is a lieutenant-grade character for re-rolls to wound. Our arsenal is overwhelmingly S4 and S8, and wounding is the trouble most of the time.


You must be fighting a lot of cultists then, because statistically a full unit of 10 seraphim kills precisely 1 intercessor on the charge, even in bloody rose.

That's not exactly what I call 'lethal'.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Yes, and so should marines. Because power armor.
Power Armour is only a part of why Marines are stronger. It's a strength multiplier, not a strength addition. They have enhanced physiology, the Black Carapace and decades to centuries of experience.

SoB Power Armour is of poorer quality, not backed up by ALL THE DRUGS and is being piloted by a woman who three weeks ago had to ask to use the bathroom.


Sisters armor is just as high quality, but doesn't have the bells and whistles (many of which require a black carapace). As far as protection and speed, it's just as good. It has the same targeting systems and HUDs. It doesn't enhance their strength as much though.
   
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ERJAK wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Sisters are really good at close combat, actually. I play them that way.

Use Order of the Bloody Rose for +1S +1A on the charge, equip power weapons, and leverage good access to very aggressive and fast units to get in a kill stuff on the charge. Support with priest for a fairly decent impression of Berzerkers. We're better than most other MEQ at it. Being "good at combat", IMO, isn't so much a matter of having thunder hammers, but a matter of being able to get to combat with adequate armament. And we're really good at the "get to combat" part. The low WS hurts a little bit, since 4+rr1 is appreciably worse than 3+rr1, but we do have good WS3+ units that are fast, tough, and lethal [Seraphim]

The one thing that I think we really need is a lieutenant-grade character for re-rolls to wound. Our arsenal is overwhelmingly S4 and S8, and wounding is the trouble most of the time.


You must be fighting a lot of cultists then, because statistically a full unit of 10 seraphim kills precisely 1 intercessor on the charge, even in bloody rose.

That's not exactly what I call 'lethal'.


Few units kill in close combat anymore.

Lets take a 10 man basic bare bones Assault Squad vs a 10 man Intercessor squad. Assault Marines get the charge. 10 marines. 21 attacks, 14 hits 7 wounding rolls. 2.31 wounds after armor saves. 1 dead Intercessor.
The problem with close combat isn't WS 4+

Now take a 10 man Vanguard Vet with 10 bolt pistols and 10 power swords. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounding rolls, 5.8333 wounds after armor saves. probably 3 dead intercessors.
The problem is that they only took part of the second edition rules. CCW weapons with strong armor save mods are not available enough to CCW based non-elite units. In Second Ed, you had armor save modifiers like now, and Assault Squads were taking a mix of power axes, power swords, and power fists with bolt pistols, and plasma pistols with chainswords(The plasma pistols were usable in CCW). Partly because the kit didn't have enough power swords for everyone. After so many years of the bolt pistol/chainsword kit, I can certainly understand them not wanting to open the floodgates on Power Sword Assault marines now, so the CCW oriented squads probably should have a squad level rule giving them a -X save modifier in close combat (potentially only against infantry, bikers, and walkers or some such) (also Potentially only when using chainswords, or combat knives, or generic close combat weapons, whatever their basic load S: As User, AP 0 D1 stabby slashy bashy thing is to prevent stacking it on power weapons that don't need it and shouldn't get it. ) justified by their skill and specialization finding holes in armor up close or some such, to offset the missing power weaponry. This would allow them to maintain the balance on the Chainsword weilding Tactical Sergeant while giving the assault squad the boost it needs to remain viable/competitive in it's role.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/30 07:58:51


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The problem with Assault Marines is that they only have two attacks each max. Volume is king in 8th edition.

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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Support with priest for a fairly decent impression of Berzerkers.
That's perhaps a little optimistic. :p
A single bloody rose/priest sister has three WS4, S4, AP- attacks on the first round only at 9 points, with a pair of S3 attacks each round thereafter.
A world eaters berserker is less than twice the cost for more than twice the attacks at twice the strength, hitting around twice as often (DttFE), and a champion with an attack profile comparable to a penitent engine.

Outside of repentia I see bloody rose as more cleanup/protection from getting tied up than actual combat threats. If celestians/seraphim get power weapons that could change, assuming the current blood rose rules survive to the codex as well. The core sisters squads though are at best looking at picking up an S8 eviscerator unless GW includes them as a special weapon alternate.
   
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem with Assault Marines is that they only have two attacks each max. Volume is king in 8th edition.


We use six sided dice. Volume is king in every edition.

Both units had 21 attacks.

A 10 man Intercessor squad has 20 shots at -1.
That 10 man Intercessor squad fighting back has 20 attacks at S: User, AP0, and D1.

Reivers Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife - 31 attacks 20.77 hits, 13.9159 wounding rolls 4.59 wounds after after armor saves. 2 dead Intercessors. And the Reivers are 95% of the Vanguard Vet's points for 78% of the wounds. Give the Reivers 2 point jump packs and they cost more for less damage.


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Breton wrote:
After so many years of the bolt pistol/chainsword kit, I can certainly understand them not wanting to open the floodgates on Power Sword Assault marines now, so the CCW oriented squads probably should have a squad level rule giving them a -X save modifier in close combat (potentially only against infantry, bikers, and walkers or some such) (also Potentially only when using chainswords, or combat knives, or generic close combat weapons, whatever their basic load S: As User, AP 0 D1 stabby slashy bashy thing is to prevent stacking it on power weapons that don't need it and shouldn't get it. ) justified by their skill and specialization finding holes in armor up close or some such, to offset the missing power weaponry. This would allow them to maintain the balance on the Chainsword weilding Tactical Sergeant while giving the assault squad the boost it needs to remain viable/competitive in it's role.
It's not helped by the following apparent design process:
  • Pistol+CCW gives +1A, but not all pistols are the same. That doesn't make sense!
  • What if Pistols just let you shoot in combat? That's basically the same, but it's much more realistic.
  • But wait, everyone can shoot before charging anyway now, and pistols are easily the worst ranged weapons, so this makes pistol+CCW units relatively much worse on the first turn of combat.
  • And because of Fall Back, it will always be the first turn of combat.
  • And lots of assault units have worse BS than WS. Or worse Strength on their pistols than their fists.
  • Well, uh, what if we just give them back the +1A, but make it an effect of the CCW instead? Now it's not tied to a pistol!
  • Now all our basic CCW have stats that read +1A, whether they're chainswords or just combat knives. That... makes very little sense, but let's roll with it.
  • Wait, doesn't that make non-basic CCW less relatively powerful too, because you're not getting +1A on a powerfist+pistol?
  • I guess we just have to inflate the basic Attacks characteristic of any assault unit without a chainsword, to make up for it.
  • This definitely won't have consequences when buffs are layered on.
  • Oh well, time for lunch, print this thing.
  • This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/30 09:34:58


     
       
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    Breton wrote:
    ERJAK wrote:
     Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
    Sisters are really good at close combat, actually. I play them that way.

    Use Order of the Bloody Rose for +1S +1A on the charge, equip power weapons, and leverage good access to very aggressive and fast units to get in a kill stuff on the charge. Support with priest for a fairly decent impression of Berzerkers. We're better than most other MEQ at it. Being "good at combat", IMO, isn't so much a matter of having thunder hammers, but a matter of being able to get to combat with adequate armament. And we're really good at the "get to combat" part. The low WS hurts a little bit, since 4+rr1 is appreciably worse than 3+rr1, but we do have good WS3+ units that are fast, tough, and lethal [Seraphim]

    The one thing that I think we really need is a lieutenant-grade character for re-rolls to wound. Our arsenal is overwhelmingly S4 and S8, and wounding is the trouble most of the time.


    You must be fighting a lot of cultists then, because statistically a full unit of 10 seraphim kills precisely 1 intercessor on the charge, even in bloody rose.

    That's not exactly what I call 'lethal'.


    Few units kill in close combat anymore.

    Lets take a 10 man basic bare bones Assault Squad vs a 10 man Intercessor squad. Assault Marines get the charge. 10 marines. 21 attacks, 14 hits 7 wounding rolls. 2.31 wounds after armor saves. 1 dead Intercessor.
    The problem with close combat isn't WS 4+

    Now take a 10 man Vanguard Vet with 10 bolt pistols and 10 power swords. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounding rolls, 5.8333 wounds after armor saves. probably 3 dead intercessors.
    The problem is that they only took part of the second edition rules. CCW weapons with strong armor save mods are not available enough to CCW based non-elite units. In Second Ed, you had armor save modifiers like now, and Assault Squads were taking a mix of power axes, power swords, and power fists with bolt pistols, and plasma pistols with chainswords(The plasma pistols were usable in CCW). Partly because the kit didn't have enough power swords for everyone. After so many years of the bolt pistol/chainsword kit, I can certainly understand them not wanting to open the floodgates on Power Sword Assault marines now, so the CCW oriented squads probably should have a squad level rule giving them a -X save modifier in close combat (potentially only against infantry, bikers, and walkers or some such) (also Potentially only when using chainswords, or combat knives, or generic close combat weapons, whatever their basic load S: As User, AP 0 D1 stabby slashy bashy thing is to prevent stacking it on power weapons that don't need it and shouldn't get it. ) justified by their skill and specialization finding holes in armor up close or some such, to offset the missing power weaponry. This would allow them to maintain the balance on the Chainsword weilding Tactical Sergeant while giving the assault squad the boost it needs to remain viable/competitive in it's role.


    You wasted a lot of time comparing really, really terrible units really terrible melee stats here.

    Also, there's a name for the 'few' melee units that kill stuff:

    THE GOOD ONES.

    Smash captains, Bloodletters, melee knights, literally everyhting GSC have, harlequins, DE melee specialists, and Ork boyz all kill stuff just fine in combat.

    Also, your point gets really confused towards the end. Why did you meander off into talking about assault marine buffs when the two threads of the conversation were 'Seraphim aren't good in melee' and 'Whether or not there are things that can kill stuff in melee'?

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     Giantwalkingchair wrote:
    Sisters have been shooty with elite combat elements sprinkled in.

    This.

    Celestians, for example, used to have a better to-hit roll than most Space Marines, for example, before they got nerfed hard in 5th edition. They just never really had the equipment to do anything about it, instead relying on Acts of Faith to be tarpits basically. And then there's Repentia, whom are exclusively melee, and have been buffed and nerfed in weird ways because GW has no freaking idea what to do with Sisters.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 17:07:48


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    Simply put, too many units in armies have 3+ abilities when they shouldn't, and inexplicably so. Guardians should still be 4+/4+...as should Space Marine scouts, etc.

     
       
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    Breton wrote:
     AlmightyWalrus wrote:
    The problem with Assault Marines is that they only have two attacks each max. Volume is king in 8th edition.


    We use six sided dice. Volume is king in every edition.

    Both units had 21 attacks.

    A 10 man Intercessor squad has 20 shots at -1.
    That 10 man Intercessor squad fighting back has 20 attacks at S: User, AP0, and D1.

    Reivers Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife - 31 attacks 20.77 hits, 13.9159 wounding rolls 4.59 wounds after after armor saves. 2 dead Intercessors. And the Reivers are 95% of the Vanguard Vet's points for 78% of the wounds. Give the Reivers 2 point jump packs and they cost more for less damage.



    Dude, you are all over the place. You are in dire need of a clear thesis.

    So far all you've done is compare really terrible units really terrible melee stats and gone 'See!'

    What exactly is the point you're trying to make? If it's 'melee sucks' then you're not supporting it well. If it's 'marines suck at melee' you're correct but you're in the wrong thread.

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     Elbows wrote:
    Simply put, too many units in armies have 3+ abilities when they shouldn't, and inexplicably so. Guardians should still be 4+/4+...as should Space Marine scouts, etc.
    It's almost like being stuck to a D6 limits the range of abilities you can represent with a simple "Beat x+" check.

    If we used a D12 as the base dice for the game then we could have Guardsmen at 7+, Elite Humans/Crisis Suit Equivalents at 6+, Space Marines at 5+, Elite Space Marines at 4+, Hyper Specialised Superhumans/Xenos at 3+ and Living Gods at 2+

    Would also allow for terminator armour to be useful again (make it a 2+ armour save compared to Power Armour 4+) and would make modifiers a nice bonus rather than crippling and/or a hard carry.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/30 17:37:30


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    ERJAK wrote:


    You wasted a lot of time comparing really, really terrible units really terrible melee stats here.

    Also, there's a name for the 'few' melee units that kill stuff:

    THE GOOD ONES.

    Smash captains, Bloodletters, melee knights, literally everyhting GSC have, harlequins, DE melee specialists, and Ork boyz all kill stuff just fine in combat.

    Also, your point gets really confused towards the end. Why did you meander off into talking about assault marine buffs when the two threads of the conversation were 'Seraphim aren't good in melee' and 'Whether or not there are things that can kill stuff in melee'?


    There's a name for a system where the standard purpose built unit isn't good at the purpose it's built for. A bad system.

    Someone mentioned buffs would make some sort of disparity they claimed worse. I was pointing out buffs weren't in the mix in the first place.


    Erjak wrote:
    ]Dude, you are all over the place. You are in dire need of a clear thesis.

    So far all you've done is compare really terrible units really terrible melee stats and gone 'See!'

    What exactly is the point you're trying to make? If it's 'melee sucks' then you're not supporting it well. If it's 'marines suck at melee' you're correct but you're in the wrong thread.


    Yes, really terrible units.. that are supposed to be close combat specialists. I'll grant all the units I picked were Marines. They're the baseline/common point of reference. People have already stipulated Sisters are bad at melee as well.

    20 Hormaguants Dealing - we'll split the difference between points (30) vs base size (12) - 40 attacks 20 hits, 6.6 wounds, 2.2 after armor saves. (I skipped the rerolled 1's - which guants get from the talons and potentially mob size, because I didn't give it to the marines, and won't to the orks who would have likely had it - it turns out to be about 1/2-3/4 of a wound)
    Receiving 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5.88 Wounds received

    15 Ork Boys Dealing (again splitting points(20) vs base size(10) 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 after armor saves.
    Receiving 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5.88 Wounds received.

    15 Bloodletters (including -Leaper) 1st turn - 33 attacks 22 hits, 18.48 wounds 15.52 after saves -
    6.0984 after saves if we pretend their hellblade isn't a power weapon equivalent which was part of my point about basic assault troops not getting save mod's making close combat not very good.
    Second turn. 16 attacks 10.72 hits, 5.36 wounding rolls, 4.5 after armor saves
    1.7688 if we again pretend they aren't equipped with power sword equivalent weapons AND after the +1A, +1S for "charging" wears off which was also part of my point about Close Combat in general not being good.

    15 battle sisters - no special/heavy weapons Lest someone complain if I use a Space Marine unit everyone is familiar with for a comparison baseline (roughly equal points - shooting doesn't care about base size) gets 15-30 shots depending on rapid fire range.

    15 shots, 10 hits 5 wounding rolls, 1.65 wounds after saves.
    30 shots 20 hits, 10 wounding rolls, 3.3 wounds after saves. - Average 2.475

    And they can do this pretty reliably turn after turn. Close Combat can be assumed to be somewhere between every other turn, and just under every turn. If we assume an every other turn - and a few other things like basic shooty troops should be roughly as effective as basic bashy troops (i.e. Tau might be an exception) - then the bashy troop should be rougly twice as effective in close combat as the shooty is at shooting.

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    RevlidRas wrote:
    At the moment, the basic Sister of Battle statline is Weapon Skill 4+, Ballistic Skill 3+, Strength 3, Toughness 3. These are the same characteristics shared by other "elite human" units like Stormtroopers and Skitarii, which makes sense - after all, Battle Sisters even graduate from the same school system as Militarum Tempestus Scions. Or to put it another way, S3/T3 is the human baseline, exceeded only through heavy bionics, mutations, genetic engineering, etc, which Battle Sisters don't have, while WS4+, BS4+ is the "human soldier" baseline, and only gets an extra pip in either direction from elite training, which Battle Sisters do have.

    However, it results in a dynamic where Battle Sisters are just as good at shooting stuff as (pre-Bolter Drill) Tactical Marines, can directly compete at range with the (heavily-gun-focused) Skitarii Rangers, and are far, far more dangerous at range than the same number of Astra Militarum Infantry. Meanwhile, they're... exactly as good as basic Astra Militarum Infantry in close combat. They're worse than Catachans, in fact, and even worse when Orders are taken into account - but let's set those aside for now.

    This is weird because the Adepta Sororitas are presented to us, in the setting, as fanatical zealots dedicated to purging impurity from the galaxy with blade and flame. The kind of god-bothering whackos who would (and do) charge into combat equipped with nothing but a prayer and a giant chainsword in order to redeem their own perceived sins. So it doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me that a) the rules encourage Battle Sisters to stay at range at all costs because they're useless at close combat, b) the rules suggest Battle Sisters don't focus their training on close combat over ranged weaponry, compared to the special forces-esque Stormtroopers.

    I'd like to see the Battle Sister statline changed to Weapon Skill 3+, Ballistic Skill 4+. At that point, they're still better than basic Astra Militarum Infantry at shooting - but it's their guns that make the difference (and for a baseline human, even one in low-grade power armour, a boltgun has to have one hell of a kick...). But now they're better than Infantry, Stormtroopers, or Skitarii at close combat, because they have that extra pip of Weapon Skill. Granted, this would also need to come with a slight discount, since specialists are always more valuable than generalists, but it certainly seems to fit the fluff better.

    Or just slap Zealot onto all of them, I dunno.

    Thoughts?


    Bloody Rose + dialogus (30pts) +preacher (25) a 15 sister unit attacks with 46 S4 attacks in close combat, fighting twice on a 4+ with a reroll (simalcrum), for 92 S4 attacks before your opponent fights back on the charge. Sisters of battle fight like wyches subtracting combat drugs(-1ws for troops but seraphim etc, celestian squads = chopiness of wyches ) in cc with 3+ save,3/4++ (celestine cathedral) and half/more then half have storm bolters.

    Smash Nun-49 pts, blade of admonition, 2+ reroll hit, S6, 6 attacks with preacher, -3 ap, flat 3 damage, fights twice without cp 55% of the time (diaologus), will kill triple her points in one turn of combat frequently by ko-ing 3-4 ogryn, lopping a DP's head off, killing off close to half a knight if you fight twice etc (12x0.97,divided by three, x0.84,x3=roughly 10)

    Celestine...nuff said



    Need to be better at cc?No I really don't think they do. There generally not good a killing high toughness value targets, but every chaff units excels at killing other chaff, and characters excel at killing midrange bullgryn type stuff and other characters. The brawling niche can easily be answered by adding lib dreads/smash captains, jetbike custodian captains etc etc for a balanced cc army. I do well in tournies with my bloody rose brigade +allies to fill role gaps.

    (edit: idk what you guys are on about one intercessor, 92Ax0.58x0.5x0.33=8.89 wounds dealt with there 75% to fight twice or 4.4 if they fail the 75%), but there your chaff and should be brawling chaff anyway, they kill 22.2 orks for example on the charge. Even then who cares about intercessors, all your chaff need to do is let celestine, smash nun, eviscerater cannoness etc get to them and they will kill them in droves. Its not like wyches, plaugebearers, horrors, hormagaunts, ork boyz etc are killing intercessors in droves either; they dont need to.

    This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 18:21:49


     
       
     
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