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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





What’s the worst stuff that needs fixing. Cover. Armor saves. Charging. Units. Etc. I’m gonna make an improved rule set and post it later
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






Good luck.

The things that are pushing me rapidly away from playing 40K at the moment are:

1) Too many shots/dice rolls. It's absolutely asinine that an Ork can get 6-7 attacks, or that a unit that shoots a ton is allowed to shoot again in certain armies. The idea of a unit putting out 200-300 etc. attacks is....just asinine. It throws away any other consideration in the game. "Oh this guys tough" - "Doesn't matter I'm about to roll 300 dice." This is possibly the most glaring/obnoxious issue for me.

2) The ease with which auras/stratagems/spells make the above even more obnoxious. "Oh, those 300 dice...I'm re-rolling all of them, and doing double damage on 6's...and then rolling bonus dice if I do that....oh and they're buffed to hitting and wounding on 2+", etc.

The absurd level of lethality and comical level of dice rolling all but removes the idea that it's even a game. This all combines into gotcha-hammer, the worst type of gaming. "I ignore the following six rules and I have the following six buffs...so...you might as well take your models off the table".

This, combined with the archaic IGOUGO format just makes for a silly and miserable experience. You can take units and armies that don't do the above....but then you need to find an opponent who's similarly interested in artificially toning down the game.

Now, the above is fine with a lot of people - but they aren't playing a wargaming, they're competing in "a game". The same people who want to carry out a 168 hit combo in Street Fighter and you never get to hit a button etc. A lot of people enjoy the process of finding how to remove any risk/chance from the game. That's fine if that's the style of hobby you enjoy. However, that all trickles down and ruins the narrative elements of the game. It makes it increasingly hard to develop narrative or fun scenarios when someone can do X+Y+Z and obliterate your army.

I'm all about modifying a game to your enjoyment, but I don't think I care enough to bother any more with 40K. I'm to the point where any opponent (and these are my friends) say "Well I have 120 shots...and then I can shoot again"....I just take the unit off the table to end the game quicker. I can't be bothered. Unfortunate, but true.

 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

Fundimentally I think that 40k should be a game about battelines clashing in combat with a bit of shooting beforehand, when at the moment it is a shooting match with a bit of close combat.
So if I were to fix something it would be to change the game's emphasis.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I agree. When you’re rolling hundreds of dice it’s kin of ridiculous. Just change the unit or weapon stats so you don’t have to roll 200 dice to do your damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you want 40k, where it’s in the future and everyone has guns, to place more emphasis on hand to hand combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 21:33:16


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

scale creep and bloat are the biggest problems in 8th to me, we are now at 7th 40k levels of bloat and we are not even half way through the edition (i hope), the game also keeps getting bigger and bigger losing focus on the meat and potatoes that make it good, just look at the complete lack of cover rules, boring statlines etc. for evidence of that.

   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





As above but personally i belive it's more the problem of GW going full "bigger is always better".

In a way you now got more units in a 2000 pts army now then ever.
Stratagems are obnoxious at best (havocs needing to ask to use aa missiles, scusme but why?) to outright asinine (double phases hurray, canceling overwatch or stratagems from your enemy even better, etc.)

The fact that you NEED access to a cheap and usefull troop unit or else your cp's fethed and screw you if your particular army needs massed cp's.....

Cover, no seriously cover is slowed atm.

New weapons/ weapon options that are better for a new unit but you only get limited access in order to create artificial scarcity, thank you gw for beeing a prick.

Rules bloat.
Not only have we no more USR, No now we have 12 times the same similiar rule amongst 100 differing units.
Also you want to play csm? According to gw you don't need the new 2.0 dex just the old dex,
And the faq
And the shadowspear datasheets
And the shadowspear faq
And the Vigilus ablaze book
And the ca.

Especially the ca, because forcing people to pay for what is in essence a balance Patch is good.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I don’t think GW will ever do anything that impairs their ability to sell the maximum amount of models so this rules set I intend on making is just gonna be some house rule thing you and your friends can print off and play with. But GW I think maybe intentionally made it a matter of “I have more of X Y Z unit therefore I win” type of play. They always introduce some new crap like imperial knights that’s overpowered as hell. And the dumb rules down and dumb down tactics so more dumb dumbs can play the game and spend money. I’m very optimistic we can make our own rules that restore the game to what it used to be back in 2nd edition. Much more fun.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






Oh, I don't think anyone disagrees that GW has one goal: more model sales. Hence why you won't get a stunning rule set from GW anytime after 1999 or so. Once they realized how to make money (and this not a criticism) the old guard of geeks making products for fun and a bit of profit disappeared.

You need only look at how many units gain arbitrary bonuses for having 20+ or 30+ models. Because why not get way better when you buy waaay more models? No one is doubting that.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Where to begin...

The game is simply too complex still. I haven't played in quite some time, but the games are still multiple hours long even at the 1500-2k points range. A game that long should be like 3 vs 3 5k+ or something. The rules need to be streamlined where the average point game is in the 1k-1500pt range and about 1 hour or less in length.

On top of that they put in needlessly complicated things like conquest points, battalions, formations, etc. These things don't add enough to the game to warrant their existence in my opinion. The whole magic phase is a travesty. I'd much rather spells just be wargear again.

Then to add insult to injury they've removed the very concept of balance by creating these soup armies. They did this only to sell models and the game has suffered for it.

So yea, if I were trying to make 9th edition I'd remove conquest points, formations, and all of that. Rebalance the game around 1000-1500 points so players are more willing to try new armies out. And try to refocus the game on the traditional turns we had in editions long past.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Elbows wrote:
Good luck.

The things that are pushing me rapidly away from playing 40K at the moment are:

1) Too many shots/dice rolls. It's absolutely asinine that an Ork can get 6-7 attacks, or that a unit that shoots a ton is allowed to shoot again in certain armies. The idea of a unit putting out 200-300 etc. attacks is....just asinine. It throws away any other consideration in the game. "Oh this guys tough" - "Doesn't matter I'm about to roll 300 dice." This is possibly the most glaring/obnoxious issue for me.

2) The ease with which auras/stratagems/spells make the above even more obnoxious. "Oh, those 300 dice...I'm re-rolling all of them, and doing double damage on 6's...and then rolling bonus dice if I do that....oh and they're buffed to hitting and wounding on 2+", etc.

The absurd level of lethality and comical level of dice rolling all but removes the idea that it's even a game. This all combines into gotcha-hammer, the worst type of gaming. "I ignore the following six rules and I have the following six buffs...so...you might as well take your models off the table".

This, combined with the archaic IGOUGO format just makes for a silly and miserable experience. You can take units and armies that don't do the above....but then you need to find an opponent who's similarly interested in artificially toning down the game.

Now, the above is fine with a lot of people - but they aren't playing a wargaming, they're competing in "a game". The same people who want to carry out a 168 hit combo in Street Fighter and you never get to hit a button etc. A lot of people enjoy the process of finding how to remove any risk/chance from the game. That's fine if that's the style of hobby you enjoy. However, that all trickles down and ruins the narrative elements of the game. It makes it increasingly hard to develop narrative or fun scenarios when someone can do X+Y+Z and obliterate your army.

I'm all about modifying a game to your enjoyment, but I don't think I care enough to bother any more with 40K. I'm to the point where any opponent (and these are my friends) say "Well I have 120 shots...and then I can shoot again"....I just take the unit off the table to end the game quicker. I can't be bothered. Unfortunate, but true.


This. So much this....
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






The turn structure. The biggest most fundamental baseline issue with the whole game is the turn structure. Everything else is problems built on that foundation.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






The biggest issue is clearly command points fueling stratagems not being equal access to all armies.

That and some stratagems are just too strong. Shooting twice/fighting twice and moving twice should not exist.
For me those are the biggest issues. I feel like the Igougo nonsense is also a big problem. Will mostly be resolved when just about everyone transitions over to APOC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 22:12:09


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






The core of the issue is that 40k is a CCG with $1000 in "cards" on the table. Movement is barely relevant, terrain is minimized, and the emphasis is on optimizing your math and combos for list construction and then playing your stratagem cards effectively.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





One thing that makes me wanna vomit is the auras given by people like guilleman. Reroll everything you can imagine. And he is hard to kill. So much cheese Strategems and CP could vanish. They should just have army bonus. If you have all fluff list and no soup BS you get your faction bonus. Or just some special rule for certain units. CP farming and strategems are just more cheese.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





the idea behind stratigiums is cool, situational activated abilities with a cost etc. the problem is some strats are a little too situational and others are just "yeah this completely boosts your unit for no real reason" and then you have abilities that are "well we should have just given you this an an innate ability but randomly tied to to stratigiums because.... I dunno we wanna sell more guardsmen"


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Compare stratagems to the 30k equivalent, where instead of CCG buff cards they're actually difficult choices to make. For example, you might get drop pods for every unit (you normally can't take them) but at the cost of not being able to take tanks or anything else that can't be deployed by deep strike. 40k could have had something like that, but instead the only question you have to ask is how many CP farm detachments you want to bring to power your CCG mechanic.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I think the point was made earlier that all these strategems and Auruas and other crap make it so the game becomes about executing super awesome combos and wiping your enemy out in one turn with your +1 attack with five reroll assault guy that teleports in turn one
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Nvs wrote:
Where to begin...

The game is simply too complex still. I haven't played in quite some time, but the games are still multiple hours long even at the 1500-2k points range. A game that long should be like 3 vs 3 5k+ or something. The rules need to be streamlined where the average point game is in the 1k-1500pt range and about 1 hour or less in length.

On top of that they put in needlessly complicated things like conquest points, battalions, formations, etc. These things don't add enough to the game to warrant their existence in my opinion. The whole magic phase is a travesty. I'd much rather spells just be wargear again.

Then to add insult to injury they've removed the very concept of balance by creating these soup armies. They did this only to sell models and the game has suffered for it.

So yea, if I were trying to make 9th edition I'd remove conquest points, formations, and all of that. Rebalance the game around 1000-1500 points so players are more willing to try new armies out. And try to refocus the game on the traditional turns we had in editions long past.


Or its too simple. Pick your poison.
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Nothing about 40k is broken right now.

Not everything is balanced, but nothing is breaking the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 23:08:37


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing about 40k is broken right now.

Not everything is balanced, but nothing is breaking the game.


That's an unconventional point of view, to put it extremely politely.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





He must work for games workshop
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




OH... that's an idea.
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

 Peregrine wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing about 40k is broken right now.

Not everything is balanced, but nothing is breaking the game.


That's an unconventional point of view, to put it extremely politely.


Broken means the rules cease to function and the game cannot be played, or a combination of units is so potent that nothing else can interact with it.

If you're trying to say not fully balanced, that's a different matter entirely.

I'm above hyperbole and absolutes.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ishagu wrote:
Broken means the rules cease to function and the game cannot be played, or a combination of units is so potent that nothing else can interact with it.

If you're trying to say not fully balanced, that's a different matter entirely.

I'm above hyperbole and absolutes.


No, you're being unreasonably literal. A game is broken if it is functioning poorly even if it is not literally impossible to play the game. And 40k is broken. Balance is very poor, and there are fundamental design issues (IGOUGO, poor terrain rules, excessive CCG-like mechanics, etc) that make an exceptionally bad game.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





What’s the solution to igougo
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not fully balanced is a pretty generous term to describe the current (and to be fair past few editions) state of the game. GW is a bit more proactive about fixing some things this editions but the haves and have nots of units and options is still pretty stark this edition and 40k still requires liked minded opponents or one or more players will not get much out of a given game.

I feel that 40ks biggest issue is GW is trying to have a game that can cater both to a small skirmish game and Epic lite and ended up with a rule set that doesn't really do either well. It doesn't have quite enough granularity for a proper skirmish game and yet has way to many trap/meaningless choices to do a large scale battle right either.

We end up with a weird hybrid that needs a ton of house rules/ local customs to fix.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Knights. Because then you have to take into account that knights and grots exists on the same table top...

Breaks the immersion of 40k for me as its used to be about infantry supported by vehicles and champions duking it out in a trench! Titanic things were the stuff of apocalyptic battles.

But that genie is well out of the bottle so no real hope in a fix.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





With balanced rules I think knights and titans could even work in the game. They just have rules that are very bad at scaling
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






The use of D6 instead of D12.

IGOUGO

CP Farming.

Stratagems as a whole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 00:37:28


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTY TWO (142) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Kroem wrote:
Fundimentally I think that 40k should be a game about battelines clashing in combat with a bit of shooting beforehand, when at the moment it is a shooting match with a bit of close combat.
So if I were to fix something it would be to change the game's emphasis.
Agreed here.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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