Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can you defer 1st turn to your opponent in...

1. ITC rules
2. Malestrom Rules
3. Standard Matched play?

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Can you defer 1st turn to your opponent in...

1. ITC rules
2. Malestrom Rules
3. Standard Matched play?

Who gets the first turn is determined in the individual mission rule, there isn't a general rule.

BRB Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

I can't speak of the ITC missions as they are House Rules but I assume they have the same kind of language, allowing the winner of the determination to pick who goes first.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

Then you didn't read the rest if the setup! You now set up all units in one go, not alternating. So the n7mber of units you have has no bearing at all on who goes first.

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

IIRC, and I don't have my copy nearby, so could be wrong, in the CA18 missions who has the most units does not have any bearing on deployment. These missions have one player set up their entire army then the other player sets up their whole army.

Aash wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

IIRC, and I don't have my copy nearby, so could be wrong, in the CA18 missions who has the most units does not have any bearing on deployment. These missions have one player set up their entire army then the other player sets up their whole army.

Yup, so going first theoretically puts you at a big strategic disadvantage as your opponent can base their entire deployment around where you put your units.

Whether or not this is actually worth weathering a turn of fire before acting will depend on the matchup!

Yea, I actually prefer CA2018-style deployment lately, and I'm playing an army with 10 drops in it. I like being able to deploy knowing I have second turn, instead of just hoping my +1 to my roll allows me to win.

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

Because the rest of the deployment changed too. CA17 you alternated deploying units. CA18 is alternating armies.

But that's just for the CA2018 missions though, yes?
Or does that apply to BRB missions?

I might need to pick up CA2018. I can't stand alternating units. Really slows things down

-

 Galef wrote:
But that's just for the CA2018 missions though, yes?
Or does that apply to BRB missions?

I might need to pick up CA2018. I can't stand alternating units. Really slows things down

-

It only applies to the CA2018 missions.

Ah, that explains it. I've been doing BRB missions only. Thanx

-

 Stux wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

IIRC, and I don't have my copy nearby, so could be wrong, in the CA18 missions who has the most units does not have any bearing on deployment. These missions have one player set up their entire army then the other player sets up their whole army.

Yup, so going first theoretically puts you at a big strategic disadvantage as your opponent can base their entire deployment around where you put your units.

Whether or not this is actually worth weathering a turn of fire before acting will depend on the matchup!

Also note that in CA2018 the player going second gets to pick the deployment zone, on top of some missions being biased towards the player going second. In our games this has done wonders to offset the ability to get in an alpha strike.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

IIRC, and I don't have my copy nearby, so could be wrong, in the CA18 missions who has the most units does not have any bearing on deployment. These missions have one player set up their entire army then the other player sets up their whole army.

Yup, so going first theoretically puts you at a big strategic disadvantage as your opponent can base their entire deployment around where you put your units.

Whether or not this is actually worth weathering a turn of fire before acting will depend on the matchup!

Also note that in CA2018 the player going second gets to pick the deployment zone, on top of some missions being biased towards the player going second. In our games this has done wonders to offset the ability to get in an alpha strike.

How my group plays it, as we think the RAW is, isn't quite like that Jidmah but it is how we initially played it before looking closely at the wording. I think that no one ever chooses which map they want to play but they instead are the player who randomly determines which map it will be.

The CA18 (matched play) missions wording is "the players roll off and the winner determines which of the standard deployment maps is used in the battle (see the Warhammer 40000 rulebook) and picks one of the deployment zones for their army", the rulebook page 216 says "when playing matched play missions, you must randomly select one of these deployment maps. To do so, one of the players simply rolls a D6... The mission will typically say which player makes this roll". After that the player who didn't choose their deployment zone then deploys their whole army and chooses who takes the first turn. If the player who decides who takes the first turn elects to go second, they don't get a chance to seize the initiative.

 Galef wrote:
Ah, that explains it. I've been doing BRB missions only. Thanx

-

remember that ITC changed as well. mission 2, 4, 6 are CA2018 deployment rules

 zedsdead wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Ah, that explains it. I've been doing BRB missions only. Thanx

-

remember that ITC changed as well. mission 2, 4, 6 are CA2018 deployment rules

Quite a few ITC events (even GT's) are still using the old 2017 style of deployment though... so check with the tournament organizer!

xlDuke wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA17 Missions: "The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to their result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn."
CA18 Missions: "The player who finished setting up their army first chooses who takes the first turn."

REALLY? Why did that change? The roll off was so much better than "bring less units to guarantee first turn". I totally missed that in CA2018. Been rolling off this whole time (admittedly only played games at home recently)

-

IIRC, and I don't have my copy nearby, so could be wrong, in the CA18 missions who has the most units does not have any bearing on deployment. These missions have one player set up their entire army then the other player sets up their whole army.

Yup, so going first theoretically puts you at a big strategic disadvantage as your opponent can base their entire deployment around where you put your units.

Whether or not this is actually worth weathering a turn of fire before acting will depend on the matchup!

Also note that in CA2018 the player going second gets to pick the deployment zone, on top of some missions being biased towards the player going second. In our games this has done wonders to offset the ability to get in an alpha strike.

How my group plays it, as we think the RAW is, isn't quite like that Jidmah but it is how we initially played it before looking closely at the wording. I think that no one ever chooses which map they want to play but they instead are the player who randomly determines which map it will be.

The CA18 (matched play) missions wording is "the players roll off and the winner determines which of the standard deployment maps is used in the battle (see the Warhammer 40000 rulebook) and picks one of the deployment zones for their army", the rulebook page 216 says "when playing matched play missions, you must randomly select one of these deployment maps. To do so, one of the players simply rolls a D6... The mission will typically say which player makes this roll". After that the player who didn't choose their deployment zone then deploys their whole army and chooses who takes the first turn. If the player who decides who takes the first turn elects to go second, they don't get a chance to seize the initiative.

I wrote deployment zone - which is basically which side you are deploying on. This usually allows you to pick the best place for your army or specific ruins/chokepoints to your enemy.

You're right, it was a complete misunderstanding on my part!

I'm glad sometimes I ask questions that I figured I'm going to get flamed on about because they seem obvious (especially if researched the whole thing, but I didn't because I don't have access to some of it). This was a good discussion, and I learned a lot.. thank you everyone who participated.