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2019/07/01 22:31:02
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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Couple of questions on this chap, I have this feeling to take 3 you need 3 other hs choices or is this old edition memories? And since in the faq makes them have the helbrute kw can they use the stand still and fire twice strat? I think this isn't allowed but I read both fw and csm faqs and didn't see this being stopped?
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2019/07/01 22:36:44
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Norn Queen
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 Latro_ wrote:Couple of questions on this chap, I have this feeling to take 3 you need 3 other hs choices or is this old edition memories? And since in the faq makes them have the helbrute kw can they use the stand still and fire twice strat? I think this isn't allowed but I read both fw and csm faqs and didn't see this being stopped?
Unlike the Imperial equivalents, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnoughts do not have a Relic stipulation. The Fire Frenzy stratagem says "Helbrute", not " HELBRUTE", so you cannot use the stratagem on a Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought as it is not a Helbrute. There is nothing in the FAQs about it because that's simply how the rules work.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 22:38:41
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2019/07/01 22:38:39
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Lieutenant General
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Latro_ wrote: And since in the faq makes them have the helbrute kw can they use the stand still and fire twice strat? I think this isn't allowed but I read both fw and csm faqs and didn't see this being stopped?
From the 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem on page 166 of Codex Space Marines:: Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, just before a Helbrute shoots.
The stratagem is referring to the unit with the name 'Helbrute', not a unit with the HELBRUTE keyword.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 22:39:08
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2019/07/02 00:03:40
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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Ah ofc it's a helbrute not the kw yadda. Cheers! Wow chaos have something over the imps... surely not.
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2019/07/02 03:31:08
Subject: Re:Hellforged deredeo
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Right, you read the FW FAQs. This is from index forces of chaos update 1.4. It was already there in 1.3 or 1.2.
Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 03:32:52
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2019/07/02 08:31:46
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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Cool and since they have the helbrute keyword they do get traits though right? Like imperial leviathans get chapter tactics
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 08:32:19
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2019/07/02 09:03:24
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Norn Queen
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Latro_ wrote:Cool and since they have the helbrute keyword they do get traits though right? Like imperial leviathans get chapter tactics
Correct. Legion Traits affect HELBRUTE, not Helbrute.
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2019/10/05 15:39:55
Subject: Re:Hellforged deredeo
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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 p5freak wrote:Right, you read the FW FAQs. This is from index forces of chaos update 1.4. It was already there in 1.3 or 1.2.
Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
Looks like 1.5 update this restriction was removed... at least I didn't see it.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_chaos-1.pdf
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2019/10/05 16:08:13
Subject: Re:Hellforged deredeo
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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In theory, FAQs are just providing a clarifying answer to a question players frequently pose. Take away the question, and the answer should remain the same. They still can't use Fire Frenzy because they still aren't units named 'Helbrute' (or 'Helbrutes'?).
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2019/10/05 16:46:44
Subject: Re:Hellforged deredeo
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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 Kriswall wrote:
In theory, FAQs are just providing a clarifying answer to a question players frequently pose. Take away the question, and the answer should remain the same. They still can't use Fire Frenzy because they still aren't units named 'Helbrute' (or 'Helbrutes'?).
Actually they added the keyword. I was just hoping I missed the specific restriction.
"Pages 12, 20 and 22 – Hellforged Contemptor
Dreadnought, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought and
Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
Add ‘Helbrute’ to the Keywords line of all
these datasheets."
So it appears they can unfortunatly use the strategem
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2019/10/05 16:59:37
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
That's still in there, guys.
And the Stratagem doesn't refer to the keyword, so assigning that keyword to the FW dreadnoughts does nothing for Fire Frenzy.
Nothing has changed, no need to dig up old threads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/05 17:01:05
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2019/10/05 17:48:02
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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nekooni wrote:Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
That's still in there, guys.
And the Stratagem doesn't refer to the keyword, so assigning that keyword to the FW dreadnoughts does nothing for Fire Frenzy.
Nothing has changed, no need to dig up old threads.
Oh... there'a a page 4.... son of a gun... it didn't print with the rest.
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2019/10/05 18:40:39
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Lieutenant General
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 Sazzlefrats wrote:nekooni wrote:Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
That's still in there, guys.
And the Stratagem doesn't refer to the keyword, so assigning that keyword to the FW dreadnoughts does nothing for Fire Frenzy.
Nothing has changed, no need to dig up old threads.
Oh... there'a a page 4.... son of a gun... it didn't print with the rest.
Even with the addition of the keyword (which was added back in 2017 in the first FAQ) it still wouldn't have worked since it the stratagem was ooking for a specific unit name, not a keyword.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2019/10/07 18:08:57
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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 Ghaz wrote: Sazzlefrats wrote:nekooni wrote:Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
That's still in there, guys.
And the Stratagem doesn't refer to the keyword, so assigning that keyword to the FW dreadnoughts does nothing for Fire Frenzy.
Nothing has changed, no need to dig up old threads.
Oh... there'a a page 4.... son of a gun... it didn't print with the rest.
Even with the addition of the keyword (which was added back in 2017 in the first FAQ) it still wouldn't have worked since it the stratagem was ooking for a specific unit name, not a keyword.
I guess you can say that since Helbrut is capitalized in the stratagem that it must referring to the name of the unit and not otherwise, however that's American English logic. For all we know in British English, its just adding emphasis and could be referring to any mention of Helbrute in a units entry, or just bad writing. Thankfully there is another entry that's super clear and denies use of the stratagem.
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2019/10/07 18:38:25
Subject: Re:Hellforged deredeo
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Lieutenant General
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From page 175 of the Main Rulebook:
All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models that have a specific keyword. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘all ADEPTUS ASTARTES models’. This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword on their datasheet.
The rules are well defined as to what is a keyword and what is not. HELBRUTE is a keyword whereas 'Helbrute' is not.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2019/10/07 20:03:23
Subject: Hellforged deredeo
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Sazzlefrats wrote: Ghaz wrote: Sazzlefrats wrote:nekooni wrote:Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
That's still in there, guys.
And the Stratagem doesn't refer to the keyword, so assigning that keyword to the FW dreadnoughts does nothing for Fire Frenzy.
Nothing has changed, no need to dig up old threads.
Oh... there'a a page 4.... son of a gun... it didn't print with the rest.
Even with the addition of the keyword (which was added back in 2017 in the first FAQ) it still wouldn't have worked since it the stratagem was ooking for a specific unit name, not a keyword.
I guess you can say that since Helbrut is capitalized in the stratagem that it must referring to the name of the unit and not otherwise, however that's American English logic. For all we know in British English, its just adding emphasis and could be referring to any mention of Helbrute in a units entry, or just bad writing. Thankfully there is another entry that's super clear and denies use of the stratagem.
There's no British/American language thing happening, that's nonsense.
When a word is capitalised in the way of a keyword then it means a keyword. When a unit is otherwise named then it means that specific datasheet.
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