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Been reading a lot lately (and some of it fairly convincing) that GW have effectively given up on the Oldmarines line.
Like completely.

Does this mean in the future their rules will be completely gone or will they be moved to some sort of Index only type rules?

Didnt something similar happen to Tomb kings and Brets in AoS? (zero new kits but still playable with index rules?).

Finally this makes me sad. I grew up on Oldmarines and still love their aesthetic

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What can you sell to a SM player who has everything...?

If the newer units are easier to load out and understand for a new player, they'll sell more of them. Especially if they are more powerful than the older models.

Old kits were kitbashed to fill in for the missing models (bosses on bikes, etc). Take away stuff like bikes, and the need to cater for these options goes away. Fewer shelves needed to hold the full range. More space for FotM.

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in X years yes, SM will be nothing but primaris and old sm will moust likely be given the legacy treatment: open play only army with rules in index.




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They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 14:05:23


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 Ratius wrote:
Been reading a lot lately (and some of it fairly convincing) that GW have effectively given up on the Oldmarines line.
Like completely.

Does this mean in the future their rules will be completely gone or will they be moved to some sort of Index only type rules?

Didnt something similar happen to Tomb kings and Brets in AoS? (zero new kits but still playable with index rules?).

Finally this makes me sad. I grew up on Oldmarines and still love their aesthetic
They're still in the codex, and you can still buy boxes online, but do not expect any new models.

Updated versions of old characters will be Marines who've gone through the Rubicon Primaris, and with new moulding/sculpting technology, you can expect non-Primaris to be stealthily updated to a less "heroic" scale across the range – the new Chaos Space Marines, for example.

The sheer number of existing Space Marine armies means it's not really plausible for the rules to be completely phased out even as old boxes go out of production, but the moving timeline means that Oldmarines can be steadily made less common and relevant across the galaxy – by 9th edition, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see Oldmarines reduced to an Index option, perhaps with Non-Primaris Veterans staying in the codex to represent those grizzled warriors who refuse/can't be upgraded.

It's a slower, gentler death than Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, who aren't even available as models or acknowledged in the fluff. By the point the End Times rolled around in 2014, Bretonnia had been effectively dead for over 10 years, with no new models or rules, but it was particularly sad for Tomb Kings. They'd only just received their first update since 2003, with some gorgeous and relatively new kits – Tomb Guard, Sepulchral Stalkers, and the Necrosphynx – that could have been easily folded right into the current Grand Alliance: Death gameline, even under new names and witness protection identities for the new factions. Instead they just got unpersoned entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 21:45:45


 
   
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From the fluff point of view, the old Tacticals are a reminiscence of the dark age, while the Primaris Marines embody the renaissance.

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Oldmarines will be squatted both in fluff and in rules.

9th edition will relegate Oldmarine vehicles and infantry to index status and Primaris will get replacements for Terminators, Predator and Stormraven.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 14:17:55


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Pretty sure Oldmarines have received new models more recently than plenty of other factions - the new Devastator squad from 2 years ago or so, for example.

When did, say, Dark Eldar get any new models? Voidraven / Archon / Succubus in, what, 2014?

Space Marines have the biggest codex and range of models, and they're probably more up to date than any other faction barring those only created in the last few years like GSC.
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines will be squatted both in fluff and in rules.

9th edition will relegate Oldmarine vehicles and infantry to index status and Primaris will get replacements for Terminators, Predator and Stormraven.


I doubt they will ever be squated in the fluff they will for sure be less and less relevant, but W authors cannot help but put throwback references and I imagine GW will keep some characters standard marines (heck drednaught ones have to stay in thier dreadnaught).

Also I doubt GW will be bold enough to give space marines the index only treatment in 9th editions. If they are smart it will be done over several editions. in 9th you will have some units be index only, say the ironclad and venerabel dreds, scout bikers, sternguard and a few lesser used and/or units with older kits. tac squads, captains, predators, razerbacks, rhinos etc make it into the 9th edition codex imp. Then in 10th they likely index most of the classic units but keep a handful of relevant primary units IE tacticals, captains, terminator squads (probably mixed weapons at that point) and basically 1 classic option per slot. Then by 11th and onward index only.

at that point they can say they kept the classic marine alive for more than a decade after primaris introduction and make them index only (and point them out of competative play so really only fluffbunnies in open play use them). I so hope 30k remains a thing though for them as mayeb classic marines players not wanting to give up on the old models have a game.

GW isn't stupid and they know they need to handle phasing out of the old posterboy faction for the new posterboy faction will have to be eased into

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW isn't stupid and they know they need to handle phasing out of the old posterboy faction for the new posterboy faction will have to be eased into
Agreed. It looks to me like their strategy is to just not make any new Oldmarine units or rules and just let the players decided when they get phased out.
If people keep buying OldMarine kits, GW will keep selling them alongside Primaris stuff. But I suspect once the sales of the Old Marine stuff drops to a certain low point, they'll start phasing them out and be fully justified in doing so since the players "voted with their wallets"
By that time, most players will have come to accept it and the backlash will be minimal, if any

It's smart, but also annoying for those of us that just want the Band-Aid ripped off already

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 15:25:06


   
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This is all speculation of course. For all we know GW could plan to keep marines and primaris together indefinetly.

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 Stormonu wrote:
They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.


Oh, they haven't abandoned them at all. They received tons of support in Vigilus Defiant and will continue to be supported into the next decade at least. I would be very surprised if they became an index army any time soon.

But new units are very unlikely. New sculpts will continue to be very limited and special, a la FW or Heroes line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 16:51:01


 
   
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Lemondish wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.


Oh, they haven't abandoned them at all. They received tons of support in Vigilus Defiant and will continue to be supported into the next decade at least.

But new units are very unlikely. New sculpts will continue to be very limited and special, a la FW or Heroes line.


This is my view basically.

We do this thread every month or so, but there's no new information. Again.

This will probably go to 10+ pages around the same arguments again, but ultimately we don't know what GW are planning. And even if we did, they might change their mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 16:51:32


 
   
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Gitdakka wrote:
This is all speculation of course. For all we know GW could plan to keep marines and primaris together indefinetly.


Don't kid yourself or anyone else. Old Marines were doomed from the release of Dark Imperium. Every single new release has cemented that fact. Why can't old and new share transports? Huh? Because they don't want to keep selling the old kits. They want Marine players to have to re-buy EVERYTHING. They don't want to see old Marines around anymore. But they at least realise there would be riots if they just cut off old Marines could turkey. They know people have giant armies of old Marines. So of course they give us Apoc rules because they have to. People don't own enough Primaris and Primaris don't even have a full model line yet to just put them in.

Even the new 40k novels are planting that seed that small Marines are old news and outdated.

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The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.


This is exactly the problem though. Too many people have a Marine army and aren't buying "****" for it any more. That's the huge incentive GW has for making your army obsolete.

Doing it too quickly pisses too many people off of course. So slowly slowly they go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 17:13:08


 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.


don't even have to run them as chaos, just renegade marines, I honestly have a theory on how GW is going to pull this off next editions. I think we are going to have a schism between some chapters that accept primaris and the ones that do not (already hinted at in books). I think GW is going to split the books in 9th into primaris marines and spce marines and the classic chapters (liek ultramarines, white scars etc) will be primaris, btu they will have a "codex adeptus astartes: for normal space marine units and split the 2. its one of 2 ways I see it going splitting or indexing over a few editions. I doubt GW will immediatly drop marines, but I also don't think they will have any more kits than most xenos armies get aka occational resculpts but rarely if ever new units

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 Stux wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.


This is exactly the problem though. Too many people have a Marine army and aren't buying "****" for it any more. That's the huge incentive GW has for making your army obsolete.

Doing it too quickly pisses too many people off of course. So slowly slowly they go.

No, no. You don't understand. I'm STILL buying stuff for it! I bought four more Tactical Squad boxes in the last few months. I'd like to buy two more Land Raiders. I'm also planning on picking up some of those Space Wolf flyers to do some Storm Raven conversions. I'd like to fill out my Attack Bikes a bit, get some Hunters/Stalkers. After that I'd buy more Assault Marines just because I think they're cool. More Devastators would help me fill out my Heavy Weapons for the Tacs I just bought, etc.

It's not like I'm "done". If they keep supporting it, I'll keep adding for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

don't even have to run them as chaos, just renegade marines, I honestly have a theory on how GW is going to pull this off next editions. I think we are going to have a schism between some chapters that accept primaris and the ones that do not (already hinted at in books). I think GW is going to split the books in 9th into primaris marines and spce marines and the classic chapters (liek ultramarines, white scars etc) will be primaris, btu they will have a "codex adeptus astartes: for normal space marine units and split the 2. its one of 2 ways I see it going splitting or indexing over a few editions. I doubt GW will immediatly drop marines, but I also don't think they will have any more kits than most xenos armies get aka occational resculpts but rarely if ever new units


Literally ANY excuse to keep playing my Old/Real/Truemarines will be fine by me. Just the basics is all I need. Tacs, Assaults, Devs, Vets, Terminators, Rhino Chassis Variants (just the basics is fine), Land Raiders, Captain, Chaplain, Techmarine, Librarian, Boxnaught.

They can be renegade, they can be a separate rapid-strike arm (because Primaris don't have Pods, apparently), they can be applicants incompatible with the Primaris-geneseed, whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 17:38:35


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Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!
   
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The "oldmarine" line is over 100 kits. They could shrink that down to 10-ish, and keep them around, if they were trying to cut down on the logistics.

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If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

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 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!


I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!


I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.


I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.
   
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If I had to bet which one will leave 40k first: non-Primaris marines or any typical player gaming currently. I would bet on the player leaving the 40k before non-Primaris marines do.

I am not taking about new players either just the current group of people playing now. The bet gets much tougher if it were any given Dakka poster since, by being a member here, chances are they are more dedicated to miniatures war gaming than most. Even then, I don't think it is automatically either side.

I do figure that non-Primaris marines will eventually be taken to Mount Aarat and all die in glorious combat. At the same time, I don't see that happening any sooner than half-a-decade from now. Games Workshop has gone out of their way to prevent Primaris and non-Primaris marines having the exact overlap even for what seems like the same role. Primaris seem to exist in the small margins of the non-Primaris line always doing things differently than the non-Primaris. Frustratingly so as someone building a Primaris only army. Good example is Terminators, Aggressors and Centurions which all kinda function the same but are just different enough that you are getting something different depending on your choice and don't fill the role quite the same.


   
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 Stux wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!


I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.


I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

If I were to be honest, I'd admit to having already "bought" a new army. When I saw Primaris marines, I collected a Tyranid army. My chief interest in playing 40K remains heading out to the club and getting a pick up game with the locals in whatever the current edition is. I'd much rather collect a new faction than replace my marines. So Nids out of spite (because Warriors tower over Primaris). I got some Eldar around, too. When I'm really looking to be spiteful against Primaris, I'll start playing Eldar seriously

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Hopefully. They're ugly.

Now if only every primaris release wasn't terrible until 3 rounds of CA points drops.

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 Stux wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!


I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.


I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.


I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

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