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Tried Apocalypse today for the first time and it's easily my favourite GW system alongside LotR. Plays very cleanly. It can be a tad swingy but the cards add an extra level of flavour and strategy I miss in regular 40k.

I was wondering if anyone had any experience and was aware of any balance issues/overpowered/underpowered units, armies or cards to avoid any potential issues.

It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

Sure, if you are one of those people that reads the rules, plays a few games and checks other peoples experience for confirmation.

This is Dakka Dakka where we have players are so good they can find the flaws from a few blurry pics of the rule book and a few teasers. I am sure they will be along shortly to point out flaws without even seeing all the rules. Let alone actually playing a few games.

I would assume much the same as in 40k.
You don't have command point spam, but you do have similar issues;

A big knight detachment (to give maximum punch to 'every unit in a detachment' type cards) and several minimum sized guard battalions with officers leading them (to give you the rate-of-card-draw to reliably get the asset cards you need) means that something not a million miles from loyal 32 + knights is still likely to be a thing.

IMO the balance issue is the card system itself. Just looking at IG cards there are a couple different ones that effectively say "your whole detachment shoots twice", and it's complete RNG whether you get them. If you want balance you're probably better off removing the card mechanic entirely.

Needless to say there are also tons of unit balance issues where GW doesn't seem to understand how basic math works. For example, a LRBT's battle cannon is one shot at 6+/6+ with 72" range. A LR Executioner's plasma cannon is one shot at 7+/7+ with 72" range, or you can overload and risk killing your own unit to make it 6+/6+. IOW, for the same price as the LR Executioner you can have a LRBT that has the same firepower with double the range and no risk of damaging your own unit. But are these catastrophic issues? Probably not, as long as you don't insist on WYSIWYG. Everyone will just use the best option and ignore the redundant ones, and most of the IG balance issues seem to be cases where the best option is reasonable and the issue is that the bad options are unplayable.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

Sure, if you are one of those people that reads the rules, plays a few games and checks other peoples experience for confirmation.

This is Dakka Dakka where we have players are so good they can find the flaws from a few blurry pics of the rule book and a few teasers. I am sure they will be along shortly to point out flaws without even seeing all the rules. Let alone actually playing a few games.

You know the game is out, right? And that some of us have all of the rules right here, no blurry pictures needed?

Hey, I have read through the cards and most of the rules, seems so far that everything is well balanced. The only thing that needs some careful planning is the command radius, units seem very vulnerable once out of 12" from commander.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

Sure, if you are one of those people that reads the rules, plays a few games and checks other peoples experience for confirmation.

This is Dakka Dakka where we have players are so good they can find the flaws from a few blurry pics of the rule book and a few teasers. I am sure they will be along shortly to point out flaws without even seeing all the rules. Let alone actually playing a few games.

You know the game is out, right? And that some of us have all of the rules right here, no blurry pictures needed?

He's being sarcastic about some of the posters on Dakkadakka who seem to have all the answers on whats trash or not even after a five minute glance, not being literal about the rules.

Peregrine wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

Sure, if you are one of those people that reads the rules, plays a few games and checks other peoples experience for confirmation.

This is Dakka Dakka where we have players are so good they can find the flaws from a few blurry pics of the rule book and a few teasers. I am sure they will be along shortly to point out flaws without even seeing all the rules. Let alone actually playing a few games.

You know the game is out, right? And that some of us have all of the rules right here, no blurry pictures needed?

I am aware.

ZebioLizard2 wrote: He's being sarcastic about some of the posters on Dakkadakka who seem to have all the answers on whats trash or not even after a five minute glance, not being literal about the rules.

Thank you.

My first game was a crap fest.

The cards are way unbalanced. Like...You shouldn't be high when you write rules.

"Go to ground" is the most busted card. Double the dice rolls for your saves for an infantry unit. When played on Terminators. You basically are getting a 2+ invulnerable save.

I could go on and on about stupid stuff that I saw but that would be a waste of time. You could honestly have a lot of fun in the game if you just removed the cards all together but with cards included the game is pretty terrible.

Its mostly a one time use card. Go to ground doesnt even impact an entire detachment. Its just one unit.

The smallest recommended game would have a unit of terminators being a pretty tiny part of your force.

Being able to go to ground probably once in the game for just 1 turn, if you have that card at that point is hardly game breaking in the slightest.

 Lance845 wrote:
Its mostly a one time use card. Go to ground doesnt even impact an entire detachment. Its just one unit.

The lethality of the game is quite low compared to 40k. Played 400 PL vs 400 PL and I was only able to get major damage on 4 total units. One was a large unit on terminators directly in front of my lines. It had 10 large blasts on it. Without a huge amount of luck with 4+ saves and an automatic wound from morale. They should be dead. They have to be dead or I lose the game because I cant get out of my deployment zone. It was basically the firepower of 2 entire detachments that put those wounds there. It most certainly affected more than one detachment. You realize by defending this card you are defending a 2++ save right? Because that's what it can do.


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puree wrote:
The smallest recommended game would have a unit of terminators being a pretty tiny part of your force.

Being able to go to ground probably once in the game for just 1 turn, if you have that card at that point is hardly game breaking in the slightest.

Read the above. It is beyond broken. Once per game matters not in the slightest. There are more broken cards too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Its mostly a one time use card. Go to ground doesnt even impact an entire detachment. Its just one unit.

The lethality of the game is quite low compared to 40k. Played 400 PL vs 400 PL and I was only able to get major damage on 4 total units. One was a large unit on terminators directly in front of my lines. It had 10 large blasts on it. Without a huge amount of luck with 4+ saves and an automatic wound from morale. They should be dead. They have to be dead or I lose the game because I cant get out of my deployment zone. It was basically the firepower of 2 entire detachments that put those wounds there. It most certainly affected more than one detachment. You realize by defending this card you are defending a 2++ save right? Because that's what it can do.


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puree wrote:
The smallest recommended game would have a unit of terminators being a pretty tiny part of your force.

Being able to go to ground probably once in the game for just 1 turn, if you have that card at that point is hardly game breaking in the slightest.

Read the above. It is beyond broken. Once per game matters not in the slightest. There are more broken cards too.

The card is completely fine given you will see it once a game on one total unit. You also feature this card in your deck as well so what exactly are you on about?

The cards are dynamic, maybe too strong however over the weekend I played or taught seven games with a variety of skilled players. Cards were helpful but no game were won by cards.

One turn unharmed terminator unit is easily moved away from the next turn or moved around or any number of things. Trying to frame an answer as you have to 'defend' something proves you need a nap.

 lazarian wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Its mostly a one time use card. Go to ground doesnt even impact an entire detachment. Its just one unit.

The lethality of the game is quite low compared to 40k. Played 400 PL vs 400 PL and I was only able to get major damage on 4 total units. One was a large unit on terminators directly in front of my lines. It had 10 large blasts on it. Without a huge amount of luck with 4+ saves and an automatic wound from morale. They should be dead. They have to be dead or I lose the game because I cant get out of my deployment zone. It was basically the firepower of 2 entire detachments that put those wounds there. It most certainly affected more than one detachment. You realize by defending this card you are defending a 2++ save right? Because that's what it can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puree wrote:
The smallest recommended game would have a unit of terminators being a pretty tiny part of your force.

Being able to go to ground probably once in the game for just 1 turn, if you have that card at that point is hardly game breaking in the slightest.

Read the above. It is beyond broken. Once per game matters not in the slightest. There are more broken cards too.

The card is completely fine given you will see it once a game on one total unit. You also feature this card in your deck as well so what exactly are you on about?

The cards are dynamic, maybe too strong however over the weekend I played or taught seven games with a variety of skilled players. Cards were helpful but no game were won by cards.

One turn unharmed terminator unit is easily moved away from the next turn or moved around or any number of things. Trying to frame an answer as you have to 'defend' something proves you need a nap.

Clearly playing a different game if your games were not determined by cards. I literally just described a card which essentially makes a unit invulnerable. After you decide to put 1/4 of your armies shooting into it. Sorry...that wins games. At the very least this card needs to be played during the action phase when they are targeted for an attack. To be played in the damage phase is HAHA - this unit that should be dead due to overkill - nope - it lives.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Its mostly a one time use card. Go to ground doesnt even impact an entire detachment. Its just one unit.

The lethality of the game is quite low compared to 40k. Played 400 PL vs 400 PL and I was only able to get major damage on 4 total units. One was a large unit on terminators directly in front of my lines. It had 10 large blasts on it. Without a huge amount of luck with 4+ saves and an automatic wound from morale. They should be dead. They have to be dead or I lose the game because I cant get out of my deployment zone. It was basically the firepower of 2 entire detachments that put those wounds there. It most certainly affected more than one detachment. You realize by defending this card you are defending a 2++ save right? Because that's what it can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puree wrote:
The smallest recommended game would have a unit of terminators being a pretty tiny part of your force.

Being able to go to ground probably once in the game for just 1 turn, if you have that card at that point is hardly game breaking in the slightest.

Read the above. It is beyond broken. Once per game matters not in the slightest. There are more broken cards too.

honestly, if terminators where hard to kill I don;t see that as being a negative. what kind of firepower where you throwing at them? simply tons of small arms, or where you dropping large amounts of dedicated tank weapons on them?

The card in question also came up in this exact circumstance in a game we had this weekend (we played seven games). The result was the terminators lived another turn before getting demolished by Tau who were simply far faster than them. The damage they do is middling and they are expensive for a variety of reasons.

You have this card in your deck as well, while it could win you the game, durability on one light infantry squad with pedestrian shooting or fair melee coupled with terrible movement after the drop isn't impressive.

TH/SS termies have a 3+ save, they will regularly make that save against large blast markers in any event, even with massive shooting. It sounds like you made no effort to spread your shooting or made reasonable accommodations to figure out a plan B if they survived.

Something doesn't add up given you have the exact same tools in your army. What were you playing that couldn't handle a second round of a unit who pays a ton of points for deep strike?

I have the card in my deck. I put it in there in the hope that it worked out to saving my Swarmlords ass at some point.

There is a huge difference between a 2++ in 40k where it's constant and a 2++ in one turn because of a one off card. I am fine with a card granting a single unit a "essentially" 2++. But that is not equatable to what you are comparing it to.

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO the balance issue is the card system itself. Just looking at IG cards there are a couple different ones that effectively say "your whole detachment shoots twice", and it's complete RNG whether you get them. If you want balance you're probably better off removing the card mechanic entirely.

Needless to say there are also tons of unit balance issues where GW doesn't seem to understand how basic math works. For example, a LRBT's battle cannon is one shot at 6+/6+ with 72" range. A LR Executioner's plasma cannon is one shot at 7+/7+ with 72" range, or you can overload and risk killing your own unit to make it 6+/6+. IOW, for the same price as the LR Executioner you can have a LRBT that has the same firepower with double the range and no risk of damaging your own unit. But are these catastrophic issues? Probably not, as long as you don't insist on WYSIWYG. Everyone will just use the best option and ignore the redundant ones, and most of the IG balance issues seem to be cases where the best option is reasonable and the issue is that the bad options are unplayable.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's going to take awhile to figure those things out.

Sure, if you are one of those people that reads the rules, plays a few games and checks other peoples experience for confirmation.

This is Dakka Dakka where we have players are so good they can find the flaws from a few blurry pics of the rule book and a few teasers. I am sure they will be along shortly to point out flaws without even seeing all the rules. Let alone actually playing a few games.

You know the game is out, right? And that some of us have all of the rules right here, no blurry pictures needed?

Which assets are those? From our local reading first rank fire second rank fire only lets you change an order to shooting in case you made a mistake.

I didn't see anything like that.

 Lance845 wrote:
I have the card in my deck. I put it in there in the hope that it worked out to saving my Swarmlords ass at some point.

There is a huge difference between a 2++ in 40k where it's constant and a 2++ in one turn because of a one off card. I am fine with a card granting a single unit a "essentially" 2++. But that is not equatable to what you are comparing it to.

No - it's a lot better. A 2++ when you thought they had a 4++. You'd simply ignore a 2++ because it's impossible to kill. Since it happens in the damage phase - you waste firepower. There are also mortal wounds in 40k. I CAN NOT believe people are actually defending this. Whatever. Defend 2++ all you want - I am out.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Which assets are those?

Two obvious ones:

"Gunners, kill on sight!" allows three LRBTs to take a free shooting action after they finish their normal activation, which of course benefits from the shoot twice buff for not moving over half speed. Not quite a full detachment (I misread this initially), but pretty significant. And in a normal 40k game that's broken as hell.

Industrial Efficiency (Armageddon) gives every unit in the detachment the rapid fire rule for all of their weapons. With IG having plenty of tank guns with extremely long range this effectively doubles the firepower of a tank detachment.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
No - it's a lot better. A 2++ when you thought they had a 4++. You'd simply ignore a 2++ because it's impossible to kill. Since it happens in the damage phase - you waste firepower. There are also mortal wounds in 40k. I CAN NOT believe people are actually defending this. Whatever. Defend 2++ all you want - I am out.

You don't know the particular unit, but you do know that the card exists and you can spread out your fire to make it inefficient. Single-unit stratagems just aren't that impressive, especially when they only apply to infantry units. The real game-breaking stuff is the ones that apply to tons of units at once. Even if it literally said "remove all blast markers from a single infantry unit" it would still be underwhelming compared to an IG player getting to shoot twice with dozens of artillery tanks.

Go to Ground is not that good in a game where focus fire is bad math wise.
If your opponent managed to put you in a situation where you were forced to focus fire a light infantry unit and he had that card, then it was a good play on his part.

There is also (I believe) pretty near universal access to "counterspell" cards in apoc. Not a thing with stratagems in 8th. Something to consider.

So its magic the gathering...not apoc.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Which assets are those?

Two obvious ones:

"Gunners, kill on sight!" allows three LRBTs to take a free shooting action after they finish their normal activation, which of course benefits from the shoot twice buff for not moving over half speed. Not quite a full detachment (I misread this initially), but pretty significant. And in a normal 40k game that's broken as hell.

Industrial Efficiency (Armageddon) gives every unit in the detachment the rapid fire rule for all of their weapons. With IG having plenty of tank guns with extremely long range this effectively doubles the firepower of a tank detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - it's a lot better. A 2++ when you thought they had a 4++. You'd simply ignore a 2++ because it's impossible to kill. Since it happens in the damage phase - you waste firepower. There are also mortal wounds in 40k. I CAN NOT believe people are actually defending this. Whatever. Defend 2++ all you want - I am out.

You don't know the particular unit, but you do know that the card exists and you can spread out your fire to make it inefficient. Single-unit stratagems just aren't that impressive, especially when they only apply to infantry units. The real game-breaking stuff is the ones that apply to tons of units at once. Even if it literally said "remove all blast markers from a single infantry unit" it would still be underwhelming compared to an IG player getting to shoot twice with dozens of artillery tanks.

I was fortunate then to not play against imperial guard then. Yeah - that is obviously busted too.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Which assets are those?

Two obvious ones:

"Gunners, kill on sight!" allows three LRBTs to take a free shooting action after they finish their normal activation, which of course benefits from the shoot twice buff for not moving over half speed. Not quite a full detachment (I misread this initially), but pretty significant. And in a normal 40k game that's broken as hell.

Industrial Efficiency (Armageddon) gives every unit in the detachment the rapid fire rule for all of their weapons. With IG having plenty of tank guns with extremely long range this effectively doubles the firepower of a tank detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - it's a lot better. A 2++ when you thought they had a 4++. You'd simply ignore a 2++ because it's impossible to kill. Since it happens in the damage phase - you waste firepower. There are also mortal wounds in 40k. I CAN NOT believe people are actually defending this. Whatever. Defend 2++ all you want - I am out.

You don't know the particular unit, but you do know that the card exists and you can spread out your fire to make it inefficient. Single-unit stratagems just aren't that impressive, especially when they only apply to infantry units. The real game-breaking stuff is the ones that apply to tons of units at once. Even if it literally said "remove all blast markers from a single infantry unit" it would still be underwhelming compared to an IG player getting to shoot twice with dozens of artillery tanks.

Why would that LRBT stratagem be busted? It's 6 shots. Even with 3 command tanks, you are looking at less than 3 blasts. Many cards do much more than that.

It's way more than that, because if you know how dice work you're taking the two-shot tanks. So 12 free shots (remember you get to double tap), hitting on 2s. And if RNG is cooperative and you get to add the Armageddon buff that's 24 free shots. And then you have to add in the shots from the secondary weapons, not just the main guns.

Haven't played my first game as yet (looking forward to trying it) but many of the "that's busted!" arguments in this threat seem to be talking about stuff in the context of 40K.

This is apocalypse, it's a completely different scale. Who cares if a unit of infantry doesnt die for a turn, who cares if three tanks get to shoot twice, both of those example would be a massive issue in normal 40k but apoc games should be dealing with 30-40 units a side minimum thus these bonuses have far less effect on the game as a hole. I for one want the card to have decent effect, its suppose to be a game about epic scale and awesome things happening.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's way more than that, because if you know how dice work you're taking the two-shot tanks. So 12 free shots (remember you get to double tap), hitting on 2s. And if RNG is cooperative and you get to add the Armageddon buff that's 24 free shots. And then you have to add in the shots from the secondary weapons, not just the main guns.

No it's 6 shots, i already doubled them for double tap. What gun are you considering? And why hitting on 2's?

 Peregrine wrote:
It's way more than that, because if you know how dice work you're taking the two-shot tanks. So 12 free shots (remember you get to double tap), hitting on 2s. And if RNG is cooperative and you get to add the Armageddon buff that's 24 free shots. And then you have to add in the shots from the secondary weapons, not just the main guns.

....hitting on 2s? You said this was 3 LRBTs, which hit on 4s, or 5s if damaged.

I'm going to have to read these cards for myself when I get the set.

Assuming that the Armageddon stratagem is indeed "Rapid fire for all weapons on all models" and does work on everything from an infantry squad to a super-heavy detachment of five baneblades with titan-class weapons, and assuming the LRBT stratagem does work concurrent to that and does work with Grinding Advance and does give you guaranteed hits on 2s, then yeah, that combination of two cards seems like it'd be pretty bonkers.

I will say I'm not crazy scared of leman russ tanks in general, just because for the power level you pay for them they seem like extreme glass cannons especially the higher-ballistic skill commanders who will probably be Warlords. They've got pretty low LD and a 6+sv so throw 3-4 blasts their way and you've got a fairly decent chance of one rounding them. I feel like in a lot of situations it'll be a matter of trying to make up their 10-15PL in just a single round of shooting, because every long range anti-tank gun I've got is going to be heading their way. Plus, if the super bonkers crazy-amazing stratagem is in fact Leman Russes specifically, I know exactly what you'll be trying to do if you plop down a detachment with 3 of them, and I know how to make that threat go away.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's way more than that, because if you know how dice work you're taking the two-shot tanks. So 12 free shots (remember you get to double tap), hitting on 2s. And if RNG is cooperative and you get to add the Armageddon buff that's 24 free shots. And then you have to add in the shots from the secondary weapons, not just the main guns.

No it's 6 shots, i already doubled them for double tap. What gun are you considering? And why hitting on 2's?

Nova Cannon, Vanquisher, Demolisher and Exterminator are all 2 shots base, which doubles to 4 with grinding advance, so getting to double-shoot if the wording of the card is exactly as perri says would get your 3 leman russes making 12 shots total.

which would be, best case, 5.5 blasts vs tanks with a full detachment of Vanquisher+Lascannon russes. Enough to reliably blow away something outrageous like 1-1.5 standard-size vehicles.

Hide yo kids, hide yo rhinos.

the_scotsman wrote:
..hitting on 2s? You said this was 3 LRBTs, which hit on 4s, or 5s if damaged.

Tank commanders are BS 3+ and aimed fire gives +1 to hit.

Spoletta wrote:
Go to Ground is not that good in a game where focus fire is bad math wise.
If your opponent managed to put you in a situation where you were forced to focus fire a light infantry unit and he had that card, then it was a good play on his part.

True, but it's basically for "this is the unit on the objective" moments, I guess.