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The biggest change is the No Soup... how is it stacking up?

Without knowing what the super-doctrines are for remaining chapters, or how non-codex chapters are going to be handled, its way too soon to ask this.

I do think it’ll be interesting to see. You’re paying a ton of cps and your screening bodies for doctrines. If you didn’t need the base doctrine active to use your chapter super bonus then tbh I’m not sure it’s always worth it.

Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.

What I meant was like a army that is: Battalion of Ultra, Bat of Space Wolves, Gman. Technically soup, but its all SM soup.

At some point, these should be able to soup and not lose Doctrine.

Marines rarely ever "souped" outside their dex before. Intra-dex soup will probably still happen - especially if things like the BT "4+ Deny" stratagem still exists.

Reemule wrote:
What I meant was like a army that is: Battalion of Ultra, Bat of Space Wolves, Gman. Technically soup, but its all SM soup.

At some point, these should be able to soup and not lose Doctrine.

With the potency of doctrines and chapter tactics affecting units differently you are basically encouraged to mix chapters but that really isn't soup. Soup is when you mix up codex. Playing out of your codex is a mono build.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.

Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.

As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.


As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.

I really hope they give more bonuses to armies to not soup. like there should be a penalty for having forces who are not the same force like they may "work with" other forces but work best by themselves. hopefully chaos, eldar of all types and tyranids get the same. bonus points if they give necrons something too, they really need it.

bort wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.

Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.

As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.


As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.

It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo. On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo. I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying. You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss. Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.

Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.

As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.


As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.

It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo. On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo. I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying. You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss. Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.

You clearly haven't been paying attention the doctrines only change if you choose to advance the doctrine.
It can stay in the heavy weapons for all 6 turns if you really wanted it to.

Never souped before, never will now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.

Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.

As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.


As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.

It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo.

You must have never played against Serpents, Leman Russes, Reapers, Guardsmen, Guardians, Shadow Spectres, Crimson Hunters, or....

You'll go on for *pages* about how -1AP on a Brightlance is so much bigger a deal than either S9 or 48" range. But suddenly your Lascannons get that -1AP *too*, and it's trash?

On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo.

Harlies and Demons, sure. But Guardians, Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, Necrons, Cultists, Gaunts, Custodes, and just about everything else? Not many infantry units have invulns equal to their Sv. And those that do are less common meta-wise than those that don't by a *wide* margin.

I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying.

AP-1 is the most efficient AP change in the game. Against the toughest armor (2+), you double your firepower. While paying the absolute minimum to get any AP.

You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss.

You're losing reroll all wounds in an aura for 20% of your total points. And a detatchment slot. So you can have 25% more boys and toys with AP-1 in exchange for the rerolls. That's not a small change. And you're not locked into UM. And you're not locked into castleing inside a bubble. And everything but your infantry is getting CTs. And you're getting much better CTs. And more attacks. And points cuts. You're getting a lot more than Doctrines in exchange for Gman's wounds aura.

Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.

You can, if covering said weaknesses is worth the loss of doctrines. So a much-maligned way to play Marines becomes a tradeoff instead of an automatic choice.

Your arguments aren't even internally consistent.

A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.

Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).

With one point of AP on boltguns(/stormbolters/etc) across the board, you are now at least 20% better against almost all hordes (mostly just demons and Harlies it doesn't impact), 50% better vs MEQ, and 100% better vs TEQ. So your small arms now handle everything but vehicles better.

You'll handle vehicles better on T1. But you can invest even more of your army in AT, as your anti-infantry/GEQ/MEQ/TEQ stuff now has much more mileage after T1.

I'm not saying that one set of rules dramatically changes the whole meta, but it is a substantial change to Marines.

I really would like to soup my iron hands with my AdMech (which was always my intent with these armies), but we'll see. I don't think I could justify the loss of doctrines.

Honestly if the trade-off is that marines are better without guard or knights, then I'm all for it and won't look back.

since my Space Marines don't use Codex: Space Marines, I don't get doctrines, so it doesn't matter to me anyway.

That said, with a lot of stuff getting buffs, it might see use, but I'm definitely still going to have Guardsmen hanging around for their CP presence.

Going mono faction for sure.

I might decide to ally in very particular scenarios.

You get Combat Doctrines if you are battle-forged and your army consists of only Marines and Servitors and Unaligned (fortification).

I never allied before and I won't ally now, although it does make my perpetually wip knight lance sad.

I see no reason to change how I currently play.

My Dark Angels don't trust soup. Heck! My Dark Angels don't even trust other Dark Angels! Those shady Dark Angels. I wonder what they're up to...

Whether you soup or mono, its always good to have the option. Smart play for GW for making it somewhat rewarding to stick with mono with new codex.

No one should complain about this style.

I always ran pure. Now I am finally being rewarded.

 Stormonu wrote:
A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.

Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).

If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.

Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.

CapRichard wrote:
Never souped before, never will now.

I soup'ed before it was soup. I took an Allied squad (or two) of Cadians I had painted up as Ultramar PDF - i.e. a blue/white color scheme with iconography way back in 2nd Edition after reading some Ultramarine Black Library novel about a Sergeant training/Hero-Marine'ing a Guard Squad. I want to say it was Uriel Ventris book and the Sergeant was Pasanius but that was a couple decades ago.

Haven't souped since they named it soup'ing. I've got too many units sitting on the shelf waiting for their turn to cycle into a list and trigger the "what does that do" questions.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.

Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).

If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.

Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.

In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.

ThatMG wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.

Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).

If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.

Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.

In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.

Ok. That doesn't sound universally good enough for me to drop souping I think. Plenty armies that use mostly 1 wound models as core where this would be useless. Could be wrong though but depending on white scar stratagems more CP's could be better than that. Losing ultramarine's super doctrine hurts more though.

tneva82 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.

Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).

If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.

Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.

In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.

Ok. That doesn't sound universally good enough for me to drop souping I think. Plenty armies that use mostly 1 wound models as core where this would be useless. Could be wrong though but depending on white scar stratagems more CP's could be better than that. Losing ultramarine's super doctrine hurts more though.

It makes D5 TH a thing, however the game is normally over by turn 3 so it's hard to get to that assault doctrine. An the reason why TH went to 40 points for characters.

Yeah but how often D5 over D4 is really going to change the result of game compared to cheap bodies and extra CP?

Isn't there stratagem to hasten up doctrine change though so you could get it by turn 2 at least? Main assaults tends to happen on T2 anyway after chaff is cleared so that doesn't sound too bad. Though for stratagems you need CP which means soup has advantage again.