Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Invictus Tactical Warsuit is out!

And it looks........like a Space Marine recreating Avatar.


Exosuited marines aren't new. Dreadknights and Centurions have been around quite a few years now...

But the question is this:

What's the point of taking a Redepmtor Dreadnought over a Warsuit now?

A redemptor is:

a 13 wound S7 T7 vehicle with a 30" range main weapon (Heavy 12 S5 Ap-1 D1) and heavy flamer. it can target flying units with an ircarus rocket pod. Has to footslog across battlefield or arrive by Lucius Drop Pod.

an invictor is:

a 13 wound, S7 T6 vehicle with either a 12" 2D6 autohitting incendium cannon or a 36" twin ironhail stubber (Heavy S4 AP-1 D1), twin irohnhail autocannon (Heavy 6 S7-1 D2). It can set up ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAT IS MORE THAN 9" from enemy!!!! Oh and it has a heavy bolter it uses as a PISTOL!


So the Invicttor:

Outshoots the Redemptor
Is T6 compared to T7 but that's the only bad point
Can scout and Alpha Strike
Costs less than Redemptor (in points)


Are dreads dead??

I agree on all points.

The Redemptor desperately needs some real heavy weapons to make it an interesting choice. It was never really attractive, but now even less.
Or maybe let it give up the melee arm for mirrored weapons. Give it useful support stuff, like the Atomantic Barrier from the Deredeo (which is now outclassed by the Impulsor).

 Corennus wrote:
The Invictus Tactical Warsuit is out!

And it looks........like a Space Marine recreating Avatar.


Exosuited marines aren't new. Dreadknights and Centurions have been around quite a few years now...

But the question is this:

What's the point of taking a Redepmtor Dreadnought over a Warsuit now?

A redemptor is:

a 13 wound S7 T7 vehicle with a 30" range main weapon (Heavy 12 S5 Ap-1 D1) and heavy flamer. it can target flying units with an ircarus rocket pod. Has to footslog across battlefield or arrive by Lucius Drop Pod.

an invictor is:

a 13 wound, S7 T6 vehicle with either a 12" 2D6 autohitting incendium cannon or a 36" twin ironhail stubber (Heavy S4 AP-1 D1), twin irohnhail autocannon (Heavy 6 S7-1 D2). It can set up ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAT IS MORE THAN 9" from enemy!!!! Oh and it has a heavy bolter it uses as a PISTOL!


So the Invicttor:

Outshoots the Redemptor
Is T6 compared to T7 but that's the only bad point
Can scout and Alpha Strike
Costs less than Redemptor (in points)


Are dreads dead??

Yeah probably.

Buy the new thing!

In three months, we will release the IRONSPECTRE TACTICOOL DREADSUIT, which will be a slightly better version of this thing.

THen, buy that new thing!

 Corennus wrote:
The Invictus Tactical Warsuit is out!

And it looks........like a Space Marine recreating Avatar.

And that, there, is more than enough reason to continue using proper Dreadnoughts.

We really don't need Giant Marines trying to cosplay as things from a different license, thankyouverymuch.

It makes this specific dread more unique in my opinion. That being said I agree, why take the redemptor unless you know you're facing a horde? (we all know no ones using the macro plasma)

And to make matters worse bolter discipline is now an official rule and much easier to use. Plus aggressors exist


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing is I could put the redemptor and the invictor beside each other and ask someone which do you think is tougher. It's a fair bet they'll say the redemptor has the higher toughness. But if I set an ironclad next to a normal dread, I doubt my friends would know the ironclad is T8

No for nothing, but if they gave the Redemptor some form of heavy anti-tank dakka, maybe say a quad las-fusil pistol lol.

I do like that you get a Heavy 6 Autocannon. Twin Autocannon Dreads are my favorite, but they are Index only. That said, the Incendium cannon Invictus is probably the rignt choice since it can set up in range to immediately torch some stuff.

I still think Twin Las/ML Ven Dreads are a viable option to still back and pew-pew. Their higher T, access to anti-tank weapons and relatively small size make them more durable and able to get in multiple turns. They also do not have a damage chart.

But if you want a "Dread" to be up close and personal, the Invictus is the only real choice

-

LOL you are missing. The 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

It will probably be annoying, but I bet it will act a lot like fire dragons - it'll do some damage, scare your opponent, and then immediately die because it only has T6. It may have 13 wounds, but that toughness isn't going to do anything to protect it. The only reason why Necron Arks are so tough is because of quantum shielding.

Screening will still be useful against it, just move your backline further back than usual to compensate for the flamer range and movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

Isn't it a twin Ironhail Autocannon? More like 1.5 more shots than an autocannon.
But yeah, its weird that it has more shots than a normal autocannon, while the Ironhail Heavy Stubber has the same number of shots as a heavy stubber, but better AP.
Its a bit inconsistent imo, and I find that to be wonky design.

You know who I feel sorry for...

All those players who have spent loads getting Redemptors and Centurions.

Are dreads dead??

Yes, until GW nerfs the new dread in order to bring it back in line.
Like the Hellturky.
And other such NEW AND IMPROVED things.

Dreadnoughts have their place. For example people who don't like their mechs to be killed by a pistol to the face because the Mechanicus lost the front.

hey, after you hit 3 Invictus suits...you can then start adding Redemptors!
Redemptor isn't bad, especially if you stay in Devatsator Doctrine. It's also decent for deathwatch since it can deep strike and they don't get access to the Invictor.

The Invictor is basically Redemptor Light, there is a place for both and the Redemptor is still pretty darn cheap.

Adn hillarity starts once again.

But to your information, THE front wasn't lost by the servants of the Omnisiah.
It just got stuck in the Burocracy of the imerium of man.

The point of dreadnoughts is TwinLas+Missile.

The Invictor is at best a mild inconvenience to tanks, and while VenDreds don't degrade, it does and is low toughness.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

Yeah but the flame thrower isn't any better than the chaingun. The autocannon is arguably better than the chaingun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the invictor is a nice piece. It doesn't make redemptor useless though. I actually think the redemptor is better. ESP with that 2 damage icarus now. If they have a fly target in their army. With the +1 to hit you are basically getting half of the invictors main gun.

Comment on the looks:
Could have tried harder to make it a SM version of the Scout Sentinel, it could have looked pretty good.
They just borrow too much plating and the overall shape of a dread so you wonder why they made a competing not-half-dead marine piloting the thing.
The full cage right down to the feet just looks wrong, some plating up to the neck would have looked "appropriate" BUT they had been showing helmets on dreads so they had to go that step further to differentiate.
I would have set the legs in "chicken-walker" to make it really clear.
I guess they wanted to stay away from the Dreadknight "baby-carrier".

Design Thoughts:
It really boils down to what role did they envision this thing to fill?
They say it is to better support their deep-strike friends.
Is a gunslinger HB that much needed for cool factor? Just under-arm sling the darn thing like the HF and SB dreadnaughts have.
Or a slide-drop over-forearm to be different (for either fist or gun, not both).
Some Grav-chute gear would have improved the look of the thing and really made it clear of it's role.
It would have looked a bit funny with the "Phobos" look and have a BIG left shoulder pad (or not?).
The new emphasis on the "Heavy Stubber" look is getting away from the marine bolters in general, it does however ensure it's guns are not included in the various SM rules that allow firing twice.

General Thoughts:
I am curious how they would measure up to the Centurion with the twin heavy bolters and the double firing hurricane bolters in it's chest.
Differing slots but similar roles for sure., I will have to add it up and check the stats and points more.

I would point out that there are Dread-only strats that don't work on the Invictus, so there's some utility in there too. Also that a dread is over the line where Might of Heroes (?) gets it up to T8.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL you are missing. The ther 6 shot str 5 ap -1 you get on the redemptor. It has a fair amount more firepower.
18 str 5 ap-1 - plus 2 storm bolters that put out 8 shots all the time and the d3 shot icarus rocket pod. Plus you also get a d6 damage fist too.

The Invictor has 6 autocannon shots (this is nice) 6 str 4 ap-1 3 str and 5 ap -1 and d6 str 4 shots. So it has less overall shots and less overall toughness for about 20 points less. I don't see an issue here. Except maybe that the main gun is too powerful on the invictor. Why is it 3 autocannons?

The flamethrower is the better gun given the platform. I think a lot of lists will hate this model.

Edit: And by hate I mean people will hate playing against it.

Yeah but the flame thrower isn't any better than the chaingun. The autocannon is arguably better than the chaingun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the invictor is a nice piece. It doesn't make redemptor useless though. I actually think the redemptor is better. ESP with that 2 damage icarus now. If they have a fly target in their army. With the +1 to hit you are basically getting half of the invictors main gun.

Raw stat wise? Probably. The flamethrower is better IMO since the invictor infiltrates. It can start burning the enemy turn 1 and the flamethrower is great on the overwatch. The Invictor seems best against Melee infantry like ork Boyz.

I tried out the invictor with the flamethrower yesterday. It is great unit to bully infantry with. At 131pts it is a steal IMO.

The autocannon seems a bit of a waste on a unit that infiltrates.

Also I don't think the invictor invalidates dreads either.

 Corennus wrote:
You know who I feel sorry for...

All those players who have spent loads getting Redemptors and Centurions.

Who both got improved and are not invalid.

What’s the point difference between the Invictus and the Redemptor? As long as the Invictus is paying for being better, there’s still reason for the other.

 Stormonu wrote:
What’s the point difference between the Invictus and the Redemptor? As long as the Invictus is paying for being better, there’s still reason for the other.

Redemptor Fist is D6 VS Flat 3
Redemptor is T7 VS T6
Redemptor move 8 VS 10

And then there's weapons and rules

Do any of them measure up to a Venerable Contemptor? That thing is cheap and excellent.

 Elbows wrote:
Do any of them measure up to a Venerable Contemptor? That thing is cheap and excellent.

Oh it is excellent but it is in a different class than a redemptor I'd say. Redemptors are anti infantry dreads that run around with d6 damage powerfists and 13 wounds. Contemptors spam lascannons for what 170?

 Corennus wrote:
The Invictus Tactical Warsuit is out!

And it looks........like a Space Marine recreating Avatar.


Exosuited marines aren't new. Dreadknights and Centurions have been around quite a few years now...

But the question is this:

What's the point of taking a Redepmtor Dreadnought over a Warsuit now?

A redemptor is:

a 13 wound S7 T7 vehicle with a 30" range main weapon (Heavy 12 S5 Ap-1 D1) and heavy flamer. it can target flying units with an ircarus rocket pod. Has to footslog across battlefield or arrive by Lucius Drop Pod.

an invictor is:

a 13 wound, S7 T6 vehicle with either a 12" 2D6 autohitting incendium cannon or a 36" twin ironhail stubber (Heavy S4 AP-1 D1), twin irohnhail autocannon (Heavy 6 S7-1 D2). It can set up ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAT IS MORE THAN 9" from enemy!!!! Oh and it has a heavy bolter it uses as a PISTOL!


So the Invicttor:

Outshoots the Redemptor
Is T6 compared to T7 but that's the only bad point
Can scout and Alpha Strike
Costs less than Redemptor (in points)


Are dreads dead??

The repulsor was never alive. It's better than it was thanks to doctrines, point drops, and IH tactic though.

Contemptors and Vendreds are not only still great options, but are better than they've been since 5th. Even standard dreadnaughts are useful if you don't have points for a vendred.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Do any of them measure up to a Venerable Contemptor? That thing is cheap and excellent.

Oh it is excellent but it is in a different class than a redemptor I'd say. Redemptors are anti infantry dreads that run around with d6 damage powerfists and 13 wounds. Contemptors spam lascannons for what 170?

I'm not sure, I run CSM and don't own a Contemptor, but I know the base cost is like 88 points. They get BS 2+, 10" move, 10(?) wounds etc. if I recall correctly. They have a lot of weapon options - heck I think they can run twin-heavy bolters on each arm, or the CSM ones can run conversion beamers, etc. They also have a fist+gun combo, etc. I dunno, I just remember looking at the Contemptor and thinking it was the best combo by far. (two of them still slotting in under a single Leviathan sadly)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Are dreads dead??

Yes, until GW nerfs the new dread in order to bring it back in line.
Like the Hellturky.
And other such NEW AND IMPROVED things.

People keep saying this but primaris were gak for like 2 solid years and their most expensive kits were never competitive and still aren't. If you bought a Redemptor you bought it because you liked it, not because it was good.

The power level of new releases is entirely random.

ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Are dreads dead??

Yes, until GW nerfs the new dread in order to bring it back in line.
Like the Hellturky.
And other such NEW AND IMPROVED things.

People keep saying this but primaris were gak for like 2 solid years and their most expensive kits were never competitive and still aren't. If you bought a Redemptor you bought it because you liked it, not because it was good.

The power level of new releases is entirely random.

Easy there, don't shatter the narrative

I agree that GW seems to be bringing out more and more Primaris at the cost of old (inverted commas) model becoming obsolete (cough CENTURIONS cough)