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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Guys, maybe it's only obvious to me, but Russian troll is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins.

not necessary, I'll quit myself, you just had to ask ))) just don't post utter lies on Russia, be responsible, or I'll come to say you lie...

you call me troll ))) well, I indeed was recruited by KGB somewhere around 7 ed of Warhammer, Traitor legions eh... into Russian Plague Colony to spread Nurgle gifts ))) I've got 7k of CSM&death guard models about 60% painted, and 2,5k of Harlequins which are now in a painting studio as I can't do them good enough... and my son has 2.5k of necrons, we've got a good painted gaming table with terrain and play a lot at home...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7q0a252e2fyb015/IMG_20180401_1001500~2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwuyn6elm4kkb1v/IMG_20180206_2338436.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3li63u6lp2zxh4/IMG_20171125_1020546.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujiwlr0bunfzfw0/IMG_20180418_2041085.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xp621w7996rlx4y/IMG_20180418_2041007.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/agui1z07wv6vc6u/IMG_20180418_2040518.jpg?dl=0

is it that hard to believe there are patriots in Russia who know both Russian and World history well enough? be responsible, people...

 elk@work wrote:

is it that hard to believe there are patriots in Russia who know both Russian and World history well enough?

Apparently there aren't if you are referring to yourself.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Guys, maybe it's only obvious to me, but Russian troll is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins.

If I could put "X is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins." on a t-shirt, I probably wouldn't because it's far too long and, let's face it, would look ridiculous, but I would still appreciate the idea behind it.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Guys, maybe it's only obvious to me, but Russian troll is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins.

If I could put "X is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins." on a t-shirt, I probably wouldn't because it's far too long and, let's face it, would look ridiculous, but I would still appreciate the idea behind it.

Give me a bit and i might work up something like that. Not sure if Dakka would approve though, my model is somewhat buxom.

And, nice Eddings ref in the sig. It's a callback to Belgariad when Barak blasts a armored knight off his horse with his bare fist and asking if 'anyone else would like to comment on my beard?' and Mandorallen is impressed.

The shorter Tee Shirt Slogan is 'Don't Feed The Trolls' - and would look pretty snazzy on a tee shirt.

The Auld Grump

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Guys, maybe it's only obvious to me, but Russian troll is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins.

No gak. Have you ever participated in a thread discussing Russia in a negative light here?

"This guy is arguing that the moon is made of cheese and deliberately derailing the thread to have it closed mods" - "Well its not against the rules..."

Just ignore and continue on with the thread instead of arguing that the moon's made out of cheese. The trolls would rather we argue instead of having an actual discussion, though well, I think most people would take them up on that offer regardless TBH.

Look guys, they are selling Novichok-flavoured cooking oil in stores now!

I hear it's got a killer taste.

So I'd heard on the radio they were discharged from hospital after a full recovery?

Discharged. It's not clear if you ever fully recover from a nerve gas attack. The Sarin victims in Tokyo still have some troubles over 20 years later.

Even without the nerve gas, after a coma like that I'd be surprised if he is still the same as before the attack. It is good to see they managed to keep him alive though.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Even without the nerve gas, after a coma like that I'd be surprised if he is still the same as before the attack. It is good to see they managed to keep him alive though.

Really? Because your previous comments about this have included such phrases as "a traitor is a traitor for life".

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Even without the nerve gas, after a coma like that I'd be surprised if he is still the same as before the attack. It is good to see they managed to keep him alive though.

Really? Because your previous comments about this have included such phrases as "a traitor is a traitor for life".

Yes. It is no secret that I don't like the guy and want to see him get punished. Doesn't mean I wish him dead. It is always sad when people die, even if those people are total scumbags. Not because of the scumbags themselves, but because even scumbags have family and loved ones that care about them and who will mourn for them if they die. His daughter for example is probably very happy her dad is still alive. And that is why I am happy he is still alive as well.

In totally unrelated news, Chelsea owner Abramovich experiences UK visa renewal 'delay'

He *was* punished, and the Russian state chose to free him. In return for someone else released, true, but they chose to end his imprisonment rather than other options likely available.

Russia and its supporters continually talk as though Skripal is a wanted fugitive, someone who hasn’t stood trial and whose crimes are unanswered. He’s done time in prison and the state chose to commute his sentence.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
He *was* punished, and the Russian state chose to free him. In return for someone else released, true, but they chose to end his imprisonment rather than other options likely available.

Russia and its supporters continually talk as though Skripal is a wanted fugitive, someone who hasn’t stood trial and whose crimes are unanswered. He’s done time in prison and the state chose to commute his sentence.

Russia needed someone to exchange. He was released on political grounds, not judicial ones. I really dislike it when traitors and other 'heavy' criminals (like murderers and gang leaders) are released prematurely. It hurts the feeling of justice.

Doesn’t matter, if ‘justice’ was that important they’d have found another compromise that didn’t involve releasing him. Fact is that he’d been tried, put in prison, and legitimately released.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not sure why, but I didn't think this stuff was still going on:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia/britain-warns-russia-over-double-agents-mysterious-illness-idUSKBN1GH2UX

Britain warned Russia on Tuesday of a robust response if the Kremlin was behind a mysterious illness that has struck down a former double agent convicted of betraying dozens of spies to British intelligence.

What would constitute a 'robust response' from England to Russia?

Ironically enough, if you knew this was still going on, that would mean that these guys are all doing a really gakky job.

Wow!

I was about to post the news of this guy having been shot "while critical of Putin" and it turns out it was a fake murder organised in co-operation with the Ukraine security services.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/arkady-babchenko-reveals-he-faked-his-death-to-thwart-moscow-plot

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Wow!

I was about to post the news of this guy having been shot "while critical of Putin" and it turns out it was a fake murder organised in co-operation with the Ukraine security services.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/arkady-babchenko-reveals-he-faked-his-death-to-thwart-moscow-plot

Which probably counts as "vaguest and most confusing story of the month".

So this guy was killed except he wasn't killed because his killers just pretended to kill him because someone else wanted to kill him?
And then they loudly announce the whole thing. That was supposed to protect him how?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Wow!

I was about to post the news of this guy having been shot "while critical of Putin" and it turns out it was a fake murder organised in co-operation with the Ukraine security services.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/arkady-babchenko-reveals-he-faked-his-death-to-thwart-moscow-plot

Which probably counts as "vaguest and most confusing story of the month".

So this guy was killed except he wasn't killed because his killers just pretended to kill him because someone else wanted to kill him?
And then they loudly announce the whole thing. That was supposed to protect him how?

from what I can find, the story is that basically it was a sting, and as a result they have two people in custody for the attempted assassination, and the dude is still alive.

That said, it certainly sounds like an odd way to carry out such an operation...

Babchenko's story is the most incredible thing. At some point in the last couple of years stuff that only happened in really silly movies started becoming regular news, and Babchenko's story is still crazy even in that context.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Which probably counts as "vaguest and most confusing story of the month".

So this guy was killed except he wasn't killed because his killers just pretended to kill him because someone else wanted to kill him?
And then they loudly announce the whole thing. That was supposed to protect him how?

It isn't that hard to understand. Babchenko is an outspoken critic of Putin, and outspoken critics of Putin tend to get murdered. Babchenko was being protected by Ukrainian special forces, and they received information of plots to kill around 30 people in Ukraine, including Babchenko. They identified Russian operatives paying a Ukrainian man around US$40,000 to set up the assassination. That money was paid to agents of the Ukrainian government, who then set up the false murder. It isn't known for certain why they needed to make the attack so elaborate and maintain the ruse for 24 hours, but it was likely to watch the Russian agents and see who they reported to after the killing was supposed to have happened.

You personally will likely face a lot of extra challenges in understanding this because making sense of it really does require to begin with an understanding that Mr Putin is a murderous criminal, but for the rest of us it's not so hard to follow.

Seriously... this was better that most spy novels.

I think reading just the historical aspect of this event would be pretty engaging.

 sebster wrote:
Babchenko's story is the most incredible thing. At some point in the last couple of years stuff that only happened in really silly movies started becoming regular news, and Babchenko's story is still crazy even in that context.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Which probably counts as "vaguest and most confusing story of the month".

So this guy was killed except he wasn't killed because his killers just pretended to kill him because someone else wanted to kill him?
And then they loudly announce the whole thing. That was supposed to protect him how?

It isn't that hard to understand. Babchenko is an outspoken critic of Putin, and outspoken critics of Putin tend to get murdered. Babchenko was being protected by Ukrainian special forces, and they received information of plots to kill around 30 people in Ukraine, including Babchenko. They identified Russian operatives paying a Ukrainian man around US$40,000 to set up the assassination. That money was paid to agents of the Ukrainian government, who then set up the false murder. It isn't known for certain why they needed to make the attack so elaborate and maintain the ruse for 24 hours, but it was likely to watch the Russian agents and see who they reported to after the killing was supposed to have happened.

You personally will likely face a lot of extra challenges in understanding this because making sense of it really does require to begin with an understanding that Mr Putin is a murderous criminal, but for the rest of us it's not so hard to follow.

Wow, there was no need for that. Seriously, you are a joke. A really bad one.

Also, it is easy to say that Moscow tried to kill Babchenko, just because he has been critical of Putin. However, there are millions of people in Russia and Ukraine critical of Putin without being assassinated, so being critical of Putin alone is hardly only other evidence is that the SBU said "Moscow did it." Problem with that is that the SBU says "Moscow did it" as soon as someone in Kiev stubs his toe.
For all we know, someone tried to kill Babchenko for entirely different reasons, or maybe not at all, and the SBU is spinning this story for political profit. It would not be the first case of the SBU fabricating anti-Russian propaganda out of thin air, nor the first case that the Russian government is accused of assassinating someone completely without evidence. Just concluding that 'Putin did it' based on nothing else but the fact that mr. Babchenko doesn't like Putin is a ridiculous leap of faith.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wow, there was no need for that. Seriously, you are a joke. A really bad one.

Thanks. But meanwhile I'm just explaining that this is all pretty simple if you get over a simple hurdle - Putin is a criminal who organises the murders of political enemies. Once you understand that, the idea that people protecting one of Putin's targets might stage his death to flush out Putin's agents, it becomes an incredible story, but not a particularly difficult one to understand.

Also, it is easy to say that Moscow tried to kill Babchenko, just because he has been critical of Putin.

No, it is said because the assassins were employed by Russian agents. Seriously, just move over that hurdle, say it slowly if you have to - 'Putin is a criminal who organises murders of political enemies'.

You will find life so much easier if you don't have dedicate so much energy to denying reality.

del

 sebster wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wow, there was no need for that. Seriously, you are a joke. A really bad one.

Thanks. But meanwhile I'm just explaining that this is all pretty simple if you get over a simple hurdle - Putin is a criminal who organises the murders of political enemies. Once you understand that, the idea that people protecting one of Putin's targets might stage his death to flush out Putin's agents, it becomes an incredible story, but not a particularly difficult one to understand.

There is several problems with your statement that Putin is a murderous criminal. It implies two things, that he is a criminal and that he is murderous. Now, Putin does not have a criminal record, so we can't objectively say that he is a criminal. Now we can call him a criminal in a subjective "I don't like what mr. Putin did and think it should not be allowed so I will cal him a criminal" sense, but that carries little objective value. It is a personal opinion, nothing more.
Now the more interesting question. Is Putin 'murderous'? Well, every leader of a world power racks up a certain body count, and US and Chinese presidents tend to rack it up faster than Putin does, but it is undeniable that Putin is responsible for a lot of deaths. The bombardment of Grozny, the Nord-Ost tragedy, the conflict in Ukraine, those are all things that Putin bears a varying degree of responsibility for. So yeah, we could call Putin murderous in that sense. However, I would debate the usefulness of doing so, since we could call a lot of world leaders past and present murderous by the same metric, and I don't hear you call Hu Jintao, George W. Bush or Barack Obama murderous criminals. So I must ask, where did Putin touch you, that you are so mad at him?
Finally, your statement that Putin organises the murder of political enemies. Well, it is undeniably true that the Russian government murders political enemies. As do other world powers such as the US and China, again both of which are more active in doing so. However, saying that Putin organises those murders gives him too much credit. Russia has a vast security bureaucracy devoted to doing things like that (said bureaucracy is also the real power in Russia, not Putin btw), and the president is highly unlikely to personally involve himself in that process beyond giving approval. As head of state, he of course bears responsibility, but it is command responsibility rather than a personal responsibility.
Finally, is there any way we can relate all of this to the supposedly attempted assassination of Babchenko? Not really. Babchenko was hardly a political enemy of Russia or Putin. There is solid proof that Russia is responsible for a lot of assassinations. However, all targets of those assassinations fall into three categories.
1. Terrorists, usually radical islamists or Chechen separatists.
2. Traitors, people who have betrayed the Russian security agencies. Recently we saw a failed example of this in Britain.
3. Oligarchs, the people who used to hold power in Russia before the security agencies re-established control. Those who refused to work with the security agencies have been hunted down and mostly killed.

Note that Babchenko does not fit into any of these categories. Now the Russian government is often accused by Western propaganda to murder journalists and others who are critical of the government. However, it seems strange that while in the previous three categories, we have plenty of cases where there is solid evidence of Russian government responsibility, but in any of these supposed government assassinations of critics all evidence is lacking. Apparently, the Russian security agencies suddenly get really, really good at covering their tracks when they target this category? The other thing that is strange about this is the fact that there are like a million critical journalists and other critics of the Russian government in Russia and in Ukraine, but that they never get targeted by assassinations. Why is it only these particular, not even very high-profile individuals that get singled out? I had literally never even heard of Babchenko before he was supposedly assassinated, and I suspect most Russians had not. If the Russian government wants to get rid of critics so badly, why do they not go after the ones that people actually listen to? Why go after nobodies?

I am sorry for not buying into your conspiracy theories, but they lack logic or rationality. And I happen to like logic and rationality.

 sebster wrote:

Also, it is easy to say that Moscow tried to kill Babchenko, just because he has been critical of Putin.

No, it is said because the assassins were employed by Russian agents. Seriously, just move over that hurdle, say it slowly if you have to - 'Putin is a criminal who organises murders of political enemies'.

You will find life so much easier if you don't have dedicate so much energy to denying reality.

Again, the only source for that is the SBU, who genuinely believe that "Russian agents" are behind every tree and lamp post in Ukraine. Which, knowing Russia, might actually be correct, but it is impossible to verify anything the SBU says and they definitely are not some impartial third party, so only an idiot would take them at face value.

Also, on a completely unrelated note: Sebster, what happened to your avatar? Your old one was much better, it was so cute.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Yeah yeah... after failing to explain what and how exactly Skripal accident happened it ended up with "But it was Putin, because he is bad".

Really? You're saying a nerve agent was accidentally put on someone's door handle?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
However, all targets of those assassinations fall into three categories.
1. Terrorists, usually radical islamists or Chechen separatists.
2. Traitors, people who have betrayed the Russian security agencies. Recently we saw a failed example of this in Britain.
3. Oligarchs, the people who used to hold power in Russia before the security agencies re-established control. Those who refused to work with the security agencies have been hunted down and mostly killed.

Number three there would seem to qualify him for being a "murderous criminal". Unless "not doing what you're told" is now a capital offence.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
However, all targets of those assassinations fall into three categories.
1. Terrorists, usually radical islamists or Chechen separatists.
2. Traitors, people who have betrayed the Russian security agencies. Recently we saw a failed example of this in Britain.
3. Oligarchs, the people who used to hold power in Russia before the security agencies re-established control. Those who refused to work with the security agencies have been hunted down and mostly killed.

Number three there would seem to qualify him for being a "murderous criminal". Unless "not doing what you're told" is now a capital offence.

He also missed out journalists.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
However, all targets of those assassinations fall into three categories.
1. Terrorists, usually radical islamists or Chechen separatists.
2. Traitors, people who have betrayed the Russian security agencies. Recently we saw a failed example of this in Britain.
3. Oligarchs, the people who used to hold power in Russia before the security agencies re-established control. Those who refused to work with the security agencies have been hunted down and mostly killed.

Number three there would seem to qualify him for being a "murderous criminal". Unless "not doing what you're told" is now a capital offence.

I guess you could say that. The same goes for traitors actually. Russia supposedly abolished the death penalty after all, even for treason. Also note that in Russia, these three categories are often conflated. Terrorists, separatists and oligarchs are all seen as traitors as well. The oligarchs are the ones who sold out the Russian people after all for their own personal profit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
However, all targets of those assassinations fall into three categories.
1. Terrorists, usually radical islamists or Chechen separatists.
2. Traitors, people who have betrayed the Russian security agencies. Recently we saw a failed example of this in Britain.
3. Oligarchs, the people who used to hold power in Russia before the security agencies re-established control. Those who refused to work with the security agencies have been hunted down and mostly killed.

Number three there would seem to qualify him for being a "murderous criminal". Unless "not doing what you're told" is now a capital offence.

He also missed out journalists.

No, that is a common accusation, but unlike the three categories I mentioned there has never been any evidence or detectable motive. Several Russian journalists have been murdered since Putin came to power, but there is nothing that connects them. Even if you purposely skew the data by only taking the murders of people who at some point have been critical of Putin in account there does not seem to be any connection or hint as to what may have prompted the government to want them dead. It has to be more than just criticism of Putin, since the vast, vast majority of people and journalists critical of Putin do not get murdered. It also can't be that they only try to silence high-profile criticism, since most of the people that got murdered were really obscure. Those are the reasons why I doubt the Russian government is purposefully killing off critics of Putin, doubts that just aren't there for the other three categories as those all have plenty of cases where Russian government involvement was proven or at least extremely likely.