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Harlequins up on the UK site
Only £20

Got my pre-order placed.

 Robin5t wrote:
Got my pre-order placed.

I'm gonna get it on Darksphere, it's only £15 there

Bit of a tl/dr - but looks like a missed opportunity to me, based obviously on pure theory.

There are quite a few little buffs - but nothing that takes things that were not viable before and boosts them up.

Troupes remain okay - good even - but continue to be very expensive wounds once you bling them out. There might be some optimal mix where you take ablative swordquins - but that in turn dilutes the output of the unit when you do make contact. You are going to have to support them with Troupe Masters & Shadowseers - both of which continue to be reasonable.

Actually one major positive before the litany of salt. The Death Jester might be good now (for the first time ever, possibly even since 2nd edition?). If you kill something with the Shrieker round that's going to be -4 to -6 to morale (1 dead, D3 extra mortal wounds, -2 to leadership on top). Its the kind of low effort-big effect that freakshow needs to be effective. Throw in silent shroud and other effects (hemlocks) and you are starting to get a massive impact on leadership without sacrificing very much. Then when they fail morale you can grab special or heavy weapons or champions etc. The downside is that your chances of killing say a Marine are only around 1/3 - but for 45 points with the mortal wound carry over that isn't terrible. This probably needs testing rather than theory - but taking 3 and seeing how they do is probably worth a shot.

From then on though its all a bit sad.

The Neuro Disruptor remains flat out garbage and is never getting taken unless someone just likes the model. Its not even getting especially competitive levels of efficiency versus Terminators and I think that's about as good as it gets. Even more unfortunately - given its the iconic weapon - the kiss remains rubbish as well. Against say Primaris, which strike me as the go-to 2 wound model you might use it against, its less efficient than using a caress or embrace. Same for terminators. Meanwhile its dramatically worse against one wound models. I have an un-assembled box of Harlequins on my table, but can I build them with kisses knowing they are rubbish? I want to - but I think I will just regret it.

Starweavers are okay I guess - but at 99 points you are paying a lot. Yes 4++, yes -1 to hit, its fast and can fly. But at this level of points 2 Shruriken cannons are pretty awful. In fact this is a running theme - I don't think there is a model across the Eldar range where once you pay for the model, a Shuriken cannon is worth an additional 10 points. I think Venoms are bordering on inefficient in a modern DE list and they are a lot cheaper and do more damage than this. Sure its 5++ vs 4++, but a 5++ is still pretty good for 3/4 the points.
Unfortunately I think you need them unless you lots of LOS-blocking terrain - which doesn't tend to turn up at tournaments. Without them your troupes will just be shot off the table - so its kind of a further tax on troupes. They are super fast but its not as if Troupes are slow.

The Solitaire continues to not really have a niche as you essentially pay for a 5 man troupe but hit like having 2.5-3 guys. On the upside you can go really fast once per game. Its not bad but its not doing much that you don't already get. Basically I think it would have been nice if he could menace say greater daemons and he can't really.

Despite the slight points drop Skyweavers are very expensive for what they do. Its nice to imagine shooting, charging, withdrawing, shooting, charging, grabbing objectives repeat etc - but this assumes your opponent is just oblivious. For that many points their shooting is poor and their melee is poor. Haywire cannons might be okay I guess - but I feel rolling D6 shots, then having to fish for 6s for the D3 mortal wounds will make the gun very erratic. Really though why these things have 3 attacks in melee when a troupe has 4 makes no sense. The grenade is okay I guess but since you can only fire one per unit (and D3 shots, so more random chance, yay) its kind of limited. Also if you don't take the glaive your melee is dire. I can imagine with buffs they will be weirdly annoying to kill with shooting but I am just not sure they really do enough to be a concern.

The Voidweaver's main gun is assault. Good. Unfortunately the vehicle still sucks though - again its the Shruriken cannons that let it down. Also the prismatic's other profiles should have been 6 shots 3 shots 1 shot rather than D6, D3 and 1. Haywire doing d6 shots again, might be okay but would I take a whole Voidweaver to get it? I don't think so. They don't as I see it benefit from any of the Forms, they don't bring anything you don't have elsewhere. Comparing them to ravagers is just sad.

So where does that leave the codex? I think in a casual setting, against a MEQ focused meta I think you will do okay. Against more optimised lists, your Imperial soups, CSM without any CSM, your modern Xenos? Not liking your chances.

Tyel wrote:
Bit of a tl/dr - but looks like a missed opportunity to me, based obviously on pure theory.

There are quite a few little buffs - but nothing that takes things that were not viable before and boosts them up.

Troupes remain okay - good even - but continue to be very expensive wounds once you bling them out. There might be some optimal mix where you take ablative swordquins - but that in turn dilutes the output of the unit when you do make contact. You are going to have to support them with Troupe Masters & Shadowseers - both of which continue to be reasonable.

Actually one major positive before the litany of salt. The Death Jester might be good now (for the first time ever, possibly even since 2nd edition?). If you kill something with the Shrieker round that's going to be -4 to -6 to morale (1 dead, D3 extra mortal wounds, -2 to leadership on top). Its the kind of low effort-big effect that freakshow needs to be effective. Throw in silent shroud and other effects (hemlocks) and you are starting to get a massive impact on leadership without sacrificing very much. Then when they fail morale you can grab special or heavy weapons or champions etc. The downside is that your chances of killing say a Marine are only around 1/3 - but for 45 points with the mortal wound carry over that isn't terrible. This probably needs testing rather than theory - but taking 3 and seeing how they do is probably worth a shot.

From then on though its all a bit sad.

The Neuro Disruptor remains flat out garbage and is never getting taken unless someone just likes the model. Its not even getting especially competitive levels of efficiency versus Terminators and I think that's about as good as it gets. Even more unfortunately - given its the iconic weapon - the kiss remains rubbish as well. Against say Primaris, which strike me as the go-to 2 wound model you might use it against, its less efficient than using a caress or embrace. Same for terminators. Meanwhile its dramatically worse against one wound models. I have an un-assembled box of Harlequins on my table, but can I build them with kisses knowing they are rubbish? I want to - but I think I will just regret it.

Starweavers are okay I guess - but at 99 points you are paying a lot. Yes 4++, yes -1 to hit, its fast and can fly. But at this level of points 2 Shruriken cannons are pretty awful. In fact this is a running theme - I don't think there is a model across the Eldar range where once you pay for the model, a Shuriken cannon is worth an additional 10 points. I think Venoms are bordering on inefficient in a modern DE list and they are a lot cheaper and do more damage than this. Sure its 5++ vs 4++, but a 5++ is still pretty good for 3/4 the points.
Unfortunately I think you need them unless you lots of LOS-blocking terrain - which doesn't tend to turn up at tournaments. Without them your troupes will just be shot off the table - so its kind of a further tax on troupes. They are super fast but its not as if Troupes are slow.

The Solitaire continues to not really have a niche as you essentially pay for a 5 man troupe but hit like having 2.5-3 guys. On the upside you can go really fast once per game. Its not bad but its not doing much that you don't already get. Basically I think it would have been nice if he could menace say greater daemons and he can't really.

Despite the slight points drop Skyweavers are very expensive for what they do. Its nice to imagine shooting, charging, withdrawing, shooting, charging, grabbing objectives repeat etc - but this assumes your opponent is just oblivious. For that many points their shooting is poor and their melee is poor. Haywire cannons might be okay I guess - but I feel rolling D6 shots, then having to fish for 6s for the D3 mortal wounds will make the gun very erratic. Really though why these things have 3 attacks in melee when a troupe has 4 makes no sense. The grenade is okay I guess but since you can only fire one per unit (and D3 shots, so more random chance, yay) its kind of limited. Also if you don't take the glaive your melee is dire. I can imagine with buffs they will be weirdly annoying to kill with shooting but I am just not sure they really do enough to be a concern.

The Voidweaver's main gun is assault. Good. Unfortunately the vehicle still sucks though - again its the Shruriken cannons that let it down. Also the prismatic's other profiles should have been 6 shots 3 shots 1 shot rather than D6, D3 and 1. Haywire doing d6 shots again, might be okay but would I take a whole Voidweaver to get it? I don't think so. They don't as I see it benefit from any of the Forms, they don't bring anything you don't have elsewhere. Comparing them to ravagers is just sad.

So where does that leave the codex? I think in a casual setting, against a MEQ focused meta I think you will do okay. Against more optimised lists, your Imperial soups, CSM without any CSM, your modern Xenos? Not liking your chances.

I agree that Shuriken Cannons are overpriced, and the new best unit might even be the Death Jester. But I still believe that Harlequins have a potential to hurt armies. Maybe playing an all-Harlequins army isn't exactly the best tactic, but it worked reasonably well for me before the codex and I'm sure it will now.

It's still very much codex: fusion pistol and embraces.
Haywires didn't get a big enough boost to threaten vehicles, and neuro-disruptors are a joke. So the only way to deal with vehicles/high toughness is to use fusion pistols.

I can't get the exact profile/rules for the DJ relic. But it looks like for 45pts and 1CP (I'm assuming you'll want two relics) it will be pretty good. Won't be game breaking as it's still a single model, but it will be a nice way to bring that great model to the table.

Other than that, I pretty much 100% agree with Tyel.

With a little reflection and maths I think haywire will be okay on the bikes. Due to those mortal wounds its going to be efficient against vehicles that are around the 10 points per wound level. Most vehicles are more expensive than this - and certain things (Predators for instance if anyone runs those) are dramatically more.

I still think random number of shots on expensive models is a hostage to fortune though.

Is haywire still heavy then or is it also assault like the rest of everything in the codex?

Goddamn hilarious about the neuro pistol. 10 points for that crap. Lol. And the best part is you now know someone looked at it and consciously decided 1 extra point for -5S -1AP and half damage was ok.

the_scotsman wrote:
Is haywire still heavy then or is it also assault like the rest of everything in the codex?

Goddamn hilarious about the neuro pistol. 10 points for that crap. Lol. And the best part is you now know someone looked at it and consciously decided 1 extra point for -5S -1AP and half damage was ok.

Yeah haywire is assault now.

I can only assume somewhere in GW testing there is a Harlequin player consistently beating up a Primaris player and this is why they think D3 damage is amazing (even better than D6 damage, because, uh, reasons).
This is presumably how Kisses were initially priced at 14 points in the index, and despite repeating cuts they can't bring themselves to realise they are only worth about 2-3 points. Even then you would still probably be better with embraces.

Multi-damage weapons were often overcosted in the index, and most of them went down in point in their respective codex.
But GW still has trouble realizing that multiple damage is worth a lot more on high S good AP weapons.

GW will look at armies being played and say, "see...people are using neuro disruptors", and the response will be "no, they are just counts as fusion pistols as I like the way it looks and can't be bothered to fish for fusions online".

At first glance the codex does look to be lazy, but I went into this one with rock bottom expectations (you could tell by the ridiculously tiny coverage it got online this week).

I think the saving grace is that many who play Harlequins do so for the aesthetics and fun so won't be too bothered by all the sub-optimal choices.

Serpents brood with the use of faolchus claw ands Twilight pathways means you can move 6 fusion pistols 56" turn 1 which seems quite crazy, the unit will obviously die straight after but I think I'll give it a try and see what results I get.

Everyone seems to be missing the fact that the DJ relic is locked to a masque (the Dreaming Shadow)

 mokoshkana wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing the fact that the DJ relic is locked to a masque (the Dreaming Shadow)

Yeah, I caught that. My list is going to be predominantly silken shroud but if curtainfall is really that powerful I might consider a dreaming shadow vanguard. Shoot when you die seems ok for a trio of death jesters and a shadowseer.


Soaring Spite seems absolutely spectacular, overall. Everything's just top notch. I love my LD shenanigans but I won't pretend it's likely to be the best.

Yeah, it may be worth it to mix the troupes to use the strats and relics and forget about the traits.

Did anyone see what the power levels of the units are now?

(Can't access videos right now, and I am madly impatient...)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Did anyone see what the power levels of the units are now?

(Can't access videos right now, and I am madly impatient...)

Yeah, that would be cool to hear, as would the stratagems and last psychic power

Last psychic power is WC7, targeted Smite plus -1LD to a target unit.

Seems ok.

Mirror of minds also apparently dropped a WC.

Warhammer community team is at it again.


https://www.facebook.com/1575682476085719/videos/2029123664074929/

And of course 2 thin layers.

Strats we don't know about yet from the winters review:

3CP fight twice
1CP cast an extra power from a shadowseer
1CP reroll hits and wounds in cc VS slaanesh
1CP automatically advance 6" instead of rolling.

SS82 has those strats.

I am looking forward to using the cloak of hidden blades relic on a suicide character with the -1 to hit strat.

I posted a video on Ye Olde Battle Reps collating all the stratagems, relics, and warlord traits info:

https://youtu.be/1FD73Z52_gM

Slashy McTalons wrote:
I posted a video on Ye Olde Battle Reps collating all the stratagems, relics, and warlord traits info:

https://youtu.be/1FD73Z52_gM

Just listened to the first 30secs. EPIC! And Subbed.

Goobi2 wrote:
SS82 has those strats.

I am looking forward to using the cloak of hidden blades relic on a suicide character with the -1 to hit strat.

Yeah. Use the two psychic powers that makes you -1 to hit, chuck in the strat and you have a -3. And, they can't not attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a compilation of the points changes (from index ----> codex):

Does not include wargear. Points per model.

Death Jester 75 ----> 45 (-30)
Shadowseer 134 ---> 125 (-9)
Skyweaver 35 ----> 30 (-5)
Solitaire 94 -----> 84 (-10)
Starweaver 79 -----> 79 (+-0)
Troupe 15 -----> 13 (-2)
Troupe Master 59 -----> 70 (+11)
Voidweaver 68 -----> 68 (+-0)

Melee weapons.

Blade 1 -------> 0 (-1)
Caress 9 -------> 7 (-2)
Embrace 6 -------> 6 (-0)
Kiss 14 ------> 7 (-7 ---- -50%)
Miststave 0 -------> 0 (+-0)
Power Sword 4 -------> 4 (+-0)
Zephyrglaive 11 -----> 6 (-5)

Ranged weapons.

Fusion Pistol 9 -----> 9 (+-0)
HGL 0 -----> 0 (+-0)
Haywire Cannon 14 ---> 15 (+1)
Neuro Dis. 10 ---> 10 (+-0)
Pris. Cannon 20 ---> 20 (+-0)
Pris. Grenades 0 ----> 0 (+-0) NOW CALLED PLASMA GRENADES LIKE THE CWE ONES
Shrieker Cannon 0 ----> 0 (+-0)
Shuriken Cannon 10 ---> 10 (+-0)
Shuriken Pistol 0 ----> 0 (+-0)
Star bolas 0 ----> 0 (+-0)

What?

This is unacceptable.

Give us back our Prismatic Grenades!

What's the point of blowing things up if the explosions aren't going to be fabulous?!

What are the rules for the curtainfall relic?? Sounds interesting...

barnacle111 wrote:
What are the rules for the curtainfall relic?? Sounds interesting...

Its locked to a specific masque. That killed its usefulness for me.

 mokoshkana wrote:

barnacle111 wrote:
What are the rules for the curtainfall relic?? Sounds interesting...

Its locked to a specific masque. That killed its usefulness for me.

They're locked to the "make an attack after dying on a 4+" form, which is pretty good for DJ.
A vanguard detachment with 3 DJ would be good if we had a good HQ to go with. Sadly the Shadowseer/TM auras only work on units of the same masque, so locking them to that Masque isn't great. The psychic powers don't have such restrictions, so I suppose a Shadowseer + 3DJ is still somewhat of an option.

Edit: oh, and we were wondering who would use the single shot option from Curtainfall, as the multi-shot is better. But when you die and roll your 4+, you can make a single shot, so I guess that's what it's for

I think only the single shot gets d3 mortal wounds of you kill? So like the index... that's what he seemed to be on striking scorpions review.

barnacle111 wrote:
I think only the single shot gets d3 mortal wounds of you kill? So like the index... that's what he seemed to be on striking scorpions review.

According to the miniwargaming review, both types get the D3.
They spoke of a combo:

DJ with curtainfall + strat that lets each hit count as 2 but each 6+ as 3 + strat that gives +1S and D3 damage = lots of dead guys followed by lots of mortal wounds.

Of course, though, only one DJ can take the Curtainfall.