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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Eldenfirefly wrote:
Curious, how useful do you guys think it would be to allocate 100 points to 2 squads of cultists for possible engage on all fronts or ROD.


From my limited experience (all of five games, all 1000pts or less)... not particularly. Thousands Sons lean on their unit durability, especially to damage 1 weapons, a lot- your opponent is going to be cursing and wondering if there isn't anything else to shoot with all his tac marine's bolters or what-not. A couple of units that will be immediately splattered by incidental mid-range bolter fire from a half-squad of marines is going to just sort of... vanish and not even have the grace to distract anything worthwhile from the better weapons shooting Rubrics.

If this were a Guard, or even AdMech, army, and those low-durability-squads were backed up but a boatload more just like them too... might be worth it. If your opponent has to choose between shooting one set of t3 w1 s5+ guts and a dozen others, somebody's going to survive to provide engage. Thousand Sons is not that army.

Consider instead taking a big squad of Rubrics and then dropping 1CP to action-and-shoot them for ROD, or just plopping them down someplace (via Temporal Surge, Sorcerous Facade, Rhino, Risen Rubricae, a million ways to do it) for Engage on All Fronts. That way you're scoring with something the enemy has to move to keep you from scoring (which, after all, is how you win the game), but will find it utterly obnoxious to do so without committing heavy hitters or considerable firepower. Then you also get a large amount of premium-grade high-AP shooting, plus a psyker to Mutate Landscape or just smite with. Way more expensive, sure, but it gets you something that plays to the army's core strengths.

   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




Cultists have seen some play in 2x10s and 1x30s.

I think it could be worth 1CP and 100 points to threaten a 12 point ROD/RND with them. If we get the rumoured CA change to having to take mono cults they will probably show up more for Time cults to make up for their slowness.

I assume the 30 man is for match ups where you put a 4++ and -1 to hit on them and put them in front of the 10 Scarabs to completely bubble wrap from them charges. The backup use in shooty matches is you just the 150 point cultists like a 115 point spawn unit to go get the point turn one while being a pain to shift.
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






If I had to take a couple of big units for objectives or bubble-wrapping or whatnot. I'd rather take Tzaangors. If only for the 5++.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.


how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




xerxeskingofking wrote:
GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.


how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.


I'm mixed. On the one hand, it reduces the benefits of taking two detachments, vice picking one and filling it out. All to the good- multiple-detachment shenanigans are particularly game-y way of going about things. This continues the trend away from 8th edition's actively providing benefits in the form of CP for taking minimum-cost blocks of otherwise unrelated dudes.

On the other, the entire point of having those multiple detachments in the first place was to let you simulate an army composed of several disparate groups, coming together to assist each other for whatever Fluff/Grimdark reasoning... even if it costs you something (less CP).

...Are we certain that this rule applies to subfactions like Thousand Sons Cults, as opposed to 'whole other codex' 'subfactions' like different Space Marine chapters?
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Its any <Keyword> faction has to be the same. So yes for Tsons it would all need to be the same <Great Cult>
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





I had already stopped taking multi-detachment armies as I found generally I would rather have the two CP over a few units having a different Cult Power, especially since I use Duplicity, which I want on every unit because in the middle/end of the game you never quit know who will be in the best position to use it. So that is not going to effect me at all. What is funny is the rule does not fix the most abused list with different faction keywords because <witch cult> and <Kabal> are different keywords, so DE players can still bring Black Heart and Strife. LoL.

As to the Cultist discussion above, I have used them in a few games as ten man objective monkeys and they tend to just die really easily. Maybe if they went down to 4 points they could be more easily squeezed in, but as of now, I never have the 50 extra points, or I have like 70 points which at that point might as well bring Tgors instead with their better T and 5++ for objective holding. Now if there was a way to make TS cultists Psykers, like with smite only, with a strat for a CP that would be really interesting. I mean this would make sense fluff wise as Mangus did summon crap tons of psykers from across the galaxy to Prosprio.
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






xerxeskingofking wrote:
GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.


how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.


Rest in peace Terminator phalanx of the cult of time.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Just an FYI to TS players after watching TTT video........

No points change to any unit in CA. Better than what happened to DG, guess no news is good news
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.

Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.

Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell

This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.

2x5 Scarabs
2x5 Rubrics - 2x Flamer 2x Bolter 1x Flamer Pistol
~ other stuff

I dunno...I'll noodle and let you know how it goes at the Feb tournament.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, I feel like Duplicity is easier to play for most players (me included). This is because master of misinformation is a really powerful warlord trait. Plus the Sorceror facade psychic allows you to reposition a unit every turn in a game where movement is key. And Tsons can only rely on temporal surge to move one unit quickly, this psychic allows us to yeet one unit and temporal surge another. Its just a lot more forgiving than the other cults.

I am still learning cult of time. When you are not duplicity, you really need to think at least one turn, or even two turns ahead on where you want to be. And your relic Umbralific crystal is super important. Smart opponents also target your other units and ignore your big terminator bloc. Cult of time is a lot less forgiving to play compared to duplicity. It feels like I need to play big units of rubrics to play with cult of time, and have at least a Rhino or two in order to give more movement to your rubrics coming out of your Rhinos.

Cult of Duplicity plays differently from cult of time, in composition and even in possibly secondaries.
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






 Daedalus81 wrote:
I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.

Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.

Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell

This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.

2x5 Scarabs
2x5 Rubrics - 2x Flamer 2x Bolter 1x Flamer Pistol
~ other stuff

I dunno...I'll noodle and let you know how it goes at the Feb tournament.


Nifty ! Make sure to report how that went !

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:
I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.

Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.

Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell

This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.

2x5 Scarabs
2x5 Rubrics - 2x Flamer 2x Bolter 1x Flamer Pistol
~ other stuff

I dunno...I'll noodle and let you know how it goes at the Feb tournament.


I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




shogun wrote:

I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.


Two five-Scarab units provides less buffing potential and single-point force/durability but it also doubles your count of Scarab Occult Sorcerers- double spellcasting and double psychic actions- and can be in two places at once, to hold multiple objectives or pressure multiple areas of the board.

On balance, I think I agree that having that single lump is generally better... but I can see how, if one is very confident in the base durability that even a five-man-squad is up to par, splitting them up can work out well.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

After two losses with my new TSons army, I finally won this evening. 65-51 and tabled my opponent

The Rubric flamer brick was unstoppable, and the Scarabs (buffed by an Infernal Master) did a load of work. The first half of the game was spent dishing out a whole load of psychic and flamer pain, then Ahriman's manoeuvrability along with Sorcerous Facade on other units was critical in gaining enough VP in the final rounds. The Chaos Land Raider wasn't exceptional, but it did hold the back objective and contribute shooting where needed to supplement the other units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 06:53:07


https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
[1,100] Ultramarines
[1,800] Chaos Knights
[1,100] Thousand Sons
[1,100] Grey Knights 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

New FAQ out, not sure what's been changed though as the document is showing as updated but no changes are highlighted.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




xerxeskingofking wrote:
New FAQ out, not sure what's been changed though as the document is showing as updated but no changes are highlighted.


Huh. They took Malicious Volleys away from the Helbrute, just as I got my two assembled. Annoying... though I suppose Dreadnoughts in general really don't need the help in 40k 9th.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hmm, just want some thoughts on this. What do you guys think about putting Ardent automata for 20 points on a big block of 10 Scarab Occult Terminators.

Ardent autotmata allows you to do an action and still shoot. Now, hear me out, I am not going to use this very often. But... there are selected situations this might have tactical plays and they mainly have to do with Ubralific crystal.

1) I can crystal the Occult terminators onto a midpoint objective and raise a banner there and still shoot with them, if I want to go for aggressive play and I took raise the banners. This works in games where I am pretty sure I will be able to survive fine on that point and I won't get charged on turn 1.

2) For Retrieve Data. This oddly works well. I save the crystal until turn 4 or 5 where most opponents simply won't have the assets left to screen out an entire quarter of their board. And then I crystal the terminators there, they do Retrieve Data and still get to shoot with all of their guns. So, I might be able to shoot an opponent off his back point, plus I get to do retrieve data which will surely off since its a big block of terminators.

BTW, can I clarify one more thing? Temporal surge. Can I cast that to move a terminator squad that is engaged in close combat to move them out of engagement range and they can then still shoot and charge ? Or is this considered falling back even though its done via casting a psychic? The wording for temporal surge is "blah blah blah, that unit can make a normal move"

Now, in the core rules, it says that there is "normal move", and there is "fall back". Normal move definition is actually, just move and cannot end within engagement range of an enemy unit. It also says that units in engagement Range can only either "fall back" or stay stationary. However, does Temporal surge overide that and still make a unit engaged in close combat get to "normal move" out of combat.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/02/06 00:46:37


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:


BTW, can I clarify one more thing? Temporal surge. Can I cast that to move a terminator squad that is engaged in close combat to move them out of engagement range and they can then still shoot and charge ? Or is this considered falling back even though its done via casting a psychic? The wording for temporal surge is "blah blah blah, that unit can make a normal move"

Now, in the core rules, it says that there is "normal move", and there is "fall back". Normal move definition is actually, just move and cannot end within engagement range of an enemy unit. It also says that units in engagement Range can only either "fall back" or stay stationary. However, does Temporal surge overide that and still make a unit engaged in close combat get to "normal move" out of combat.


No that is not allowed:

Rulebook:

"If a unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy models when it is selected to move, it cannot make a Normal Move or Advance; it can either Remain Stationary or it can Fall Back."
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





shogun wrote:
I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.


There's a double edged sword here.

10 man SoT are less flexible, require more CP to protect, and more room to deepstrike or crystal. It also makes it easier for the opponent to focus on on where the "problems are".

Whether or not the loss in raw output is worth the increase in flexibility is TBD. Though it seems Custodes are going to be a huge problem and I'm still noodling that since my store has a Custodes guy who I play regularly.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:
shogun wrote:
I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.


There's a double edged sword here.

10 man SoT are less flexible, require more CP to protect, and more room to deepstrike or crystal. It also makes it easier for the opponent to focus on on where the "problems are".

Whether or not the loss in raw output is worth the increase in flexibility is TBD. Though it seems Custodes are going to be a huge problem and I'm still noodling that since my store has a Custodes guy who I play regularly.


I disagree, Dropping in 10 terminators turn 1 with crystal actually gives them more mid field flexibility. The enemy cannot remove them from the objective and my Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerer are better protected standing behind them. If the opponent ignores them then the can temperal surge everywhere and keep shooting everything. Thousand sons use rubric marines for objective grapping and don't need to rely on 5 unit terminators. Dropping in terminators turn 2 is to late because most times the enemy moves agressive turn 1 and makes it hard to deepstrike close. The only downside is the expensive -1 damage against shooting stratagem (3CP).

I don't know about the new custodes rules but I do know that 10 terminators with +1 to hit (presage), reroll 1 to hit aura, +1 Strenght for shooting (infernal master) and +1 to wound stratagem still hurts. Bolter/ reaper cannon shots don't care about 4+ inv save or -1damage and forces a gakload of 4+saves.
   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




I think 10 Scarabs have been the MVP of every win I've had. They are the 430~450 point lynchpin unit you wish Primarchs were.

10 - 5 - 5 has been good to me. I've been trying to resist getting the second squad of 10 for a long time, but my losses tend to be situations where the 10 man has to be sacrificed (or I mess up) and then there is no where to drop the good buffs. That is where second breakfast/10 man comes in.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yup. I think 10 Occult terminators in one squad are the way to go. Buffs stack so well on a big squad of ten. Plus if you take two squads of ten instead of 10, 5, 5, then you can take the To the Last secondary quite comfortably. Its no mean feat to kill two squads of ten Occults. Meanwhile, its easier to kill two squads of 5 Occults as opposed to one big squad of 10.
   
Made in pl
Been Around the Block






Dropping in 10 terminators turn 1 with crystal actually gives them more mid field flexibility. The enemy cannot remove them from the objective


There are some units that You will not want to be anywhere near with 10 Scarabs. 3+ damage weapons instakills them and they dont have have high S weapons for combat. Dreadnoughts, high T monsters. Even a lousy rhino can charge them and survive.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:Yup. I think 10 Occult terminators in one squad are the way to go. Buffs stack so well on a big squad of ten. Plus if you take two squads of ten instead of 10, 5, 5, then you can take the To the Last secondary quite comfortably. Its no mean feat to kill two squads of ten Occults. Meanwhile, its easier to kill two squads of 5 Occults as opposed to one big squad of 10.


Yes, 'to the last secondary' is also a good reason. I also forgot to mention that you can increase the charge range with reviving 1 or 2 terminators and assault with the full unit into something juicy. And don't forget the ' inescapable forewarding' stratagem. a 18 inch bubble with free shooting option if a enemy unit drops down (out of reserve or teleport..)

Eldenfirefly wrote:There are some units that You will not want to be anywhere near with 10 Scarabs. 3+ damage weapons instakills them and they dont have have high S weapons for combat. Dreadnoughts, high T monsters. Even a lousy rhino can charge them and survive.


True, the are not invincible. But the -1 to hit and 4++ really helps. With that it is not a big problem if a few D3 attacks hit them. But we are comparing 10 terminators with 2x5 terminators. 10 terminators can get a -1 damage against shooting, keep reviving models even after losing 5 terminators and use the +1 to wound in close combat. With a +1 to wound and presage it is possible to kill a rhino with 6 terminators hitting back.

I don't see why anybody would pick 2x5 terminators because then it is better to go full rubric marines.


   
Made in pl
Been Around the Block






2x5 Terminators instead of Rubrics maybe when expecting a lot of D2 weapons.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Just a quick tip I have found helpful. I ordered large (golf ball size)blank D6 from Amazon for like $5. I put on one 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for smite and the other 4,5,6,7,8,9 for mutate. Whenever I use smite I turn the smite dice and same with mutate. It has really helped keep track of how many smites have been cases and what is needed and also helps me remember that mutate also goes up (I forgot this a time or two). Hope this is helpful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/17 23:49:28


 
   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




 xeen wrote:
Just a quick tip I have found helpful. I ordered large (golf ball size) D6 from Amazon for like $5. I put on one 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for smite and the other 4,5,6,7,8,9 for mutate. Whenever I use smite I turn the smite dice and same with mutate. It has really helped keep track of how many smites have been cases and what is needed and also helps me remember that mutate also goes up (I forgot this a time or two). Hope this is helpful.

Superb idea.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





So I played against custodus... damn these jetbikes are fast and tough. My 10 terminators can really take a punch but 6 Praetors bikes and a captain really is too much. I played a double tournament and my companion finished them off (grey knight dreadknights) after the removed my terminators. I failed the 'weaver of fates' power so no 4++ for the terminators, so that didn't help.

The 10 terminator setup is still the best way to deal with them but I also need a decent counter. You have to create the situation that the bikes will always be punished after the charged a unit.
My 2000 point list will include 5+4 spawns that i'am going to keep close or simply shield the terminators with them.

Removing the invulnerable save is also crucial if you hit back with ap3 swords or shoot with reaper cannons.


   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




I have a feeling it might end up similar to my pre Nachmund Dark Eldar games. You get to turn 3/4 and the DE (now AC) just seem to have 1 unit (or 2 small units) too many and then the domino effect happens.

I am very unhappy that the 4+++ chapter seems to be the best and most popular chapter. I was really hoping it would be one of the other ones.
   
 
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