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Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 Kanluwen wrote:
Sucks for you then. My Cadians are going to be just fine.


At least you're honest about your "I've got mine, screw you" GW apologism.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Bluntly?

You're the only one causing problems for yourself.

This isn't like Skitarii, where they flatout janked that unit profile. Or like any of the CSM stuff where they did the same thing.

You literally can fix the problem yourself. But for some reason, you're acting like your fan-created stuff should be enshrined and treated as official lore.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Southampton, UK

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bluntly?

You're the only one causing problems for yourself.

This isn't like Skitarii, where they flatout janked that unit profile. Or like any of the CSM stuff where they did the same thing.

You literally can fix the problem yourself. But for some reason, you're acting like your fan-created stuff should be enshrined and treated as official lore.


What on earth are you talking about? A standard Guard squad has been 10 men including a special weapon and a heavy weapon team for the last 30 or so years. Nothing fan-made about it.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Optional upgrades are optional.

Additionally, heavy weapons were detached from the HW platoons so wouldn't have the same unit markings...which are the self-created problems I referred to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 21:14:39


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.

Removing veterans seems like it must be motivated by the no-model-no-rule policy, which has never been in the best interest of the hobbiest.

Since Scions are available as troop choices under some circumstances, maybe they just want to encourage players to build armies with those models?

Honestly, I just hope they bring back the old Infantry Platoon in some form or other. That was so central to the guard's identity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 21:30:24


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

Those same people are the ones who kept telling me to suck it up when I had to pull apart my Sergeants and Officers after the Doctrines book went to the Cruddace book. They're the same ones who told me to suck it up when GW just recently flipped Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard loadouts onto their head.

They'll be fine.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.

This is all assuming that infantry squads are staying. Cadian Shock Troops, Catachan Jungle Fighters, and Death Korps all are getting their own unit profiles.

Removing veterans seems like it must be motivated by the no-model-no-rule policy, which has never been in the best interest of the hobbiest.

Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".

Since Scions are available as troop choices under some circumstances, maybe they just want to encourage players to build armies with those models?

There's no "circumstances". They're just plain Troop choices.

Honestly, I just hope they bring back the old Infantry Platoon in some form or other. That was so central to the guard's identity.

It really wasn't though. It just reinforced Cruddace's trashy trope of Stalingradian Guardsmen.

Anyways, I've been saying for YEARS that Infantry Squads were going to lose Heavy Weapon Teams. And there's literally no excuse to be this upset, as unless you're working exclusively with the old metal squad boxes? You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.


If I had to guess I'd say it's because they want to keep releasing variant plastic guardsmen squads (such as Catachan or Steel Legion) via Kill Team in future, without the baggage of matching heavy weapons dudes.

The new rules seem designed to let people mix up different squads without needing to re-buy or re-paint the entire army.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 xttz wrote:
 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.


If I had to guess I'd say it's because they want to keep releasing variant plastic guardsmen squads (such as Catachan or Steel Legion) via Kill Team in future, without the baggage of matching heavy weapons dudes.

The new rules seem designed to let people mix up different squads without needing to re-buy or re-paint the entire army.

Catachans are coming with the codex, per OK_E...but how large of a release is not yet known.
   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 Kanluwen wrote:
You literally can fix the problem yourself.


Scrapping existing units is not an acceptable solution. Changing the rules for how these units work after literal decades of people building units that way is a complete TFG move by GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Optional upgrades are optional.

Additionally, heavy weapons were detached from the HW platoons so wouldn't have the same unit markings...which are the self-created problems I referred to.


"It's all your fault for using the options that were provided."

Is there a limit to your GW apologism? Is there any line they can cross where you won't white knight for them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Those same people are the ones who kept telling me to suck it up when I had to pull apart my Sergeants and Officers after the Doctrines book went to the Cruddace book. They're the same ones who told me to suck it up when GW just recently flipped Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard loadouts onto their head.


That's certainly a theory you can have. In the real world, no, I haven't told you any of those things. And regardless of what these hypothetical "same people" have said in the past it's still a profoundly stupid and anti-consumer move by GW to do this.

Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".


Not interesting to you maybe. Some of us like having elite guardsmen with improved stats and better gear. But at least your position here fits with your stated "I've got mine, screw you" approach to the game, if you don't like a particular unit why should anyone else be able to use it?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.


Who cares what's in the box? How GW chooses to package their units is irrelevant and "no model no rules" is a profoundly stupid approach to game design. Or do you think that a plasma gun should be a separate unit because you can buy a box of 10 plasma guns?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/12 21:49:44


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Kanluwen wrote:
From earlier on, it's been noted that regular squads are going to 2 specials and no heavies.


Just Cadian Shock Troops isn't it? He's said that they are getting their own entry (kind of replacing 'Veterans', so Vets are now represented as surviving Cadian squads adopted by other regiments)
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
You literally can fix the problem yourself.


Scrapping existing units is not an acceptable solution. Changing the rules for how these units work after literal decades of people building units that way is a complete TFG move by GW.

Oh no, GW's actually paying attention to Guard as more than just a cursory reprinting of older rules! Whatever shall we do?!

This change is long overdue.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Optional upgrades are optional.

Additionally, heavy weapons were detached from the HW platoons so wouldn't have the same unit markings...which are the self-created problems I referred to.


"It's all your fault for using the options that were provided."

Is there a limit to your GW apologism? Is there any line they can cross where you won't white knight for them?

Ah, ad hominems. Boy howdy.



 Kanluwen wrote:
Those same people are the ones who kept telling me to suck it up when I had to pull apart my Sergeants and Officers after the Doctrines book went to the Cruddace book. They're the same ones who told me to suck it up when GW just recently flipped Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard loadouts onto their head.


That's certainly a theory you can have. In the real world, no, I haven't told you any of those things. And regardless of what these hypothetical "same people" have said in the past it's still a profoundly stupid and anti-consumer move by GW to do this.

Yes, it's so much more stupid and anti-consumer than--say--having an army that requires almost 3x the price for an initial buy-in as other armies.

Where a single troops choice requires you to buy 3 separate boxes just to fill out the options. And not because you're doing duplicates or a larger than base unit. But because the kits are older than some of your bloody customers.

If you want me to specify "it's the same type of person" rather than "these are literally the exact same people", sure thing then. You're the same type of person who told me those things.

Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".


Not interesting to you maybe. Some of us like having elite guardsmen with improved stats and better gear.

looool.
What better gear? You got 2 more special weapon options. You didn't get Carapace Armor, you didn't get anything unique or interesting to showcase how they were veterans.

Literally anything and everything for Veterans is "they get more special weapon options!".
But at least your position here fits with your stated "I've got mine, screw you" approach to the game, if you don't like a particular unit why should anyone else be able to use it?

Or maybe, just maybe, I didn't like them because there were far far more interesting design concepts that got axed to keep people like yourself who wanted to keep a status quo intact happy? Units like the Kasrkin, concepts like the Grenadiers or Detachment 99's unique version of Special Weapon Squads were far, far, faaaaaaaaar more interesting.

Veterans were boring. They've been boring for some time. They provided nothing unique or interesting to the army, given that they were simply Infantry Squads +1. One of the few things Cruddace's book did okay was the addition of veteran skills/"traits"(really these were just loadouts).


 Kanluwen wrote:
You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.


Who cares what's in the box? How GW chooses to package their units is irrelevant and "no model no rules" is a profoundly stupid approach to game design.

You're rambling about how unjust it is that you get treated this way and that you have to fix it.

There's nothing to fix. You had the answer all along.
Or do you think that a plasma gun should be a separate unit because you can buy a box of 10 plasma guns?

I mean, ideally they should be seeing unique and special units for different types of special weapons. The training would be different, as would the role.

But being a Real Guard Player, you should know that.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





The Shire(s)

Veterans used to have things that made them interesting. In 3rd, they were this cool unit that could even take a veteran officer, to represent how they were the last remnants of a company or regiment. In 3.5th, they had infiltrate. In 5th, they could be upgraded to have carapace armour, camo cloaks and snare mines, or meltabombs and a demo charge (I think they could take all three too). That is quite a lot of different roles that vets could've been given.

Just turning them in to BS3 infantry and then removing them is the boring option.

Personally, I will be bummed out if special weapon squads and heavy weapon teams in infantry squads are removed. I have >100 Steel Legion as my primary army, and they came with a missile launcher in every squad. It is pretty difficult to find somewhere to use the heavy weapons teams if I can't squeeze them into infantry squads. At present, I have three platoons, and I've already extracted enough weapons teams to make a heavy weapons squad per platoon. I have also built a special weapons squad per platoon.

Is it the end of the world if GW near totally invalidates my army? No. But it will be very annoying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 22:33:07


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Tastyfish wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
From earlier on, it's been noted that regular squads are going to 2 specials and no heavies.


Just Cadian Shock Troops isn't it?

NOPE.
He's said that they are getting their own entry

Correct.
(kind of replacing 'Veterans', so Vets are now represented as surviving Cadian squads adopted by other regiments)

NOPE.

Veterans are just flatout gone.

Additionally:
ust a little bit of information for you

You won't be running pure cadians (of course you could) You will be able to mix and match different regiments into one force.

Your army bonus doesn't care that half is catachan and the other krieg, you'll still get your army rule.

The only benefit in running say a unit of catachan is to use a strat like "vicious traps"

In enemy charge phase spend X cp When a unit is charged and is in terrain, roll a d6 +1 if unit is catachan or guerrillas +1 if unit has a melta mine +1 if sly marbo is on the battlefield

On a 2-5 the enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, on a 6+ the enemy unit suffers 2d3 mortal wounds



See, Haighus is the kind of Guard player I'd have sympathy for. There was no way to know about this down the line way back when.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 22:35:42


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





The Shire(s)

Well, I bought quite a lot of them fairly recently, I love the sculpts.

To be honest, I don't really play anymore, so I tend to build my armies to the background/incorporating aspects of old rules even if they don't matter anymore, rather than the current rules (which are a shadow of what they used to be). I miss all the cool stuff like demo charges and carapace armour and chem-inhalers.

Also, technically GW do sell a veterans unit these days- the Krieg squad is explicitly labelled as veterans and is listed in the AM section on the webstore.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

It's also labelled as Kill Team product first and lets you build a bunch of options that Veterans don't get.
   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh no, GW's actually paying attention to Guard as more than just a cursory reprinting of older rules! Whatever shall we do?!


If "paying attention" means deleting stuff for no good reason then I'd rather keep the current codex forever. I want a real codex, not more "no model no rules" idiocy.

This change is long overdue.


"People have been having fun in ways I don't like for too long!"

Yes, it's so much more stupid and anti-consumer than--say--having an army that requires almost 3x the price for an initial buy-in as other armies.


Which is because guard require more models than space marines, not because you have special/heavy weapon options. Unless you want to make guard 15ppm elites like space marines they're going to be more expensive.

You're the same type of person who told me those things.


That is certainly a theory you can have. It's nonsense, but I suppose you're allowed to believe that my opposition to GW removing options and invalidating existing armies makes me just like all the people who think it's fine for GW to remove options and invalidate existing armies.

What better gear? You got 2 more special weapon options. You didn't get Carapace Armor, you didn't get anything unique or interesting to showcase how they were veterans.


"GW removed some options, instead of putting them back they should remove the unit entirely."

PS: having BS 3+ is still a relevant fact.

Or maybe, just maybe, I didn't like them because there were far far more interesting design concepts that got axed to keep people like yourself who wanted to keep a status quo intact happy? Units like the Kasrkin, concepts like the Grenadiers or Detachment 99's unique version of Special Weapon Squads were far, far, faaaaaaaaar more interesting.


In what bizarre alternate world does "don't remove options" mean "remove a bunch of old options and never add anything interesting"?

You had the answer all along.


And the answer was "an infantry squad can take one heavy and one special weapon". How GW packaged their kits made no difference in any previous edition and "each unit must be made from a single box and each box must make a specific unit" is an idiotic approach to game design.

I mean, ideally they should be seeing unique and special units for different types of special weapons. The training would be different, as would the role.


No, I mean literally a plasma gun. Not a model with a plasma gun, the boxes of 10 plasma/melta/etc weapons that GW sells: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/legiones-astartes-missile-launchers-and-heavy-bolters-2022

Should the Baneblade accessories sprue be a separate unit? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Baneblade-Sponsons-And-Accessories

How dare GW sell kits you're expected to combine with other kits to make a complete unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 23:36:13


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yes, it's so much more stupid and anti-consumer than--say--having an army that requires almost 3x the price for an initial buy-in as other armies.


Which is because guard require more models than space marines, not because you have special/heavy weapon options. Unless you want to make guard 15ppm elites like space marines they're going to be more expensive.

It's literally because you have special and heavy weapon options that aren't included in the box for your basic troops choice.

The fact that you don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge that is troubling.


You had the answer all along.


And the answer was "an infantry squad can take one heavy and one special weapon". How GW packaged their kits made no difference in any previous edition and "each unit must be made from a single box and each box must make a specific unit" is an idiotic approach to game design.

It's a better approach to game design than "let's keep everything the same forever", which has been the previous approach to Guard.

I mean, ideally they should be seeing unique and special units for different types of special weapons. The training would be different, as would the role.


No, I mean literally a plasma gun. Not a model with a plasma gun, the boxes of 10 plasma/melta/etc weapons that GW sells: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/legiones-astartes-missile-launchers-and-heavy-bolters-2022

Mate, did you actually read what you posted a link to?
Upgrade your MKVI Tactical Squad Legionaries into Tactical Support Squads
Contains 60 special weapons - flamers, meltaguns, plasma guns, rotor cannons, volkite calivers, and volkite chargers
Outfit up to 12 separate squads with guns to suit any situation


Also, frigging lol throwing out a link to the Horus Heresy. Literally a spot where there are entire squads, across multiple factions, devoted to carrying specific weapon types.

Should the Baneblade accessories sprue be a separate unit? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Baneblade-Sponsons-And-Accessories

And at this point it's obvious just how hard you're grasping at straws.

How dare GW sell kits you're expected to combine with other kits to make a complete unit.

So your argument is what? That Guard should get specific weapon sprues, like the Heresy units do?

That'd be nice. It's not the case though. You have to buy a Heavy Weapon Squad box to get a HWT and a Command Squad box to fully outfit a Catachan squad with the Codex options. Cadians are a bit better off since it's just the new-est version of the Cadian Shock Troops box and a HWS box but y'know...that's still making it so you have to buy multiple boxes for a single Troops choice.



ANYWAYS...
Command Squads are our HQ option now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/13 00:01:29


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
You have to buy a Heavy Weapon Squad box to get a HWT and a Command Squad box to fully outfit a Catachan squad with the Codex options.

O RLY?



What's that then? GW was selling plasma/melta/flamer packs since forever and explicitly told you to use these with IG (have you ever seen photos of featured GW staff Guard armies? maybe look them up?) if you had too little special weapons, yes they were removed recently but you can use the exact same process with plastic HH guns that replaced them. You only "had" to buy if you were incapable of making a simple snip so that's not an issue. You don't "need" to buy anything, using it as excuse for removal of veterans is stupid. Replacing them with regimental units is not really a solution either because that leaves other/custom regiments with nothing, there needs to be a generic veteran unit these can take.

And "it's just more special guns" is comically stupid take, not only they have different stat line, but by that logic, we should delete nobz (just boyz with more melee weapons), hive tyrants (just bigger warriors), 80% of Sister range, aspect warriors and DE noble squads, etc, etc...
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Kanluwen wrote:
 Tastyfish wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
From earlier on, it's been noted that regular squads are going to 2 specials and no heavies.


Just Cadian Shock Troops isn't it?

NOPE.
He's said that they are getting their own entry

Correct.
(kind of replacing 'Veterans', so Vets are now represented as surviving Cadian squads adopted by other regiments)

NOPE.

Veterans are just flatout gone.

Additionally:
See, Haighus is the kind of Guard player I'd have sympathy for. There was no way to know about this down the line way back when.


All we know* is that Cadian Shock Troops get an entry as something distinct and that they have two special weapons and share a sprue with Kasrkin. He's said nothing about what the common infantry squad looks like and to me looks like the opposite. Command squads exist, heavy weapon squads exist - I assume infantry do too and that Cadian Shock Troopers are something different, even if you had an army of them.

They're either elite, experienced infantry squads in a Cadian regiment (or a regiment of just Cadian Shock Troopers), or the remnants of Cadian units backfilled and absorbed by other Regiments. In a word, a Veteran squad within another newly raised regiment, was what I was implying. There is not veteran option outside of Kill team, but the Cadians are a close match having more special weapons than normal and probably better stats/rules. I.E Veterans got extra rules (+the Cadian keyword) but lost the third special weapon.

*I believe him. I don't expect the 'Cadian veterans' can double up on special weapons either, given Krieg veterans are a box, but I could be suprised. Command squads definitely aren't going to.
I've done a run through recently, I've not seen anything saying that infantry squads are changing but I'd be easily convinced by something I've overlooked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/13 01:09:22


 
   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 Kanluwen wrote:
It's literally because you have special and heavy weapon options that aren't included in the box for your basic troops choice.


Cadian box: $50, includes all special weapon and sergeant options.

HWT: $14 ($42 per three squads), includes all heavy weapon options. If you're willing to do a bit of conversion work you can drop this cost even further by using all of the different heavy weapons to arm 6+ squads from a single box.

A 28% increase in the cost of a basic troops box is not why a guard army costs 3x as much as whatever you're comparing it to.

It's a better approach to game design than "let's keep everything the same forever", which has been the previous approach to Guard.


Stop making straw man arguments. Keeping existing units valid does not mean that nothing can ever change. You can have all the shiny new options you like as long as the existing options are still included.

Mate, did you actually read what you posted a link to?
Upgrade your MKVI Tactical Squad Legionaries into Tactical Support Squads
Contains 60 special weapons - flamers, meltaguns, plasma guns, rotor cannons, volkite calivers, and volkite chargers
Outfit up to 12 separate squads with guns to suit any situation


Exactly! Here you have a box of plasma guns intended to be used to upgrade other units, creating a single unit from multiple boxes. By your absurd "one box = one unit" argument this should not be permitted and the plasma guns should be a separate unit. So should the Baneblade sponsons and upgrades, you should have a unit with four sponsons on 60mm bases and the hunter-killer missile and pintle guns on 25mm bases.

So your argument is what? That Guard should get specific weapon sprues, like the Heresy units do?


I don't care how they're packaged. Existing units should continue to be valid, period.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/13 01:29:08


 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Aecus Decimus wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
How are they being invalidated? Your heavy weapon squad models can still be used, just not as part of a regular guardsman squad.


Many of us build and paint units as complete units with squad markings, names and stories, etc. "Just use the models in some other unit" is not an acceptable solution.
Nothing you listed makes "use the models in a different unit" an unacceptable solution. Squad markings, names, stories etc can all be changed relatively easily.

Like there are people who own things like Chaos Lords on bikes, things that are literally useless paperweights now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/13 01:32:36


 
   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nothing you listed makes "use the models in a different unit" an unacceptable solution. Squad markings, names, stories etc can all be changed relatively easily.


Maybe if your standards for painting aren't that high. Painting over existing stuff creates all kinds of problems with color matching, keeping consistency with weathering, etc. And it's still modifying a model I was perfectly happy with already.

Like there are people who own things like Chaos Lords on bikes, things that are literally useless paperweights now.


One profoundly stupid decision by GW does not justify making more profoundly stupid decisions.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

GW is gonna do GW things, like it or not. I'll admit that how the IG have been set up has been relatively static for 20+ years. Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a net positive though.

I'm firmly in the "non models, no rules" is silly camp. GW isn't doing this to make the game easier to understand or easier for beginners. If they wanted to do that they need to look to their rules first. When people say that "well, heavy weapons aren't in the troops box", well yes that's true. However they are also redoing the Catachans, and perhaps Cadians too. There's no reason they couldn't have made a new sprue with heavy weapons if that was their concern.

In the end though, we do need to adapt to GW when they want to lay down new rules. It's not the end of the world, but let's not pretend it doesn't royally suck for some people too.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Optional upgrades are optional.
You are so full of crap, it is just mind boggling how anyone can have the ball-tearingly arrogant "don't care, got mine" attitude you not only have, but lord over everyone as if they're stupid for not being you.

Guard Squads with heavy weapons has been a staple of that faction pretty much since their inception. Even the old RT-era kits had heavy weapons included in their sprues. When it came to 2nd Ed they introduced major mechanics around the heavy weapon teams within Guard squads. They've been part of the Guard ever since. It's been over THIRTY YEARS of Guard with heavy weapons, and you're just going to pretend like they were an "optional upgrade".

Guess what Kan: So are special weapons, but they're not going anywhere?

You are IMPOSSIBLE.

 Kanluwen wrote:
OK_E wrote:There is no more special weapons or veteran squads anymore

I feel okay with this.
Cool. I love it when things from my army get taken away!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ah, ad hominems. Boy howdy.
That's not what an ad hominem is.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
"It's all your fault for using the options that were provided."

Is there a limit to your GW apologism? Is there any line they can cross where you won't white knight for them?
There is no limit. He's been blaming the players for every little thing for years and years now. In his mind, GW can do no wrong, unless they happen to do something to one of his pet armies (Cadians, AdMech, etc.). Then he gets really angry, but also mostly still blames the players for making GW do whatever they did.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/08/13 03:13:39


 
   
Made in us
Speed Drybrushing





Tangentville, New Jersey

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How are they being invalidated? Your heavy weapon squad models can still be used, just not as part of a regular guardsman squad.

Ugh, this sucks! One of my infantry squads is an RT penal legion and I did a lot of work to get them a matching HW team. Now I'll have an orphaned Heavy Bolter team and I'll need to find two more RT penal legionaires

(It's also probably a good thing I never finished my special weapon squads I guess?)


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".

Anyways, I've been saying for YEARS that Infantry Squads were going to lose Heavy Weapon Teams. And there's literally no excuse to be this upset, as unless you're working exclusively with the old metal squad boxes? You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.


Regarding the first point: in different editions, Veterans had increased stats, the option for an integrated commander, additional special rules, the option to take explosives and carapace armour, and the extra weapon options that you mention. But their main draw - at least for me - has always been their narrative. They were a way for me to make my army feel more "enduring" than a typical IG meat grinder force. They felt like a great way to personalize my own collection. There really wasn't anything terrible about this unit concept, as far as I can see, and I'm sad to see them removed.

On the second point...it seems like you've given exactly the reason why people might feel rightfully upset for this change. If I invested in extra models, took the time to paint them as part of that unit, and built my army in part around those units, I think I'd feel quite justifiably miffed if GW then told me that those models which I had purchased and painted to match the rest of the infantry squads were now no longer usable in that way. I'm not suggesting it's some sort of unforgivable offense, or even that GW doesn't have a good reason for this change (though I can't really imagine what it is), but it's just silly to say that other people had "literally no excuse" for being sucker-punched by GW after investing time and money into their army. I mean, come on, friend. You must see that. (And I say all this as someone who never actually added a HW team to a single infantry squad)
   
Made in fr
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator




 crumby_cataphract wrote:
(though I can't really imagine what it is)


"No model, no rules". GW's current position is that two things must be true: each unit is built from exactly one box, each box builds exactly one unit. GW is pushing out the sand box philosophy of giving broad (and fluff-accurate) rules and encouraging conversions in favor of a very narrow theme park concept. The goal is that an e-sport player or 16 year old with no attention span buys a box, builds it exactly according to the directions, and uses the matching datasheet in game. Conversions are bad because they require you to think outside the box, not just follow the directions and receive instant gratification. And the e-sport players will rage if the one-box build is 5% less effective than a conversion because having to convert their models takes away precious practice time.

Of course I'm sure Kanluwen will be along shortly to white knight and inform us of how having fewer options is better and you're an idiot for building units according to the printed rules instead of a "no model, no rules" policy that didn't exist when many of those units were built.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Those are some interesting takes there, Kan. They feel absolutely bonkers to me, but interesting nonetheless.

I don't really feel like having to mess around with my 250 guards to see what I have to fix to make them useable, so I guess I won't be needing anything for the army when GW releases the new stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/13 07:48:07


 
   
Made in de
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Knee deep in bone ash, gore and mud

Well I'm taking this update with an unhealthy amount of gallows humor.

It's like the opposite of the LoV release, where by now we have so many Mary Sue stories I'm starting to wonder when the grim dark will set in. For guard it's only grim dark so far, less options, less flexibility and the only thing "new" so far is, that they invest in a model update that was due 10 years ago.

From a strategical point I don't really mind the loss of veterans and special weapon squads. Their identity was so diluted from their 3rd edition implementation, they were basically redundant to the Command squad.

But I'm curious how they plan on ever selling a HWT again if they can't be part of a unit? HWS are pointless, to put it mildly. When comparatively a Manticore could be in that Heavy Support slot. I had hoped Platoons would come back, but alas....

And in addition they drop Regiments in total? So back to 5th but this time without the Special Characters to destinct your Army? While every other Army, besides Demons, has more destinctions than ever?

I always felt GW didn't know feth all what to make with Guard, hence they are on the last slot, hardly mentioned in the BRB and their balancing updates completely bonkers. This sounds like they just want to get over with it.

So waiting for the good news it is and gallow humor until then. Btw, food for thought about the release schedule: the Angron leak had the new Cadians in it. So likely it is a picture out of their Dex, hence that one is rather likely to be published after IG.
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






Aecus Decimus wrote:
 crumby_cataphract wrote:
(though I can't really imagine what it is)


"No model, no rules". GW's current position is that two things must be true: each unit is built from exactly one box, each box builds exactly one unit. GW is pushing out the sand box philosophy of giving broad (and fluff-accurate) rules and encouraging conversions in favor of a very narrow theme park concept. The goal is that an e-sport player or 16 year old with no attention span buys a box, builds it exactly according to the directions, and uses the matching datasheet in game. Conversions are bad because they require you to think outside the box, not just follow the directions and receive instant gratification. And the e-sport players will rage if the one-box build is 5% less effective than a conversion because having to convert their models takes away precious practice time.

Of course I'm sure Kanluwen will be along shortly to white knight and inform us of how having fewer options is better and you're an idiot for building units according to the printed rules instead of a "no model, no rules" policy that didn't exist when many of those units were built.


I agree with everything you said, except the part where you started insulting people who’re looking for something different from the hobby than you are.
   
 
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