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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

There were more Labour MP's who voted against the Iraq War (84) and their own Party's Government, than Conservatives (2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Parliamentary_approval_for_the_invasion_of_Iraq


Not surprising. Despite their claims to try and get support, more tories voted against the gay marriage laws than for it. They generally don't seem to like voting for good things for people other than their specific donors and MPs.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is an unwritten rule that the government and opposition follow the same line in foreign policy, whatever their domestic disagreements.

Corbyn broke that rule. May is dishing out a consequence. Politics, if you like.


Feth that rule. Corbyn is right to not respect it. Thats how we got the Iraq War.


There is a very good reason for it. Public disagreement on foreign policy is something that can be exploited by foreign powers.


I just looked up one of the votes relating to the Iraq War. If the Conservative party had taken a party stance against the Iraq War and enough of their MP's voted against the motion ("That HM Government should use all means necessary to ensure the disarmament of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction"), the Iraq War might have been prevented.

There were more Labour MP's who voted against the Iraq War (84) and their own Party's Government, than Conservatives (2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Parliamentary_approval_for_the_invasion_of_Iraq


How people vote is irrelevant. The rule is not about preventing voting, its about the leader of the opposition not standing up and publicly criticising points of foreign policy. They can criticise in general. They can vote against it. What they should not be doing is publicly arguing with individual actions, as this is something other governments can exploit. It's not a written rule but a convention, , so it can be broken, but Corbyn has to suffer the consequences. He has no right to the information that is being withheld. The level of information that is being withheld is entirely at the discretion of the PM. It's not withholding anything, it is refusing to share.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 09:10:57


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43456502]The UK and EU agree terms for Brexit transition period

This is a big step forward, though it should be noted there are some pretty big items not resolved, such as the Irish Border.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Steve steveson wrote:


How people vote is irrelevant. The rule is not about preventing voting, its about the leader of the opposition not standing up and publicly criticising points of foreign policy. They can criticise in general. They can vote against it. What they should not be doing is publicly arguing with individual actions, as this is something other governments can exploit. It's not a written rule but a convention, , so it can be broken, but Corbyn has to suffer the consequences. He has no right to the information that is being withheld. The level of information that is being withheld is entirely at the discretion of the PM. It's not withholding anything, it is refusing to share.


I would argue quite the opposite. In times of stress and high emotion you want as much challenge as possible. Otherwise you end up making mistakes based on outrage, anger, feelings of impotence and so forth. Having someone less emotionally attached to the situation is much more useful.

You get that by having more people challenge your views and your approach. Just agreeing with the party in power's approach is an excuse to railroad through any old ridiculous notions or approaches that are never going to work.

On an aside it appears that Corbyn was right in questioning links between Tory donations and the Putin Cabinet.

Here we have Boris admitting that there £160k was given to the Tories just to play a tennis match with him. Person that paid the money...the wife of the former deputy finance minister for Putin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43448559

No potential conflict there at all. And they accuse Corbyn of being a target of interest from the 1970's....

But really, how is it acceptable this should even be allowed....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43456502]The UK and EU agree terms for Brexit transition period

This is a big step forward, though it should be noted there are some pretty big items not resolved, such as the Irish Border.


And in a nutshell, everything that May said she wouldn't agree to a couple of weeks ago....well she has agreed to....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/19 19:13:21


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Yarp, derp.

The Brexit chickens are beginning to come home to roost.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

I do wonder if David Davis actually understands the meaning of the word "negotiation". It appears he believes it means, "no no no no yes OK then."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/20/brexit-weekly-briefing-uk-major-concessions-transition-agreement-eu

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja






 r_squared wrote:
I do wonder if David Davis actually understands the meaning of the word "negotiation". It appears he believes it means, "no no no no yes OK then."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/20/brexit-weekly-briefing-uk-major-concessions-transition-agreement-eu


He'd make a good Bond girl.

I'm not sure at what point he dropped all the cards we apparently once held, but at least it is progress. Now they just have to do the same with NI, and presumably chuck Arlene £5Bn or so to keep quiet.
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Nisse




Luton, UK

 r_squared wrote:
It appears he believes it means, "no no no no yes OK then."



“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The Irish border issue is another case of kicking the can a bit farther down the road. The road runs out in October, though.

I think what will happen is that no-one will be able to invent a magic seamless customs system, and eventually NI will end up in a long term customs union with Eire and thereby the EU. In other words, the new border will be the Irish Sea.

Personally I think this is an acceptable situation, and we can hope that in 5-10 years the magic solution will be invented, or else the UK may rejoin the EU anyway. (I expect it to happen in 10-15 years.)

I expect the DUP to be completely alienated by this solution, but May will go with it anyway because it's more important to keep the Tory Party on side.

In other Brexit related news, here's another Big Brexy Bonus!




I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Irish border issue is another case of kicking the can a bit farther down the road. The road runs out in October, though.

I think what will happen is that no-one will be able to invent a magic seamless customs system, and eventually NI will end up in a long term customs union with Eire and thereby the EU. In other words, the new border will be the Irish Sea.

Personally I think this is an acceptable situation, and we can hope that in 5-10 years the magic solution will be invented, or else the UK may rejoin the EU anyway. (I expect it to happen in 10-15 years.)

I expect the DUP to be completely alienated by this solution, but May will go with it anyway because it's more important to keep the Tory Party on side.

In other Brexit related news, here's another Big Brexy Bonus!



Although I imagine that result will end up with government mired in court as Scotland/Wales/London all challenge the decision to provide a small element of the UK a special status not available to anyone else.

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Northern Ireland only gets that special status in light of its un-enforceable land border with the Republic of Ireland. That clearly does not apply to Scotland, Wales and London so their argument is invalid, unless they're proposing to fill in the Irish Sea and create a new land border.

If the Republic of Ireland was not in the EU, NI wouldn't be getting special treatment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 19:01:40


 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

Spoiler:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Irish border issue is another case of kicking the can a bit farther down the road. The road runs out in October, though.

I think what will happen is that no-one will be able to invent a magic seamless customs system, and eventually NI will end up in a long term customs union with Eire and thereby the EU. In other words, the new border will be the Irish Sea.

Personally I think this is an acceptable situation, and we can hope that in 5-10 years the magic solution will be invented, or else the UK may rejoin the EU anyway. (I expect it to happen in 10-15 years.)

I expect the DUP to be completely alienated by this solution, but May will go with it anyway because it's more important to keep the Tory Party on side.

In other Brexit related news, here's another Big Brexy Bonus!





I think you're right. It's really the only solution which sees NI remain part of the UK and still satisfy the GFA. It'll mean losing the support of the DUP, but they aren't likely to vote with Labour on anything anyway.

Basically the rest of the UK is highly likely to sell NI down the river in order to make this work, there isn't much sympathy for Unionists in England, and the DUP's image exasperates that. I genuinely believe that Brexit is the first step to a United Ireland, and the more the DUP stamp their feet and make problems, the more likely that is to happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 19:17:30


"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I don't see it as selling NI down the river. I see it as being a huge benefit for them.

Effectively continuing membership of the EU and getting a dark blue passport too!

They'll have the best of both worlds!

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Northern Ireland only gets that special status in light of its un-enforceable land border with the Republic of Ireland. That clearly does not apply to Scotland, Wales and London so their argument is invalid, unless they're proposing to fill in the Irish Sea and create a new land border.

If the Republic of Ireland was not in the EU, NI wouldn't be getting special treatment.


However that doesn't stop legal challenges and it largely depends on the laws and interpretations (which to be fair there probably isn't any so will get tied up in all sorts of challenges).

There is also an equalities angle. Any organisation has to treat all it's employees equally and in particular public bodies have to do this. The question is then the civil service has to treat people equally (statutory law). Therefore if some people are being treated different because of their race (e.g. Northern Irish vs Scottish) then they are being treated unfairly and can be prosecuted for this. It gets even worse for organisations and businesses. If their work spans both NI/Scotland (for example) and because NI is in the EU (effectively) but still in the UK (legally) then they have to treat individuals equally. All of a sudden you have an almighty quagmire if the employees complain that they are being treated differently simply because they are Scottish. How that would play out in tribunals I don't know....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't see it as selling NI down the river. I see it as being a huge benefit for them.

Effectively continuing membership of the EU and getting a dark blue passport too!

They'll have the best of both worlds!


Plus 50% of the UK will probably move there to get the same EU benefits...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 19:51:46


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The UK maintains all sorts of variant legal statuses for various territories like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and Gibraltar as well as the NI, Scottish and Welsh assemblies which all have special arrangements and different laws to England.

It won't be hard to set up a new jurisdiction for NI.

It's obviously necessary for NI to have an open border with Eire, and equally obviously impossible to have a closed border between London and the UK, for example.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
The UK maintains all sorts of variant legal statuses for various territories like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and Gibraltar as well as the NI, Scottish and Welsh assemblies which all have special arrangements and different laws to England.

It won't be hard to set up a new jurisdiction for NI.

It's obviously necessary for NI to have an open border with Eire, and equally obviously impossible to have a closed border between London and the UK, for example.


Do you really think the government have thought of this though. And that's the issue. Unless they legislate to make NI a special case (unlike the DUP which is just a basket case) then you invite these types of challenges.

And it's never impossible to have a closed border between two land states, it happens all the time. We could just use the central reservation of the M25 as the starting point... . It's not a case of can't, but more likely won't.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/20 22:43:56


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






I don't think a significant fraction of the Northern Irish population will agree to effectively being reunited with the Republic of Ireland (which is what you're suggesting - no border between Belfast and Dublin, but a border between Belfast and Edinburgh, Cardiff and London).

In particular, the ten MPs who apparently run the entire UK won't like it.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I think about half will, possibly more once they realise how important the integration between south and north is for their jobs and prosperity. However it doesn't matter because it won't be put to a referendum.

The Tory Party doesn't field candidates in NI anyway, and needn't fear any consequences at the next general election.

May will cut the DUP loose if they get too pissy about it. Her key job is to prevent the "real" Tory party from imploding under the stress. She will find enough allies from the other side of the house ot deliver the vote she needs on this particular issue.

The DUP will still have to vote with the Conservatives on lots of other things where their interests are aligned.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:

The Tory Party doesn't field candidates in NI anyway, and needn't fear any consequences at the next general election.


We can but hope that the Tories do get punished at the next general election. However a lack of DUP support at a critical vote could bring about the Tory government and a fresh GE.

On an aside there still appears to be a sticking point in the transition deal. Spain is requesting more assurances that it can Veto Gibraltar having access to the single market. So whilst we've focussed on one issue, another one has been forgotten about.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/spain-refuses-to-back-withdrawal-deal-over-gibraltar-concerns

Also it appears the freedom of movement of UK citizens in the EU already has been dropped from the agreement for unknown reasons

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article-32-missing-agreement-uk-citizens-free-movement-eu-britain-latest-updates-a8264631.html

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury



from earlier today :

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/976379382695636992



Jacob Rees-Mogg was supposed to board the Brexit fishing boat at Embankment pier. But he's just been told he's not allowed on because no one asked TFL's permission




Jacob Rees-Mogg has abandoned ship - or at least, abandoned the ship he never actually boarded. Apparently he's got to go to a select committee





"Rule Britannia"




Nigel Farage began by throwing a single fish. Then he threw a whole crate of fish. Then he threw a second whole crate of fish






...imagine that eh ?

Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 reds8n wrote:


from earlier today :

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/976379382695636992

Jacob Rees-Mogg was supposed to board the Brexit fishing boat at Embankment pier. But he's just been told he's not allowed on because no one asked TFL's permission



The sad thing is for the small fisherpeople is just how screwed they are going to get by pulling out. They will never benefit from relaxed quotas and farm fishing. The big businesses certainly will (until the waters are fished to oblivion). The big businesses will just then move elsewhere. The smaller fishing vessels will just have to abandon their careers (though they will probably still blame the EU with no real understanding).


Nigel Farage began by throwing a single fish. Then he threw a whole crate of fish. Then he threw a second whole crate of fish



I wonder if he can be prosecuted for polluting waterways?

 reds8n wrote:




...imagine that eh ?

Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”



Why should he be surprised, we became a joke nation when we voted for Wrexit.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/03/21 18:56:49


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Amazingly enough, lots of people thought Britain was a joke nation between 1974 and 2017.

They aren't laughing now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deleted by me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 08:46:43


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Are mods allowed to get away with posting hateful rhetoric about punching politicians in the face? I get that you don't like him, hell if I paid attention to half of what he says I'd probably dislike him too but for feths sake could we please tone it down in the interests of maintaining a civil debate here?

Or should people on the Leave side of the debate here take your example as a green light to start making similar remarks about EU and Remainer politicians?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 11:13:54


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Or should people on the Leave side of the debate here take your example as a green light to start making similar remarks about EU and Remainer politicians?
Great idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jo_Cox
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

I'm with Shadow Captain on this one; the current level of discourse in the thread is quite frankly bad. No amount of Whataboutism changes that.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Mario wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Or should people on the Leave side of the debate here take your example as a green light to start making similar remarks about EU and Remainer politicians?
Great idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jo_Cox


It was precisely the murder of Jo Cox that I had in mind, actually. Given that a politician was murdered during Brexit, perhaps we should refrain from remarks about violence against any politicians no matter which side of Brexit they're on? (or anyone else for that matter).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 01:08:17


 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Given that a politician was murdered during Brexit, perhaps we should refrain from remarks about violence against polticians? (or anyone else for that matter).

Please do. I browse this thread from time to time and find it interesting to follow what is being discussed. I would hate to UK politics become a shuttered topic such as US politics is.


 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




Given as I actually do political stuff and run in elections, I'd like to second the general motion for less threats of physical violence, joking or otherwise.

It's not as funny as you might think.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

I'll settle for the metaphorical punch in the knackers for JRM as he watches his dream of a Victorian utopia shattered by coming into hard contact with the real world.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Fair points. I shall withdraw my remark on Rees-Mogg.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
 
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