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Help needed guys.

So been out the game for a good 18 months - 2 years. A " hobby goal" of mine has always been a Ultramarine army, never painted a marine before and it's something I feel is the time. Here's the kicker, I really dislike Primaris. What I want to use is your classic space marines, Tactical squads, Terminators, Dreadnaughts and the like with one or two special characters like Marneus and Guilliman. Think 90's / early naughties with special characters.

While I'm not looking for the top net lists going around. I am a semi competitive player and certainly dont want to turn up and get smashed every game. Is such a thing as a strong list with the aforementioned units possible? Or am looking at the impossible dream? Some possible lists would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Welcome to Dakka and the Ultramarines.

I don’t think primaris are “required” to be competitive. They do have some nice things, but like most units in the marine arsenal, different roles can be done by different units.

One big thing in 8th is leveraging auras. Get those re-roll to hit and wound going, bunch up a lot of nice firepower, cause mayhem. With the new UM ability to move and fire efficiently in the tac doctrine, You don’t even have to be a static firebase!

With the new codex just being a week or so old, it’s hard to tell what will take over as the new hotness. Points efficiencies can make a big difference.

What I might suggest is working with a battalion. Command points fuel shenanigans. So you need 3 troop picks. You could go with Tacs or scouts (or a mix) Thematically some 5 man tacs w plasma in razors pushing forward could work well. Run Guiliman up with them for auras and to carve things in half. Add a Ven dread a/o ironclads (or FW dreads) for some extra punch.

I’d then take some dev squads, and may some long range tanks and sit back to pour fire down range. Support with a captain/LT for buffs, and to fill your HQ slots.

Might not be top-table competitive, but should do reasonably well at the local shop.

Well, I battled a Primaris-only Crimson First army recently and found that they are much better than Marines with their underperforming bolters. Moreover, the new and shiny Invitors are steered by a Primaris. Frankly, I'd start a Primaris army, nothing else.

If you are willing to spend FW money, going for a HH Themed (not a HH) army is a way to go.

Leviathans and Contemptor Mortis look cool and make great gun platforms. Mk3/4 looks better to me than Mk7, so you could go with those models, and depending on what you want your Terminators to do (Shoot, fight, a mix?) you could use any of the types of Terminators we now have available.

 Nevelon wrote:
Welcome to Dakka and the Ultramarines.

I don’t think primaris are “required” to be competitive. They do have some nice things, but like most units in the marine arsenal, different roles can be done by different units.

One big thing in 8th is leveraging auras. Get those re-roll to hit and wound going, bunch up a lot of nice firepower, cause mayhem. With the new UM ability to move and fire efficiently in the tac doctrine, You don’t even have to be a static firebase!

With the new codex just being a week or so old, it’s hard to tell what will take over as the new hotness. Points efficiencies can make a big difference.

What I might suggest is working with a battalion. Command points fuel shenanigans. So you need 3 troop picks. You could go with Tacs or scouts (or a mix) Thematically some 5 man tacs w plasma in razors pushing forward could work well. Run Guiliman up with them for auras and to carve things in half. Add a Ven dread a/o ironclads (or FW dreads) for some extra punch.

I’d then take some dev squads, and may some long range tanks and sit back to pour fire down range. Support with a captain/LT for buffs, and to fill your HQ slots.

Might not be top-table competitive, but should do reasonably well at the local shop.

Thank you for the welcome. You are pretty much nailing it for me as to what I envisioned playing with. I've did a rough list and was hoping to get your opinion particularly on load outs and HQ choices to fine tune the list.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [71 PL, 1,290pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Master-crafted boltgun

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 104pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 104pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 104pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Ironclad Dreadnought [7 PL, 116pts]: Meltagun, Seismic hammer
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Ironclad Dreadnought [7 PL, 116pts]: Meltagun, Seismic hammer
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Terminator Assault Squad [10 PL, 181pts]
. Terminator Sergeant: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. 2x Terminator w/THSS: 2x Storm shield, 2x Thunder hammer
. 2x Terminator w/x2LC: 2x Lightning Claw (Pair)

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [6 PL, 146pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 350pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 350pts]

++ Total: [89 PL, 1,640pts]

Even for backfield camping captains, I like to give them a CC toy. It’s only 4 points for a sword, and they have a lot of attacks that get improved.

You need a second HQ for the battalion. A Lieutenant would be my first call, but they just reworked chaplains, so they might actually help a firebase these days.

I come from a "boys before toys” philosophy, where I’d rather have more boots on the ground than fewer over equipped ones. Thunderhammers might be great, but that’s a lot of points sunk into gear on guys who don’t get that many swings with them. I’d just stick with combi-plas on the tac sarges. Chainswords for CC unless you’ve got points to spare. You don’t want to be in CC, and have the option to fall back and shoot.

I’m a big fan of classic dreads. I’ve not personally used them, but the FW ones get good reviews. The contempor is also pretty nice, and better able to keep up with the tanks.

If you are advancing with Guiliman, there is no reason for the extra fist; you already have a source of re-rolls. Might as well grab the hurricane bolters to help thin out hordes. I’ve not dome the mathhammer, but I’m not sure the -1 to hit from the hammer is worth the point of AP and 2 damage boost over the chianfist. With full re-rolls nearby it does loose some of it’s impact, but also how many things need to be punched that hard? (Answer: lots of things, check you local meta for things like knights)

And as much as I like the ironclad, 8th is a very shooty edition, so you might want to swap one out for something with a little more range. Ven Dred with TLLC and a fist could be fun, or as you are going to be moving up, the AsC is not a bad option.

Terminators look fine. I like a hammer on the sarge, but run a mix myself when they hit the table.

(List building aside: You have 3x elites here, if you add another HQ you can split them off from the battalion to a separate detachment for more CP.)

With squads being able to split fire these days mixing weapons in dev squads is not the horrible thing it use to be. You should probably try to keep the range the same though. With the new UM movement trick, I’m thinking agressively deployed grav cannon dev squads could be a thing, but I’d go all-in if doing that. Take 4, stick them in a razor, and advance with the rest of the crew. If you are sitting back and camping (someone needs to keep boot on that home objective) I’d stick with the longer range stuff. Right now I tend to go with 2xLC, 1xML, 1xHB. Take a look at the stratagems. There are ways to get some MWs out of HB/ML if you have a few in your army. Might as well build to take advantage of that.

Guiliman is going to be your warlord, so that sets your trait. Look at the stratagems and see if there are any you want to build around. Also, look at the relics. First one is free, and some might be worth paying the CP to add into your list.

Techmarines make good extra HQs in mech lists due to their low cost. If you just need to fill a HQ slot, you could also just slap Chronos on a tank. He’d be a little wasted in a razor, but would nicely shred things with the TLAsC’s. You could also add Talion and some snipers for some ObSec campers.

Overall your list is short on long range AV fire. You’ve got a lot of heavy CC chop, but if you need to carve your way through screens, the big guns in the opponent’s back field might do bad things to you before you get there.

 Nevelon wrote:
Even for backfield camping captains, I like to give them a CC toy. It’s only 4 points for a sword, and they have a lot of attacks that get improved.

You need a second HQ for the battalion. A Lieutenant would be my first call, but they just reworked chaplains, so they might actually help a firebase these days.

I come from a "boys before toys” philosophy, where I’d rather have more boots on the ground than fewer over equipped ones. Thunderhammers might be great, but that’s a lot of points sunk into gear on guys who don’t get that many swings with them. I’d just stick with combi-plas on the tac sarges. Chainswords for CC unless you’ve got points to spare. You don’t want to be in CC, and have the option to fall back and shoot.

I’m a big fan of classic dreads. I’ve not personally used them, but the FW ones get good reviews. The contempor is also pretty nice, and better able to keep up with the tanks.

If you are advancing with Guiliman, there is no reason for the extra fist; you already have a source of re-rolls. Might as well grab the hurricane bolters to help thin out hordes. I’ve not dome the mathhammer, but I’m not sure the -1 to hit from the hammer is worth the point of AP and 2 damage boost over the chianfist. With full re-rolls nearby it does loose some of it’s impact, but also how many things need to be punched that hard? (Answer: lots of things, check you local meta for things like knights)

And as much as I like the ironclad, 8th is a very shooty edition, so you might want to swap one out for something with a little more range. Ven Dred with TLLC and a fist could be fun, or as you are going to be moving up, the AsC is not a bad option.

Terminators look fine. I like a hammer on the sarge, but run a mix myself when they hit the table.

(List building aside: You have 3x elites here, if you add another HQ you can split them off from the battalion to a separate detachment for more CP.)

With squads being able to split fire these days mixing weapons in dev squads is not the horrible thing it use to be. You should probably try to keep the range the same though. With the new UM movement trick, I’m thinking agressively deployed grav cannon dev squads could be a thing, but I’d go all-in if doing that. Take 4, stick them in a razor, and advance with the rest of the crew. If you are sitting back and camping (someone needs to keep boot on that home objective) I’d stick with the longer range stuff. Right now I tend to go with 2xLC, 1xML, 1xHB. Take a look at the stratagems. There are ways to get some MWs out of HB/ML if you have a few in your army. Might as well build to take advantage of that.

Guiliman is going to be your warlord, so that sets your trait. Look at the stratagems and see if there are any you want to build around. Also, look at the relics. First one is free, and some might be worth paying the CP to add into your list.

Techmarines make good extra HQs in mech lists due to their low cost. If you just need to fill a HQ slot, you could also just slap Chronos on a tank. He’d be a little wasted in a razor, but would nicely shred things with the TLAsC’s. You could also add Talion and some snipers for some ObSec campers.

Overall your list is short on long range AV fire. You’ve got a lot of heavy CC chop, but if you need to carve your way through screens, the big guns in the opponent’s back field might do bad things to you before you get there.

Thank you for going into so much detail. A lot of the upgrades I added was just me clicking about so your information is much appreciated. I've fine tuned the list a little. Hopefully it looks a little more solid. I'm not sold on the land raider completely. Maybe something could be better there, maybe another dev squad with upgraded HQ options?


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [89 PL, 1,642pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Lieutenants [5 PL, 71pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 94pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 94pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 94pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [10 PL, 189pts]
. Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. 2x Terminator w/THSS: 2x Storm shield, 2x Thunder hammer
. 2x Terminator w/x2LC: 2x Lightning Claw (Pair)

Venerable Dreadnought [6 PL, 124pts]: Assault cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Venerable Dreadnought [6 PL, 124pts]: Assault cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [6 PL, 156pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Land Raider [15 PL, 277pts]: Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 3CP, 350pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 3CP, 350pts]: Warlord

will reply later, please pm me if I forget!

-Avid old-school marines player, and getting decent results!

GamerGuy

Looks pretty good. LRs get a bad rep for a few reasons. In a world where people are geared up to take down multiple knights, they tend not to last long. That said, in casual play, I enjoy fielding mine.

So after reading up and going through models and units I really like I'm pretty sold on this.


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 3CP, 350pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 3CP, 350pts]: Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [82 PL, 1,646pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**

+ HQ +

Captain in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 101pts]: Power sword, Reliquary of Gathalamor, Storm bolter

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought [11 PL, 176pts]
. Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Storm bolter
. Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Heavy flamer

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 71pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 71pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 70pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [10 PL, 181pts]
. Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Terminator w/THSS: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. 3x Terminator w/x2LC: 3x Lightning Claw (Pair)

Venerable Dreadnought [6 PL, 142pts]: Twin lascannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Venerable Dreadnought [6 PL, 142pts]: Twin lascannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 314pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon

++ Total: [100 PL, 3CP, 1,996pts]

Idea (in theory) is plopping the chaplain dread and assault terminators in the stormraven and hoping to cause some problems in the back line.
Guilliman frog marching up with the 2 dreads and 2 plasma tac squads with razorback.
Heavy weapon tac squad hanging back a little with the captain and devs

What do you reckon?