Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do we know the exact numbers? Trillions? Millions of Hive ships? Is it true when said Tryrannis are running away from something bigger and they are horrified or simply they have consumed the galaxy and moving to ours?

What is the size of Hive Fleet Levathian and is it true that only Necrons can eventually stop them for good?

Isn't the size of leviathan fleet zero, thanks to Gulliman and his primaris?

As far as I'm aware, the true numbers are entirely unknown right now. Whilst it appears that the hive fleets are separate, the shape of them implies that they could simply be the tendrils of a single, galaxy-sized fleet.

Necrons aren't the only ones who can stop them, though the price involved is pretty high. There was some fluff about starving a hive fleet by performing exterminates on every planet in their path, depriving them of the biomass they need to survive.

Orks as well have a chance, as they are everywhere I nthe galaxy, and the imperium managed to divert a nid fleet onto an ork world, reasoning whichever race lost would be weakened and they could wipe them out. To their horror, both races began a genetic arms-race to become bigger and better than the other, and they realised that whichever survived, their opponent would be worse than ever.

My own crackpot theory:


so I don't think necrons are the only ones who can stop them - I'm actually fairly sure that if the whole galaxy wasn't at war with itself, they would be able to do a lot of damage to the nids, and probably wipe them out. too bad they're all killing each other instead!

They pretty much never give exact numbers for any faction. Doing so closes off narrative options in the future.

Tyranids are shrouded in more mystery than a lot of other factions even - as their origins are completely unknown. The Tyranids in the galaxy might be all or most of them. Or they might be a tiny fraction. They may have already overwhelmed countless other galaxies and so number orders of magnitude greater than the total population of all other races in our galaxy.

Basically, no one knows and GW will never definitively say.

The theory about them running away from something is just that - a theory. It's an official theory in canon - that is, the Imperium have speculated it. But no one knows if it is true.

The size of the Tyranids, their origin, their intent, their motivations - all this is totally unknown. Even within their own Codex the lore is mostly written from the viewpoint of Imperial scientists and studies on them and guesswork as to what the Tyranids want.

Their numbers are beyond the Trillions - even hive fleets are vast in their numbers when the ships produce swarms to invade worlds and to protect the ships from attack by other races.

As for what is out there in the black beyond the rim of the Galaxy - that is anyone's guess. Are the Tyranids drawn to the Galaxy to feed; are they drawn for another reason; are they fleeing another; are they a natural part of the universe, a supreme bioweapon - agents of a greater power. Heck how many hive fleets is unknown - are we dealing with a vanguard of a massive greater force; the last escaping dreg ends of a once greater force. An exploratory force, a full invasion force.


Tyranids are the great unknown of all the races of 40K and the most alien of its creatures.



As for Necrons they are no more better equipped to battle Tyranids than any other force. Whilst its true that Necrons will purge worlds of all life; Tyranids are quite happy to break down minerals and use the power of suns etc.... Though they clearly prefer to break down direct organic life which clearly provides a faster feeding source.
Heck Tyranids are currently building a vast hive world for a purpose no one yet knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:


The theory about them running away from something is just that - a theory. It's an official theory in canon - that is, the Imperium have speculated it. But no one knows if it is true.

It's also a popular fan theory because most of the galaxy is currently under the heel of one mega-race or another. So its hard to add new alien races to the setting because in order to get large enough to actually be worth fighting the Imperium of Man or the Orks etc... ;they've got to be left alone for a long while to get up to a decent enough size to not be wiped out by a single Imperial fleet and a world bomb. Tau were already a stretch and clearly had some Eldar help in being hidden but also some powerful fluff armour just to let them get enough a foot hold not to be wiped out in a flick of a local Imperial magistrates pen.

Of course the original Tau design was going to see them have a core of Tau warriors and battlesuits supported by lots of other alien races; a mish mash of xenos reflecting the Tau's ideals and also the number of races who would otherwise be squished under the Imperium getting a chance to rise up. However its clear that sale and design interest have latched onto the battlesuit core far more so. Even the Kroot - the first of the fully fleshed out allied forces, have been left quite ignored as part of Tau for a long while.

genestealers wrote:
Do we know the exact numbers? Trillions? Millions of Hive ships? Is it true when said Tryrannis are running away from something bigger and they are horrified or simply they have consumed the galaxy and moving to ours?

What is the size of Hive Fleet Levathian and is it true that only Necrons can eventually stop them for good?

Probably pretty low at any given time.

As I understand it, the invasion organisms aren't actually birthed until it's time for the invasion, and throw themselves into the digestion pools once their job is done to be re-assimilated into the hive fleet.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

genestealers wrote:
Do we know the exact numbers? Trillions? Millions of Hive ships? Is it true when said Tryrannis are running away from something bigger and they are horrified or simply they have consumed the galaxy and moving to ours?

What is the size of Hive Fleet Levathian and is it true that only Necrons can eventually stop them for good?

Probably pretty low at any given time.

As I understand it, the invasion organisms aren't actually birthed until it's time for the invasion, and throw themselves into the digestion pools once their job is done to be re-assimilated into the hive fleet.

Mostly this. Being alive eats into the fleet resources, and nids don't like it.
Also, it has been confirmed (don't remember where) that the current tendrils in the galaxy are just a small vanguard of the full nid fleet.
By the way, it is also canon now that the hyve fleets are not emotionless, they can at the very least prove anger.

As for Leviathan, not much is left of it. The opening of the cicatrix slashed the fleet in half, and that (with the generous help of a huge amount of demons pouring from it) proved to be a fatal wound.

 Overread wrote:

As for Necrons they are no more better equipped to battle Tyranids than any other force. Whilst its true that Necrons will purge worlds of all life; Tyranids are quite happy to break down minerals and use the power of suns etc.... Though they clearly prefer to break down direct organic life which clearly provides a faster feeding source.
Heck Tyranids are currently building a vast hive world for a purpose no one yet knows.

Necrons have weapons no other race does. For example, that 'starve them out' tactic of leading nids to planets and destroying the surface? The Necrons can simply destroy the star (force a supernova), killing the every ship in the system at one go. OTOH the Necrons probably also view the Tyranids as a mere annoyance that will pass through in a short period of time before moving on to other galaxies, unlike the other races that will hang around and claim territory.

As above, there is no hard numbers, but it is known they’ve consumed *at least* one other galaxy, so there’s a good chance that their numbers are far beyond any single faction in our galaxy, and may be close to the combined population of our own.

There’s also been hints that the Astronomicon - the beacon produced by the Emperor to guide Imperial ships through the Warp May be attracting the Tyranids too our galaxy.

If so, Abbadon May have inadvertently given our galaxy a reprieve from more Tyranid invasions, as the presence of the Circadium whatsis blocks the Astronomicon signal - possibly also shrouding it from Tyranid detection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the Silent King’s entire purpose to awakening Necron tombs was to prepare them for war against the ‘Nids. The Necrons aren’t about to let this galaxy be stripped of life that the Necronsintend to harvest in their doomed efforts to return to being “living” creatures.

So the inquisitor that enacted the Scorched Earth policy to deprive the Hive fleets any sustenance was executed for Heresy I thought? Or am I wrong? He basically was like, I heard the cry of the Planet Tryanis, and I need to stop them, I will destroy like 5 planets. The Inquisition thought he went insane, and the GK has to execute him?

this was all read a very long time ago, is very possible this is fan fluff or something....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the inquisitor that enacted the Scorched Earth policy to deprive the Hive fleets any sustenance was executed for Heresy I thought? Or am I wrong? He basically was like, I heard the cry of the Planet Tryanis, and I need to stop them, I will destroy like 5 planets. The Inquisition thought he went insane, and the GK has to execute him?

this was all read a very long time ago, is very possible this is fan fluff or something....

Nope, you’re mostly remembering correctly - the Imperium (and other races) have tried several approaches to blunting the Tyranid’s advance, from destroying planets being fed on via Exterminatus (and the individual was executed - see “rocks are not free Citizen” for the Imperium’s logic in that one being too costly), to trying to kill them with virus bombs (ending up creating resistance survivors) and throwing a Waagh at them (can’t remember who won that one, but the survivors got stupidly stronger - causing even more mayhem and becoming even more difficult to stop).

 Stormonu wrote:

There’s also been hints that the Astronomicon - the beacon produced by the Emperor to guide Imperial ships through the Warp May be attracting the Tyranids too our galaxy.

Oh its not a hint, the big lightbulb is explicitly confirmed as drawing them in.

 Stormonu wrote:

If so, Abbadon May have inadvertently given our galaxy a reprieve from more Tyranid invasions, as the presence of the Circadium whatsis blocks the Astronomicon signal - possibly also shrouding it from Tyranid detection.

Again, not speculation. The Great Rift physically shredded most of the hive fleet tendrils that had made it into the Milky Way, blocked the signal from countless forerunner Genestealer infestations, and generally fethed Tyranids something fierce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:


and throwing a Waagh at them (can’t remember who won that one, but the survivors got stupidly stronger - causing even more mayhem and becoming even more difficult to stop).

There are several ongoing Nid vs Ork throwdowns occuring at the moment. The Orks are loving it, as it gives them basically an endless playground to krump and smash in.

Isn't Catachan basically a Nid homeworld where only several strains exist? Same with Orks? Why aren't the Ork's and the Nids of Catachan wiping each other out?

Lotz and lotz.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't Catachan basically a Nid homeworld where only several strains exist? Same with Orks? Why aren't the Ork's and the Nids of Catachan wiping each other out?

There are no Tyranids on Catachan. There is a native plant that acts similar to a specific tyranid bioform, but that is mentioned only once to my knowledge.

I've always liked this image of the true scale of the Nids.



Really puts things into perspective.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't Catachan basically a Nid homeworld where only several strains exist? Same with Orks? Why aren't the Ork's and the Nids of Catachan wiping each other out?

There are no Tyranids on Catachan. There is a native plant that acts similar to a specific tyranid bioform, but that is mentioned only once to my knowledge.

There's a line in one of the Tyranid codex where its hypothesised that the Catachan Devil might be the decedents of an ancient vanguard tyranid breed that came to the Galaxy many aeons ago. There are also rumours like that spread about the place in the lore. The idea that Tyranids explored and scouted out the galaxy before the first hive fleet ever arrived. However they appear to have no connection to the hive mind and swarms of today. This suggests that the vanguard might "seed" worlds or even simply turn feral once their purpose is completed. The idea of early vanguard having reproductive capacity isn't far fetched if they are designed to operate without spawning pools and Norn Queens. With repeated generations whittling down the Tyranid mind links and such until they are akin to feral beasts. Their purpose for the hive completed and they simply populate and await destruction at the claws of the swarm when it arrives.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the inquisitor that enacted the Scorched Earth policy to deprive the Hive fleets any sustenance was executed for Heresy I thought? Or am I wrong? He basically was like, I heard the cry of the Planet Tryanis, and I need to stop them, I will destroy like 5 planets. The Inquisition thought he went insane, and the GK has to execute him?

this was all read a very long time ago, is very possible this is fan fluff or something....

Kryptman is very much alive, though he was excommunicated but resurfaced again after the Deathwatch discovered Hive Fleet Tiamet defending territory and building... something. Both rather un-Nid like behaviours. More than likely some kind of beacon. It certainly seems to be that as in the GSC codex there is a Chaos cult lead by a being called The Conduit. They make a pilgrimage to the world that Tiamet has took over and touch its surface. Then they leave to spread the message they received.

A Beacon - a staging ground - a massive shadow in the warp to push back chaos - a super tyranid that devours whole worlds - whatever it is we as yet still don't know its true purpose.

It could even just be building up to be a huge staging ground so that when a hive fleet gets pummelled and slowed (or starved of easy food) it can retreat back, resupply and then push forward. Allowing the Swarm to consume easy worlds and feed those fleets that are striking against more heavily defended sectors.

The Swarm certainly cannot overlook that thus far its opponents are adapting to fight it. Evolution and change are at the core of the Tyranid so new behaviours and approaches is critical to overcoming the defenders.

 Overread wrote:
A Beacon - a staging ground - a massive shadow in the warp to push back chaos - a super tyranid that devours whole worlds - whatever it is we as yet still don't know its true purpose.

It could even just be building up to be a huge staging ground so that when a hive fleet gets pummelled and slowed (or starved of easy food) it can retreat back, resupply and then push forward. Allowing the Swarm to consume easy worlds and feed those fleets that are striking against more heavily defended sectors.

The Swarm certainly cannot overlook that thus far its opponents are adapting to fight it. Evolution and change are at the core of the Tyranid so new behaviours and approaches is critical to overcoming the defenders.

And evolving new models for games workshop to sell!

I reckon they are the great devourer and would love to see them enter the eye of terror.

Uriel Ventris and the Inquisition destroyed one of the tendrills of Leviathan with a retro engineered virus on Tarsis Ultra, another tendrills was sent to the octarius system were they battled orks (the war is now ove because of the cicatrix IIRC) and the last one was destroyed at Baal by the Imperium and Khorne.
So the octarius tendrils should still be here.

The necrons do have a few advantages: they often live in dead world (or at least it used to be the case, as it was a way to ensure noone would come to their worlds while sleeping) and they do have anti warp fields they disturb the hive mind. Be careful this is quite old fluff as I don't like the stupid retcon they did that destroyed every good bit of lore of this army.

 Grimtuff wrote:
I've always liked this image of the true scale of the Nids.

Spoiler:

Really puts things into perspective.

That fan fiction, isn't it ?

Yes, it's not an official GW image. Though it is what I imagine the true mass of the Hive fleets to be.

As for Tyranids, we have one known quote regarding their numbers and it is arguably more for flavor rather than literal number count but nonetheless:

A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is no more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds.
(2nd edition Tyranid Codex, p. 4)

That is 10^18 or a million trillion Tyranids.

For comparison, the Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds. So the true population of the Imperium is considerably less since there are "only" 32,380 hive worlds.

32,380 hive worlds at 500 billion per world yields 1.619 * 10^16. The non-hive world population numbers are assumed to be just a rounding error by comparison.

How exactly do you count a race that comes in sizes ranging from single-celled all the way up to spacecraft, and spawns/recycles those forms on a continuous basis?

 catbarf wrote:
How exactly do you count a race that comes in sizes ranging from single-celled all the way up to spacecraft, and spawns/recycles those forms on a continuous basis?

By 1.
Because all of these form a giant organism.
And comparativly fullfill cellular level duties.
Fun fact at the atomic level we ourselves are not solid.
Now extrapulate that to galaxy level.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
How exactly do you count a race that comes in sizes ranging from single-celled all the way up to spacecraft, and spawns/recycles those forms on a continuous basis?

By 1.
Because all of these form a giant organism.
And comparativly fullfill cellular level duties.
Fun fact at the atomic level we ourselves are not solid.
Now extrapulate that to galaxy level.

This is a very cool way of looking at it. I like it!

For Tyranids to assault the entire galaxy you would think they would have a considerable size.

It's so hokey to suggest they are running away from something. Why wouldn' t they pass straight through or around our galaxy. Instead they are closing around the galaxy like a fist. What will they do when they get the centre, just give up and die?

I always thought that after the failure of the Eldar and Orks, that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones to purge the whole galaxy in order to start again.

With hundreds of them dying and spawning every second, it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hard to tell.

 Hawky wrote:
With hundreds of them dying and spawning every second, it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hard to tell.

I mean... That's also true for humans!

I mean, would anyone even want to know ? The truth would haunt your dreams for all time.