Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Now before this thread gets derailed right from the start, let me begin by saying I play the golden bananaboys myself and I love their models and their lore.
Alright, as described in the Codex the Adeptus Custodes are unique in the Imperium of mankind, in that they have the opportunity and the luxury to be individualists. They can form their own opinion, as opposed to most other indoctrinated members of the imperium of man, like space marines for example. They are also technically not part of the imperium, so they are not really bound by any laws. They basically take orders from no one, since the only person who can actually order them around, sits on the golden throne.
To summarize: we have a legion of warrior-scholars, who not only train their martial prowess, but also have to study philosophy, science, religion etc, they are not bound by any imperial law and we know that their word carries tremendous weight, since they are the emperors companions.
So why do I think they are hypocrites? Well, let my quote directly from the codex: "The Emperpr's realm is a festering ruin of overcrowded worlds drowning in their own ignorance and fear. ...They do not deserve their Emperor. They do not deserve us...." Telchor, Custodian Guard. (p. 72)
Now since we know the custodes are all individualists and unique, this opinion may vary from Custodian to Custodian, however we know that they have not been active politically or in a guiding leadership role since the heresy because of the edict where Guilliman and the Captain General agreed that the Custodes should only guard the emperor and are functionally not a part of the imperium anymore (I know they have done stuff since the heresy, but the important part for me now is the political one). BUT they are under not obligation to uphold this edict, since we have established before the Custodes answer to the emperor and to the emperor alone.
So where am I getting with this? In the quote I gave as an example and in various black library publications different Custodians lament the state of the Imperium in the 41st milennium. They are not happy at the direction this vast empire has taken and how far it has strayed from the emperors vision....and that it why I think they are hypocrites. They could have done something. As I've already said their word carries tremendous weight and they are not as clouded by fanaticism and religious zeal as most other members of the imperium, so they could have helped to shape the imperium for the better since the heresy, but they didn't. I am not saying that they should have led the imperium, but I think they could have influenced things for the better even if they only had acted as more active advisers and use their authority to veto bad decisions.
Let me end this by saying that I think this is a good thing. Simply because the custodes are almost too perfect for the grimdarkness of 40k in my opinion. They are perfect warriors, scholars, and are not psychologically indoctrinated murdermachines with the single purpose to purge xenos and heretics like the space marines, which would make them sorta boring...they would have no real flaws. So them being sort of hypocritical and kind of arrogant in this regard, helps to keep them interesting, at least to me.
I just realized how lucky and wonderful they are just by having...their own will and thoughts. Thinking that even the most impressive warriors mankind and the galaxy ever produced, the Space Marines, can't even really think by themselves, is kinda sad.
godardc wrote: I just realized how lucky and wonderful they are just by having...their own will and thoughts. Thinking that even the most impressive warriors mankind and the galaxy ever produced, the Space Marines, can't even really think by themselves, is kinda sad.
Well I do think space marines could think for themselves if you would let them, but since they are massively indoctrinated, they don't really have that opportunity. And if one space marine were to turn out a free thinker the chaplain of that chapter would probably take him aside and beat the critical thoughts out of him.
The only exception to this as far as Astartes are concerned are the space wolves in my opinion....they are the only (or one of the only) chapters who place more value on individualism and common sense.
But yes, in 40k being a member of the Legio Custodes means you're really lucky.
Edit: one last thing regarding the Custodes: we know from the codex that, when the emperor was still around, he expected his Custodes to be able to converse with him and maybe even challenge his ideas, which is a unique concept in 40k all by itself for most factions.
But one could argue that the Custodes might not have a completely free will. We do not know this I think, but I believe the Emperor designed and built the Custodes in a way where it was virtually impossible for them to betray him or be corrupted by the chaos forces. So they do not choose to follow the emperor with everything they've got, it was built into them....they have no choice in the matter, at least I think so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 21:02:15
godardc wrote: I just realized how lucky and wonderful they are just by having...their own will and thoughts. Thinking that even the most impressive warriors mankind and the galaxy ever produced, the Space Marines, can't even really think by themselves, is kinda sad.
You see will and conciousness are funny things.
Take their indoctrination for exemple which applies all knowledge to a marine including behavioural patterns mostlikely either directly or indirectly.
You would still however apply them under cogito ergo sum.
As in they still have selfawareness and a will to act on their own.
Compare that to a servitor which in most cases has none.
However Philosophy has multiple schools on conciousness and how it interacts.
Some go so far as to state we have no influence on the World with our will regardless and that all things and actions are predetermined.
Others say that the will and mind is bound within it's own sphere.
Depending on your position a normal human has no will no free will or just free will and free will and power to act.
Yes i know i go hide behind Kant again.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 21:01:23
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
We do have mandatory philosophy classes in high school in France and do remember an allegory: if you throw a rock in the sky, and it suddenly became alive, would he thinking he is flying because he wants it ? Will he be able to understand his path was given to him by the hand that threw him ?
Tiberias wrote: Let me end this by saying that I think this is a good thing. Simply because the custodes are almost too perfect for the grimdarkness of 40k in my opinion. They are perfect warriors, scholars, and are not psychologically indoctrinated murdermachines with the single purpose to purge xenos and heretics like the space marines, which would make them sorta boring...they would have no real flaws. So them being sort of hypocritical and kind of arrogant in this regard, helps to keep them interesting, at least to me.
The Custodes have already failed, their time is done. Their job was to protect the emperor, and they failed and he is dead. They really serve no purpose, except as a fragment of what could have been and as more bodies for the galactic grinder. I think that is what makes them so compelling, they are quintessentially 40k. This passage is what turned 40k from a passing fancy to a serious hobby for me.
Spoiler:
We were never soldiers.
Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in
our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as we were in the earliest days when
He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To
them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we
were created for destruction and nothing else.
But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided.
We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse at
what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its
vicious weaknesses.
Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a
necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity.
We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it
secure.
We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that
cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red
that once adorned our battleplate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we
know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and
we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not
have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy
defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that
was broken, and remain aware of what would have been.
I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens.
Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that
our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an
extinguished vision.
But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek
to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers.
We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages.
We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple
creations. The aeons have changed us in many ways, but not in that.
We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers.
What are they to do? Fighting back is a fool's errand. Nothing they can do will ever fix the imperium, return it to what could have been. How could they secure webway without the Emperor or an equivalent psyker? How can they fully separate humanity, even a part of humanity, from the warp? All they can do is slow down their death.
The Custodes are humanity perfected, in their minds they are the baseline normal human and everyone else is a deviant. It is no wonder they regard us humans as we regard monkeys, subhuman. On top of that, imagine if you lived on top of a veritable continent of monkeys, one of only a few thousand humans surrounded by trillions of savages. It speaks to their foritude that they haven't tried to kill us all. Now imagine that the monkeys are constantly, intentionally fething up and summoning deamons or otherwise courting the dark gods. No human is immune to the temptations of the warp given the right circumstances, but at the same time one must intentionally fall to chaos. As a result, every human is capable of intentionally and consciously embracing chaos (philosophy side note here: even if humans did not want to join chaos but did, no matter how you define want, then that only shows that they lack control over their own emotions and power, which is not any better than being prone to corruption from the beginning). Custodes are not, or at least orders of magnitude less likely to do the same. Now why are Custodes so critical of the conditions of imperial citizens? Humans deserve the galaxy they live in since they created it. Well the Astartes created it, but Custodes see Astartes as slightly better than a normal human at best and an evolutionary dead-end at worst.
I am glad to see that Custodes are doing some stuff now. I don't like old lore where they stayed in the imperial palace all this time. I hope GW quietly retcons it to where Custodes were doing some stuff for the past 10,000 years, but only with the battle at the lion's gate did they decide to take a more active role. I don't think GW knew how popular Custodes would be until Alfabusa released TTS, so never thought of them as a faction any more significant than the Hrud.
godardc wrote: I just realized how lucky and wonderful they are just by having...their own will and thoughts. Thinking that even the most impressive warriors mankind and the galaxy ever produced, the Space Marines, can't even really think by themselves, is kinda sad.
Well I do think space marines could think for themselves if you would let them, but since they are massively indoctrinated, they don't really have that opportunity. And if one space marine were to turn out a free thinker the chaplain of that chapter would probably take him aside and beat the critical thoughts out of him.
The only exception to this as far as Astartes are concerned are the space wolves in my opinion....they are the only (or one of the only) chapters who place more value on individualism and common sense.
But yes, in 40k being a member of the Legio Custodes means you're really lucky.
Edit: one last thing regarding the Custodes: we know from the codex that, when the emperor was still around, he expected his Custodes to be able to converse with him and maybe even challenge his ideas, which is a unique concept in 40k all by itself for most factions.
But one could argue that the Custodes might not have a completely free will. We do not know this I think, but I believe the Emperor designed and built the Custodes in a way where it was virtually impossible for them to betray him or be corrupted by the chaos forces. So they do not choose to follow the emperor with everything they've got, it was built into them....they have no choice in the matter, at least I think so.
>Space Wolves
>Common Sense
Pick one
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
BrianDavion wrote: there's actually a lot of evidance custodes hold the astartes in partiuclar contempt
They hold the GK and primarchs in contempt, or some other negative emotion. I don't think they have any more contempt towards normal Astartes than they do towards normal humans. In MoM a Custodian was able to have a conversation with a BA, for a while. That's better than the interaction he had with some children, almost killing them.
Tiberias wrote: Let me end this by saying that I think this is a good thing. Simply because the custodes are almost too perfect for the grimdarkness of 40k in my opinion. They are perfect warriors, scholars, and are not psychologically indoctrinated murdermachines with the single purpose to purge xenos and heretics like the space marines, which would make them sorta boring...they would have no real flaws. So them being sort of hypocritical and kind of arrogant in this regard, helps to keep them interesting, at least to me.
The Custodes have already failed, their time is done. Their job was to protect the emperor, and they failed and he is dead. They really serve no purpose, except as a fragment of what could have been and as more bodies for the galactic grinder. I think that is what makes them so compelling, they are quintessentially 40k. This passage is what turned 40k from a passing fancy to a serious hobby for me.
Spoiler:
We were never soldiers.
Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in
our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as we were in the earliest days when
He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To
them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we
were created for destruction and nothing else.
But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided.
We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse at
what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its
vicious weaknesses.
Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a
necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity.
We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it
secure.
We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that
cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red
that once adorned our battleplate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we
know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and
we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not
have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy
defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that
was broken, and remain aware of what would have been.
I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens.
Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that
our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an
extinguished vision.
But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek
to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers.
We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages.
We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple
creations. The aeons have changed us in many ways, but not in that.
We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers.
What are they to do? Fighting back is a fool's errand. Nothing they can do will ever fix the imperium, return it to what could have been. How could they secure webway without the Emperor or an equivalent psyker? How can they fully separate humanity, even a part of humanity, from the warp? All they can do is slow down their death.
The Custodes are humanity perfected, in their minds they are the baseline normal human and everyone else is a deviant. It is no wonder they regard us humans as we regard monkeys, subhuman. On top of that, imagine if you lived on top of a veritable continent of monkeys, one of only a few thousand humans surrounded by trillions of savages. It speaks to their foritude that they haven't tried to kill us all. Now imagine that the monkeys are constantly, intentionally fething up and summoning deamons or otherwise courting the dark gods. No human is immune to the temptations of the warp given the right circumstances, but at the same time one must intentionally fall to chaos. As a result, every human is capable of intentionally and consciously embracing chaos (philosophy side note here: even if humans did not want to join chaos but did, no matter how you define want, then that only shows that they lack control over their own emotions and power, which is not any better than being prone to corruption from the beginning). Custodes are not, or at least orders of magnitude less likely to do the same. Now why are Custodes so critical of the conditions of imperial citizens? Humans deserve the galaxy they live in since they created it. Well the Astartes created it, but Custodes see Astartes as slightly better than a normal human at best and an evolutionary dead-end at worst.
I am glad to see that Custodes are doing some stuff now. I don't like old lore where they stayed in the imperial palace all this time. I hope GW quietly retcons it to where Custodes were doing some stuff for the past 10,000 years, but only with the battle at the lion's gate did they decide to take a more active role. I don't think GW knew how popular Custodes would be until Alfabusa released TTS, so never thought of them as a faction any more significant than the Hrud.
I get your point, but we all know that the Custodes failed their sworn duty, that was not my main point. My main point was that they lament the state of the imperium, but did nothing since the heresy to shape it for the better. And no of course they cant change it by the power of their military force, they are only 10000. But as I said, had they acted as advisers, they could have helped to prevent the clusterfeth that is the Imperium in 40k at least to some extent....at least in my opinion.
I mean say what you will about Guilliman, but hey immediatly tried to do his best to turn things around for the imperium as soon as he woke up....the Custodes needed a wake up call from him. (again I KNOW that the Custodes did stuff since the heresy, but they did not lead in a political sense, which was my point)
godardc wrote: I just realized how lucky and wonderful they are just by having...their own will and thoughts. Thinking that even the most impressive warriors mankind and the galaxy ever produced, the Space Marines, can't even really think by themselves, is kinda sad.
Well I do think space marines could think for themselves if you would let them, but since they are massively indoctrinated, they don't really have that opportunity. And if one space marine were to turn out a free thinker the chaplain of that chapter would probably take him aside and beat the critical thoughts out of him.
The only exception to this as far as Astartes are concerned are the space wolves in my opinion....they are the only (or one of the only) chapters who place more value on individualism and common sense.
But yes, in 40k being a member of the Legio Custodes means you're really lucky.
Edit: one last thing regarding the Custodes: we know from the codex that, when the emperor was still around, he expected his Custodes to be able to converse with him and maybe even challenge his ideas, which is a unique concept in 40k all by itself for most factions.
But one could argue that the Custodes might not have a completely free will. We do not know this I think, but I believe the Emperor designed and built the Custodes in a way where it was virtually impossible for them to betray him or be corrupted by the chaos forces. So they do not choose to follow the emperor with everything they've got, it was built into them....they have no choice in the matter, at least I think so.
>Space Wolves
>Common Sense
Pick one
The Space Wolves in 40k under Logan Grimnar display more compassion and common sense than many other chapters. There is a good example in "The emperors gift" from Aaron Dembsky-Bowden, where the Space Wolves try to prevent the genocide of those soldiers who fought valiantly along side them on Armageddon by the hands of the inquisition. Generally they do not give a gak what the inquisition or the ecclesiarchy says, they also don't really give a gak about the Codex Astartes, which further emphasises that they are very much capable of critical thinking towards the machinachions of the imperium.
30k Space Wolves under Leman Russ can be stubborn, simple minded douchebags, but this thread is not about Space Wolves so let's leave it at that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 05:12:02
godardc wrote: We do have mandatory philosophy classes in high school in France and do remember an allegory: if you throw a rock in the sky, and it suddenly became alive, would he thinking he is flying because he wants it ? Will he be able to understand his path was given to him by the hand that threw him ?
Pretty much.
Is the existence of free will even possible.
Is probably one of the oldest questions in Philosophy.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
godardc wrote: We do have mandatory philosophy classes in high school in France and do remember an allegory: if you throw a rock in the sky, and it suddenly became alive, would he thinking he is flying because he wants it ? Will he be able to understand his path was given to him by the hand that threw him ?
Pretty much.
Is the existence of free will even possible.
Is probably one of the oldest questions in Philosophy.
Though fascinating, I don't think we will solve the philosophical issue of free will in this tread.
Another thing I might need to correct from my OP is this: I said the word of a Custodian carries tremendous weight and therefore they could have acted as advisors more actively in the time following the heresy. This was surely the case during the heresy and shortly after, but I think we actually do not know if their word still carries the same weight in 40k. I mean they have been rather inactive politically for 10000 years, they might just be a distant memory for most members of the imperium who are not directly from terra or members of the inquisition.
godardc wrote: We do have mandatory philosophy classes in high school in France and do remember an allegory: if you throw a rock in the sky, and it suddenly became alive, would he thinking he is flying because he wants it ? Will he be able to understand his path was given to him by the hand that threw him ?
Pretty much.
Is the existence of free will even possible.
Is probably one of the oldest questions in Philosophy.
Though fascinating, I don't think we will solve the philosophical issue of free will in this tread.
Another thing I might need to correct from my OP is this: I said the word of a Custodian carries tremendous weight and therefore they could have acted as advisors more actively in the time following the heresy. This was surely the case during the heresy and shortly after, but I think we actually do not know if their word still carries the same weight in 40k. I mean they have been rather inactive politically for 10000 years, they might just be a distant memory for most members of the imperium who are not directly from terra or members of the inquisition.
Yes and no, basically it depends on how their indoctrination works compared to that of a marine.
And the assumption that a marine that is indoctrinated has atleast his free will impaired.
That said, they are hypocrtis, they could've easily been usefull or sent one or two of their morons to the meetings with the highlords of terra atleast.
I mean it's on the same fething planet.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
godardc wrote: We do have mandatory philosophy classes in high school in France and do remember an allegory: if you throw a rock in the sky, and it suddenly became alive, would he thinking he is flying because he wants it ? Will he be able to understand his path was given to him by the hand that threw him ?
Pretty much.
Is the existence of free will even possible.
Is probably one of the oldest questions in Philosophy.
No, true free will does not exist, at least not in humans. We can consciously restrain and steer our instincts and impulses up to a certain degree to exhibit proper behaviour given the (social) context you find yourself in but that doesn't equal true free will.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 10:18:59
Tiberias wrote: Let me end this by saying that I think this is a good thing. Simply because the custodes are almost too perfect for the grimdarkness of 40k in my opinion. They are perfect warriors, scholars, and are not psychologically indoctrinated murdermachines with the single purpose to purge xenos and heretics like the space marines, which would make them sorta boring...they would have no real flaws. So them being sort of hypocritical and kind of arrogant in this regard, helps to keep them interesting, at least to me.
The Custodes have already failed, their time is done. Their job was to protect the emperor, and they failed and he is dead. They really serve no purpose, except as a fragment of what could have been and as more bodies for the galactic grinder. I think that is what makes them so compelling, they are quintessentially 40k. This passage is what turned 40k from a passing fancy to a serious hobby for me.
Spoiler:
We were never soldiers. Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as we were in the earliest days when He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we were created for destruction and nothing else. But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided. We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse at what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its vicious weaknesses. Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity. We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it secure. We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red that once adorned our battleplate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that was broken, and remain aware of what would have been. I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens. Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an extinguished vision. But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers. We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages. We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple creations. The aeons have changed us in many ways, but not in that. We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers.
What are they to do? Fighting back is a fool's errand. Nothing they can do will ever fix the imperium, return it to what could have been. How could they secure webway without the Emperor or an equivalent psyker? How can they fully separate humanity, even a part of humanity, from the warp? All they can do is slow down their death.
The Custodes are humanity perfected, in their minds they are the baseline normal human and everyone else is a deviant. It is no wonder they regard us humans as we regard monkeys, subhuman. On top of that, imagine if you lived on top of a veritable continent of monkeys, one of only a few thousand humans surrounded by trillions of savages. It speaks to their foritude that they haven't tried to kill us all. Now imagine that the monkeys are constantly, intentionally fething up and summoning deamons or otherwise courting the dark gods. No human is immune to the temptations of the warp given the right circumstances, but at the same time one must intentionally fall to chaos. As a result, every human is capable of intentionally and consciously embracing chaos (philosophy side note here: even if humans did not want to join chaos but did, no matter how you define want, then that only shows that they lack control over their own emotions and power, which is not any better than being prone to corruption from the beginning). Custodes are not, or at least orders of magnitude less likely to do the same. Now why are Custodes so critical of the conditions of imperial citizens? Humans deserve the galaxy they live in since they created it. Well the Astartes created it, but Custodes see Astartes as slightly better than a normal human at best and an evolutionary dead-end at worst.
I am glad to see that Custodes are doing some stuff now. I don't like old lore where they stayed in the imperial palace all this time. I hope GW quietly retcons it to where Custodes were doing some stuff for the past 10,000 years, but only with the battle at the lion's gate did they decide to take a more active role. I don't think GW knew how popular Custodes would be until Alfabusa released TTS, so never thought of them as a faction any more significant than the Hrud.
I get your point, but we all know that the Custodes failed their sworn duty, that was not my main point. My main point was that they lament the state of the imperium, but did nothing since the heresy to shape it for the better. And no of course they cant change it by the power of their military force, they are only 10000. But as I said, had they acted as advisers, they could have helped to prevent the clusterfeth that is the Imperium in 40k at least to some extent....at least in my opinion. I mean say what you will about Guilliman, but hey immediately tried to do his best to turn things around for the imperium as soon as he woke up....the Custodes needed a wake up call from him. (again I KNOW that the Custodes did stuff since the heresy, but they did not lead in a political sense, which was my point)
What I was trying to say is that the Custodes are not mary sues, even before you get into their personal flaws.
I am skeptical about how much the Custodes could change the imperium's bureaucracy on their own. A custodian has about the same authority level as an inquisitor (that is to say, all of it), and the inquisition certainly hasn't solved much. I don't think it's a question of knowledge either. How much progress has Gulliman made in restructuring the Imperium's political structure? He can't simply do away with the ecclesiarchy. He even had to reinstate the high lords. Ultramar seems to be the only area where Gulliman can do much, and that is just 500 worlds. All he has done for the wider imperium is to tell the mechanics to stop salvaging space hulks and make new ships instead (it's more expensive but it keeps chaos away, and we don't know how well they will follow through) and he started a civil war over timekeeping. He also killed a bunch of officials on Terra, but they just got temporarily less corrupt replacements. I don't think they Custodes would be any more successful, especially since they are working with Gulliman on all of these. Even then, government has never been the biggest problem to face the Imperium. Information and resource transportation are the biggest problems (source: Watchers of the Throne), and only the Emperor has a slim chance of fixing those.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 19:21:48
Tiberias wrote: Let me end this by saying that I think this is a good thing. Simply because the custodes are almost too perfect for the grimdarkness of 40k in my opinion. They are perfect warriors, scholars, and are not psychologically indoctrinated murdermachines with the single purpose to purge xenos and heretics like the space marines, which would make them sorta boring...they would have no real flaws. So them being sort of hypocritical and kind of arrogant in this regard, helps to keep them interesting, at least to me.
The Custodes have already failed, their time is done. Their job was to protect the emperor, and they failed and he is dead. They really serve no purpose, except as a fragment of what could have been and as more bodies for the galactic grinder. I think that is what makes them so compelling, they are quintessentially 40k. This passage is what turned 40k from a passing fancy to a serious hobby for me.
Spoiler:
We were never soldiers.
Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in
our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as we were in the earliest days when
He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To
them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we
were created for destruction and nothing else.
But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided.
We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse at
what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its
vicious weaknesses.
Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a
necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity.
We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it
secure.
We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that
cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red
that once adorned our battleplate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we
know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and
we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not
have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy
defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that
was broken, and remain aware of what would have been.
I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens.
Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that
our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an
extinguished vision.
But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek
to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers.
We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages.
We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple
creations. The aeons have changed us in many ways, but not in that.
We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers.
What are they to do? Fighting back is a fool's errand. Nothing they can do will ever fix the imperium, return it to what could have been. How could they secure webway without the Emperor or an equivalent psyker? How can they fully separate humanity, even a part of humanity, from the warp? All they can do is slow down their death.
The Custodes are humanity perfected, in their minds they are the baseline normal human and everyone else is a deviant. It is no wonder they regard us humans as we regard monkeys, subhuman. On top of that, imagine if you lived on top of a veritable continent of monkeys, one of only a few thousand humans surrounded by trillions of savages. It speaks to their foritude that they haven't tried to kill us all. Now imagine that the monkeys are constantly, intentionally fething up and summoning deamons or otherwise courting the dark gods. No human is immune to the temptations of the warp given the right circumstances, but at the same time one must intentionally fall to chaos. As a result, every human is capable of intentionally and consciously embracing chaos (philosophy side note here: even if humans did not want to join chaos but did, no matter how you define want, then that only shows that they lack control over their own emotions and power, which is not any better than being prone to corruption from the beginning). Custodes are not, or at least orders of magnitude less likely to do the same. Now why are Custodes so critical of the conditions of imperial citizens? Humans deserve the galaxy they live in since they created it. Well the Astartes created it, but Custodes see Astartes as slightly better than a normal human at best and an evolutionary dead-end at worst.
I am glad to see that Custodes are doing some stuff now. I don't like old lore where they stayed in the imperial palace all this time. I hope GW quietly retcons it to where Custodes were doing some stuff for the past 10,000 years, but only with the battle at the lion's gate did they decide to take a more active role. I don't think GW knew how popular Custodes would be until Alfabusa released TTS, so never thought of them as a faction any more significant than the Hrud.
I get your point, but we all know that the Custodes failed their sworn duty, that was not my main point. My main point was that they lament the state of the imperium, but did nothing since the heresy to shape it for the better. And no of course they cant change it by the power of their military force, they are only 10000. But as I said, had they acted as advisers, they could have helped to prevent the clusterfeth that is the Imperium in 40k at least to some extent....at least in my opinion.
I mean say what you will about Guilliman, but hey immediately tried to do his best to turn things around for the imperium as soon as he woke up....the Custodes needed a wake up call from him. (again I KNOW that the Custodes did stuff since the heresy, but they did not lead in a political sense, which was my point)
What I was trying to say is that the Custodes are not mary sues, even before you get into their personal flaws.
I am skeptical about how much the Custodes could change the imperium's bureaucracy on their own. A custodian has about the same authority level as an inquisitor (that is to say, all of it), and the inquisition certainly hasn't solved much. I don't think it's a question of knowledge either. How much progress has Gulliman made in restructuring the Imperium's political structure? He can't simply do away with the ecclesiarchy. He even had to reinstate the high lords. Ultramar seems to be the only area where Gulliman can do much, and that is just 500 worlds. All he has done for the wider imperium is to tell the mechanics to stop salvaging space hulks and make new ships instead and he started a civil war over timekeeping. He also killed a bunch of bureaucrats on Terra, but they just got temporarily less corrupt replacements. I don't think they Custodes would be any more successful, especially since they are working with Gulliman on all of these. Even then, bad government has never been the biggest problem to face the Imperium. Information and resource transportation are the biggest problems (source: Watchers of the Throne), and only the Emperor can fix those (with the webway).
I largely agree with you, changing the imperium as it is now is almost certainly doomed to fail....way too much has gone wrong since the heresy. However, and again that was my original point, had the custodes acted as leaders and advisers right after the heresy and had they continued to do so, I believe they could have made a difference.
Also it's not that important for this discussion, but I would argue that a custodian has a bit more authority and prestige than a inquisitor. I mean I think there is one example in a black library publication where one inquisitor tried to order a custodian around at the risk of losing his head on the spot.
Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
Because gulliman threatened them to or else they would need to fully read the codex
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 20:37:00
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I largely agree with you, changing the imperium as it is now is almost certainly doomed to fail....way too much has gone wrong since the heresy. However, and again that was my original point, had the custodes acted as leaders and advisers right after the heresy and had they continued to do so, I believe they could have made a difference.
Also it's not that important for this discussion, but I would argue that a custodian has a bit more authority and prestige than a inquisitor. I mean I think there is one example in a black library publication where one inquisitor tried to order a custodian around at the risk of losing his head on the spot.
To be fair that’s always been part and parcel of being an inquisitor, theoretically your powers are unlimited but practically you can only get away with what you can convince people you can get away with. Picking a fight with a custodian is probably as smart as picking a fight with a chapter of marines as a junio inquisitor with little to no backing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
Cause GW needed an explanation of why you could suddenly purchase the models for use in 40k. Forgive me if I’m wrong but custodes and sisters of silence were first introduced at 30k units with a 40k port over?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 20:45:55
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
pm713 wrote: Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
Well they did not spend millennia doing nothing as evidenced by their new codex. They were very active eliminating threats that could one day threaten the segmentum solar or terra itself, but they have operated completely outside of the machinations of the imperium of man. They were not bound by any authority or law essentially, but they kept their pact with guilliman to not interfere politically and just protect the emperor (and by extension the segmentum solar).
Now since guilliman came back, he's had a nice chat with the emperor and the captain general of the custodes trajann valoris and they came to the conclusion that the custodes should become more active again and take leadership roles and help guide and secure the imperium at a larger scale and not only focus most of their attention to terra and the golden throne.
So yeah, the point of this thread was basically that they could have done this way earlier when they recognized, that the imperium is slowly going to gak after the heresy.
One more thing though! We know that during the later days of the heresy most forces of the custodes were bound to fight in the webway portal beneath the golden throne, because magnus screwed up the emperors psychic defenses. And we know that they had suffered massive casualties in the war for the webway. So there could also be an argument made that in the time after the heresy, the legio custodes didn't even have the manpower to guide the imperium and they could not have done so in an effective way because we know it takes a really long time for them to replenish their numbers.
So maybe they were not too arrogant and hypocritical to act, maybe they couldn't do so because of lacking manpower....at least for a couple thousand years after the heresy.
pm713 wrote: Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
Well they did not spend millennia doing nothing as evidenced by their new codex. They were very active eliminating threats that could one day threaten the segmentum solar or terra itself, but they have operated completely outside of the machinations of the imperium of man. They were not bound by any authority or law essentially, but they kept their pact with guilliman to not interfere politically and just protect the emperor (and by extension the segmentum solar).
Now since guilliman came back, he's had a nice chat with the emperor and the captain general of the custodes trajann valoris and they came to the conclusion that the custodes should become more active again and take leadership roles and help guide and secure the imperium at a larger scale and not only focus most of their attention to terra and the golden throne.
So yeah, the point of this thread was basically that they could have done this way earlier when they recognized, that the imperium is slowly going to gak after the heresy.
One more thing though! We know that during the later days of the heresy most forces of the custodes were bound to fight in the webway portal beneath the golden throne, because magnus screwed up the emperors psychic defenses. And we know that they had suffered massive casualties in the war for the webway. So there could also be an argument made that in the time after the heresy, the legio custodes didn't even have the manpower to guide the imperium and they could not have done so in an effective way because we know it takes a really long time for them to replenish their numbers.
So maybe they were not too arrogant and hypocritical to act, maybe they couldn't do so because of lacking manpower....at least for a couple thousand years after the heresy.
But they're so massively OP they don't need all of them to defend Segmentum Solar.
Honestly, it feels to me a lot like their activity is less to do with Guilliman being back and more to do with some of the Custodes getting plastic models. The idea of not enough numbers doesn't really do it for me because unless they replenish at something like a man per year they easily had the strength to do more and even in the lore I've seen they seem to wait until someone forces them to do things before doing anything..
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Forgive me for the derailing but why DID the Custodes start doing things again? They spent millenia bumming around then started to do their jobs properly.
Well they did not spend millennia doing nothing as evidenced by their new codex. They were very active eliminating threats that could one day threaten the segmentum solar or terra itself, but they have operated completely outside of the machinations of the imperium of man. They were not bound by any authority or law essentially, but they kept their pact with guilliman to not interfere politically and just protect the emperor (and by extension the segmentum solar).
Now since guilliman came back, he's had a nice chat with the emperor and the captain general of the custodes trajann valoris and they came to the conclusion that the custodes should become more active again and take leadership roles and help guide and secure the imperium at a larger scale and not only focus most of their attention to terra and the golden throne.
So yeah, the point of this thread was basically that they could have done this way earlier when they recognized, that the imperium is slowly going to gak after the heresy.
One more thing though! We know that during the later days of the heresy most forces of the custodes were bound to fight in the webway portal beneath the golden throne, because magnus screwed up the emperors psychic defenses. And we know that they had suffered massive casualties in the war for the webway. So there could also be an argument made that in the time after the heresy, the legio custodes didn't even have the manpower to guide the imperium and they could not have done so in an effective way because we know it takes a really long time for them to replenish their numbers.
So maybe they were not too arrogant and hypocritical to act, maybe they couldn't do so because of lacking manpower....at least for a couple thousand years after the heresy.
But they're so massively OP they don't need all of them to defend Segmentum Solar.
Honestly, it feels to me a lot like their activity is less to do with Guilliman being back and more to do with some of the Custodes getting plastic models. The idea of not enough numbers doesn't really do it for me because unless they replenish at something like a man per year they easily had the strength to do more and even in the lore I've seen they seem to wait until someone forces them to do things before doing anything..
I agree and I only said and argument could be made in this case, not that it was a good argument.
Also as far as we knor constantin valdor survived the heresy and then disappeared, right? He could have made a massive difference in the time after the heresy. I mean he was one of the closest companions to the emperor since the unification wars and one of the very, very few people the emperor may have considered as a close personal friend. So he could have definitely done something....at least in theory, we do not know exactly what happened to him as far as I know (but I am so pumped about chris wraights book about him and hopefully find out).
And you are also correct than many pieces of lore seem to be hamfisted into the setting, because their plastic models turned out to be way more popular than GW had thought. One of the best examples for me is this:
In the 8th ed custodes codex there are many examples listed where the custodes eliminate threats and/or protect important people that could maybe one day do great deeds for the imperium and those examples happened way before guilliman came back.
And then we have goge vandire and the age of apostasy, a time where the imperium almost fell apart, but the custodes did nothing until the last second where they granted a squad of sisters an audience with the emperor and after big E talked some sense into them, the sisters killed vandire. The custodes did nothing basically.
This massively contradicts how the custodes are portrayed in their 8th ed codex and further emphasizes your point that GW never expected that they actually had to expand and explore the lore of the adeptus custodes in detail and make them a dedicated faction. They can't portray them as unable imeciles, who did nothing for 10000years, but if you add to their lore in retrospect and display them as active (but in secret) you run into contradictions with old and established lore, where they did nothing (because they were not established as a faction that sells GW models) but could have done something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 21:14:10
Tiberias wrote: [I largely agree with you, changing the imperium as it is now is almost certainly doomed to fail....way too much has gone wrong since the heresy. However, and again that was my original point, had the custodes acted as leaders and advisers right after the heresy and had they continued to do so, I believe they could have made a difference.
Also it's not that important for this discussion, but I would argue that a custodian has a bit more authority and prestige than a inquisitor. I mean I think there is one example in a black library publication where one inquisitor tried to order a custodian around at the risk of losing his head on the spot.
I guess Custodes would outrank inquisitors, not it matters to anyone else. The only problem with asking the Custodes to do stuff right after the herey is that there were basically no Custodes left. The took a 90% casualty rates during the war in the webway and probably suffered even more during the Siege of terra. There were almost certainly less than 100 at the end, not even enough to thoroughly guard the throne room (that takes 300). It would have taken 2000 years to build the Custodes up to 10000 in the first place. I would have taken much longer to build up without the Emperor to train them and having all of their other duties to attend to. Say it took 4000 years to recover their numbers, that would mean they would only have been able to act by the age of apostasy. I doubt the imperium was in much better shape in M34 than it is in M41.
Tiberias wrote: [I largely agree with you, changing the imperium as it is now is almost certainly doomed to fail....way too much has gone wrong since the heresy. However, and again that was my original point, had the custodes acted as leaders and advisers right after the heresy and had they continued to do so, I believe they could have made a difference.
Also it's not that important for this discussion, but I would argue that a custodian has a bit more authority and prestige than a inquisitor. I mean I think there is one example in a black library publication where one inquisitor tried to order a custodian around at the risk of losing his head on the spot.
I guess Custodes would outrank inquisitors, not it matters to anyone else. The only problem with asking the Custodes to do stuff right after the herey is that there were basically no Custodes left. The took a 90% casualty rates during the war in the webway and probably suffered even more during the Siege of terra. There were almost certainly less than 100 at the end, not even enough to thoroughly guard the throne room (that takes 300). It would have taken 2000 years to build the Custodes up to 10000 in the first place. I would have taken much longer to build up without the Emperor to train them and having all of their other duties to attend to. Say it took 4000 years to recover their numbers, that would mean they would only have been able to act by the age of apostasy. I doubt the imperium was in much better shape in M34 than it is in M41.
I've made a similar point a few posts up, but 100 custodians could have still made a differnce in the time after the heresy I think....not in a military sense, but as advisers. And yes, their numbers were down and it takes them a considerable time to rebuild them, but at he time of the age of apostasy there would have been enough custodes around to kill vandire themselves. Hell, 100 of them could have just walked up to his palace on terra, demanded an audience and then killed him. Afterwards they only need to tell everyone the emperor directly told them to do so...who would challenge their claims on that?
Except we know the Custodes occasionally DID get involved. it was rare and often subtle but the did. their hand in getting the sisters of battle to turn on Valdare is proably the most obvious example. It seems clear to me that the Custodes likely acted quietly behind the scenes to address perceived dangers. that said you have to keep in mind where their loyalty falls. Their loyalty is to the EMPEROR, not his Imperium.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: Except we know the Custodes occasionally DID get involved. it was rare and often subtle but the did. their hand in getting the sisters of battle to turn on Valdare is proably the most obvious example. It seems clear to me that the Custodes likely acted quietly behind the scenes to address perceived dangers. that said you have to keep in mind where their loyalty falls. Their loyalty is to the EMPEROR, not his Imperium.
Yeah sry, but I adressed this exact point in this thread. They took the sisters to the emperor at the very last moment, when vandires quasi dictatorship was already falling apart. They did nothing the main period of time that lunatic was basically at the top of the imperium. And I also pointed out that this is in direct contradiction to the custodes 8th ed codex, where GW gives multiple examples of the custodes intervening in much smaller matters than goge vandire. So you would think having an absolute madman steering the imperium against a wall would make them act earlier.
Maybe offing a member of the Council Of Terra would have been too much of an overt political move and been in a contradiction of their agreement with Guilliman post-Heresy?
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
What about Vangorich? Why didn't the custodes step in when he had all the other highlords assassinated and basically took control of Terra? The space marines had to do the dirty work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 07:36:44
Yes i know i go hide behind Kant again.....
