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Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)

These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).

Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?

There was a rumor that Iron hands and imperial fists would be the strongest chapters. So far it's coming true. I don't really know what to say about "proxying" Ultramarines as iron hands, I know I'd never have a problem with it but I know you've seen people say that paint jobs do in fact lock you in to what chapter you play

I'm betting IF will also have a devastator super doctrine which is a huge advantage over other chapters.

Do you what you gotta do to have fun

You might not, but you should. #boysinblue.

Do whatever you want, it's fine.

I'll be sticking with the Ultras for sure. I think they are perfectly good and actually more flexible.

Iron Hands are a more easy to use, point and click army. We'll see how they actually perform in dynamic, objective based games at higher levels of play.

Make no mistake however, you could take an Iron Hands list with a few Dreads, a few Repulsors and various infantry units and probably go 3,1,1 at a GT or Major without much experience lol

 Xenomancers wrote:
I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all.

Haven't you just answered your own question here?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)

These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).

Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?

It's fine. The Codex Astartes has alternate color schemes and unit markings, down to camo patterns for different environments. Yes, there have been pictures of this (and they're still around if you can find the First Book of the Astronomicon compliation (the red one).
And if this weren't the case, most every modern Dark Angel army would be 'illegal,' since their 'codex color' is black.

The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.

The real question is, how does the new Iron Hands meme list kill a knight?

This has been an issue since forever.

Should you feel bad ? If you have to ask I doubt you will so do what you want.

That said, I wouldn't feel bad. Here is the thing, if you go around with blue marines saying they are iron hands, that feels meh. If they are all ultra marined up, that kinda urks me but I get people want the best toys so fair enough.

What I would do, and usually do is unless I'm sure I want that specific chapter i do my own paint schemes and try and stick away from chapter specific things just so it's not as hard to change it up if I want to. That said I have Dark Angels and Space Wolves and i'd not run them as anything but them, vanilla marines ? I'm more open to whatever with them.

Remember just because this book says iron hands, raven guard , whatever, you can really say they are whatever your chapter is as its more combat styles and less just those chapters. So could be plenty of other chapters that have a penchant for tech, or stealthy character strikes, so on, so forth.

Just to me it makes more sense to say your chapter is whatever name you've got, using iron hands rules as opposed a million iron hands armies. It's a small difference but it helps with my immersion.

I should urge people not to run to conclusions about what is or isn't the best chapter.

Iron Hands seem fantastic and will be great, no doubt. They're also really, really easy to use and the combos Re obvious to anyone at a glance.

We don't know if they are indeed the best, and we have no idea what the other chapters will also bring.

This thread is why you should always use a custom color scheme for your competitive marines collection.

Well, mostly you should use a custom scheme because the official ones look bad, impractical or are indistinguishable at a glance.

Black with a crumpled white symbol? Who could it be?

It's pretty arrogant to just assume people will know the difference just because you play marines.

Also, no one gives a feth what you play and you specifically probably aren't going to win anyway. You'll be back here complaining about disintigrator cannons and Castellans within a week.

Do what you want in a competitive game where nobody cares about fluff anyway, in a narrative setting I'd find it strange and WAAC behavior.

Yeah, i wouldn't have problem with it.
Actually i would be glad. UM so far look much stronger against my nids than IH.

I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all.

Haven't you just answered your own question here?

Xeno has basicly been complaining about everything since the space marine codex leaks started, this is just more of the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'll be sticking with the Ultras for sure. I think they are perfectly good and actually more flexible.

Iron Hands are a more easy to use, point and click army. We'll see how they actually perform in dynamic, objective based games at higher levels of play.

Make no mistake however, you could take an Iron Hands list with a few Dreads, a few Repulsors and various infantry units and probably go 3,1,1 at a GT or Major without much experience lol

strats will be the telling factor obviously.

Marine player agonizing over power creep weeks after first power creep as their previous blue army already feels outdated is pretty funny.

Well, invul is good I guess, but would it really come into play against many D2 weapons? Say against Reapers you are already rolling 5+. And don't some vehicles like dreads already have it (or 2+)? And you are becoming vulnerable due to inability to fall back and shoot which is imo awesome Ultra ability.

You won't be short of company...so as long as you're fine being one of "those guys", go nuts.

Of course you won't feel bad considering you have spent the entirety of 8th moaning about how underpowered and weak marines are.

You aren't the sort of player who is interested in balance and it's very obvious you'd proxy whatever marines were the strongest to suit.

So if we follow the patern of start of 8th ed, in 3-4 codex/supplements we are going to get eldar or new IG, which are going to have units shoting three times per turn and with guardsman still costing 4pts, but now being armed with plasma rifles

Playing blue IH could probably hurt, if you have a specific eye conditon and don't have glasses on you .

Karol wrote:
So if we follow the patern of start of 8th ed, in 3-4 codex/supplements we are going to get eldar or new IG, which are going to have units shoting three times per turn

Judging by 6 new abilities for single Banshee squad, only if new shiny models to buy get released. So Imperium players have nothing to worry about.

Yea I don't think the campaign books will offer anywhere near the same level of rules density as the supplements.

Voss wrote:
The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.

Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.

What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.

nekooni wrote:

Voss wrote:
The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.

Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.

What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.

Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.

Just a heads up.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?

I know. Do you know?

Let me explain. When you jump sub-factions with your models due to powercreep, you reveal that you care more about winning games than portraying an army as it exists in your minds eye.(Were your blue marines hyper-disciplined warriors drilled for every contingency? Now they're more tanky and better with vehicles) That's your choice and your right, you won't be the first or last.

The fact that you're here trying to justify it means that somewhere in your heart you'd like to be (or at least perceived to be) somewhere on the narrative/creative end of the wargamer spectrum. There are narrative reasons to faction switch- in editions without chaos faction rules, Night lords switching to Blood Angels to filed a jump heavy army- Khornate armies fielding as Space Wolves for strong foot melee units with marines mounted on beasts (berzerker bloodcrushers)

You haven't listed any of these though- you're purely after bang for buck points efficiency. Own that, let your opponents know and have fun.

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Voss wrote:
The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.

Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.

What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.

Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.

Just a heads up.

Not at your local GW store, at least from what I heard of our local GW store. It certainly is at the big GW events though. That being said that has nothing to do with what is written in the rulebooks, it's just a house rule for large organized events held by GW.

nekooni wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Voss wrote:
The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.

Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.

What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.

Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.

Just a heads up.

Not at your local GW store, at least from what I heard of our local GW store. It certainly is at the big GW events though. That being said that has nothing to do with what is written in the rulebooks, it's just a house rule for large organized events held by GW.

Consider the fact that it is their official stance for their gt 's etc.
I feel like your argument is moot.

Also my gw store ain't existing because they never bothered to build one in switzerland

Technically, all you need to do is to replace the upside-down toilet seats of your Ultramarines with white skeletal hands and say "MuH SuCceSsoR cHaPtEr".

Leave me alone, am allready fed up with marines and we just have 2 out....