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In the new Space Marine codex there is a double page spread dedicated to a biography of a Pramaris Ultramarine named Pollandus. It follows his career from aspirant to veteran and details all of the different squads that he was a part of during that time.

I thought this information was a pretty fun thing to include but a few things about it don't make sense to me. During his career Pollandus fills just about every combat role that is available to a Primaris marine. Is this normal? I get that cross-training would make your troops more versatile but roles like eliminators and inceptors are so different that it just seems like a waste of time to train the same troops for two such disparate roles. If Pollandus was a competent hellblaster then why on earth would you coop him up in a metal box to serve on a repulsor crew?

Another issue is that Pollandus's career does not progress in a logical order. His first proper role is as a member of a reiver squad, which the game itself classified as an elite role. His final role is as an intercessor - a standard troop. He starts in a specialist covert operations role and ends up as a basic infantry guy with a standard-issue weapon. Surely this is backwards?

I won't pretend to know much about real life military organisations but don't they train everyone to be an infantryman with a basic firearm and then provide additional training to move some of them into more specialised roles? You start with a standard-issue rifle and only later will your commanders give you to chance to learn how to use the specialist weapons, combat vehicles and heavy jump packs? If you train the same guy to be a sniper and a tank loader then some of his expertise is going to be going to waste at any given time.

I get that space marines have much longer life spans and dedicate their whole lives to training but it still seems horribly inefficient for them to train in specialist roles and then abandon them to move onto something completely different. On the other hand, if everyone really has so much experience of different roles then why can they not mix and match their equipment more? Why not give your eliminators grapnel launchers and allow a couple of your intercessors to carry around some magnetic mines for emergencies?

Thoughts?

 Bilge Rat wrote:

Another issue is that Pollandus's career does not progress in a logical order. His first proper role is as a member of a reiver squad, which the game itself classified as an elite role. His final role is as an intercessor - a standard troop. He starts in a specialist covert operations role and ends up as a basic infantry guy with a standard-issue weapon. Surely this is backwards??

Previous marine background started in the Scout companies. A new scout would learn to use a bolter in the field and might show aptitude with support weapons or might show additional aptitude in close combat. Upon promotion to marine, they would be assigned to a reserve company- the assault company for the choppy guys, the devastator company for the support guys and the tactical companies got a mix- with support weapon enthusiasts. As you were crosstrained on squad weapons, you could also get that job if your squadmate died.

A few editions back, they decided that only troops could score objectives. They then introduced background where a marine would work his way forward through the reserve companies- starting in scout, then devastator, then assault, then tactical. The idea was that the tactical marine would have had to master all aspects of warfare - stealthy infiltration, fire support from afar, chopping things up in melee before he was deemed good enough to join a tactical squad and catch bullets for the heavy weapon guy and sarge.

This Primaris thing is a legacy of that. You're right- its a tremendous waste of resources to shuffle people around like this. A workable explanation was that the reserve companies are often required to role shift to support the battle companies- piloting support vehicles and blasting enemies to hell in a hellblaster squad. Another is that Pollandrus has shown no above average aptitude at anything and his commanders are always trying to pawn him off to someone else.

I agree, the order doesn't make sense, but Marines were always trained in every aspect of war.
The final role of an OldMarine was Tactical Squad, so the final role of a Primaris is Intercessor.

I haven't read that specific bit, but it sounds about right. By the time a Marine finishes training / becomes a full Battle-brother they've got more experience than a Guard Veteran. Depending on the Chapter, a new Battle-brothers first assignment was either to a Devastator Squad (as a bolter guy / meat shied - "stand there and don't move") or Assault Squad (burn off some of that youthful energy).

They don't mix & match their equipment because the Codex Astartes does not allow that.

 =Angel= wrote:
Another is that Pollandrus has shown no above average aptitude at anything and his commanders are always trying to pawn him off to someone else.

According to the text he is awesome at everything. He becomes an eliminator fairly early because he is an excellent marksman, so why move away from that? He usually gets reassigned after the rest of his squad gets wiped out and he is the only survivor

beast_gts wrote:


They don't mix & match their equipment because the Codex Astartes does not allow that.

The bit in the Codex Astartes that covers the standard equipment for eliminators and who gets to use a grapnel launcher must be a fairly recent addition. Why not allow that option in the first place?

 Bilge Rat wrote:

The bit in the Codex Astartes that covers the standard equipment for eliminators and who gets to use a grapnel launcher must be a fairly recent addition. Why not allow that option in the first place?

This is a great point. Every Tactical sergeant knows how a signum works, but none are issued one. Before you had the excuse of the codex being treated as poorly understood scripture, so every recommendation for equipment and role was seen as final.
Now Guilliman's back- all that impractical stuff should have been thrown away. Instead we got more.

Grapnel launchers existed in the background as a handwave for how marines might rapidly ascend buildings/scouts get into position- they just weren't given models or rules.

I'm a bit confused. I thought the reason oldmarines still existed in universe was they were more flexible than Primaris but if Primaris are that broadly trained then why do oldmarines exist?

 Bilge Rat wrote:
The bit in the Codex Astartes that covers the standard equipment for eliminators and who gets to use a grapnel launcher must be a fairly recent addition. Why not allow that option in the first place?

No doubt Guilliman will update the Codex when he has a minute (allowing GW to sell new Marine kits).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
I'm a bit confused. I thought the reason oldmarines still existed in universe was they were more flexible than Primaris but if Primaris are that broadly trained then why do oldmarines exist?

Because there's still thousands of them around, they're easier to make and there are massive stockpiles of equipment for them. Plus, not all Chapters have accepted Primaris (only 97% have?).

I guess they are just less resource intensive to house and feed (hence lower points costs).

Having now read up on Pollandus, my gut feeling is that he was promoted too quickly.

beast_gts wrote:

 Bilge Rat wrote:
The bit in the Codex Astartes that covers the standard equipment for eliminators and who gets to use a grapnel launcher must be a fairly recent addition. Why not allow that option in the first place?

No doubt Guilliman will update the Codex when he has a minute (allowing GW to sell new Marine kits).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
I'm a bit confused. I thought the reason oldmarines still existed in universe was they were more flexible than Primaris but if Primaris are that broadly trained then why do oldmarines exist?

Because there's still thousands of them around, they're easier to make and there are massive stockpiles of equipment for them. Plus, not all Chapters have accepted Primaris (only 97% have?).

But their equipment can be given to Primaris, they seem harder to make and apart from those with weird fanaticism issues there's no reason to make oldmarines. They're better in every way really. Why make a normal Marine when you can make a literal half Primarch?

pm713 wrote:
I'm a bit confused. I thought the reason oldmarines still existed in universe was they were more flexible than Primaris but if Primaris are that broadly trained then why do oldmarines exist?

At this pointy he only reason is that some marines are too cowardly to risk the Rubicon Primaris.

The reason there are still Firstborn marines is linked to the same deep lore that prevents Primaris from getting in Landraiders and Rhinos.

Plus there's the armies of M31-M40, which canonically had no Primaris.

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus there's the armies of M31-M40, which canonically had no Primaris.

That's not entirely correct - the latest Cawl novel states he was using Primaris before Guilliman's return. Alpha Primus, a prototype Primaris, stated he had millennia of experience. The book doesn't explain how or why no-one noticed them...

beast_gts wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus there's the armies of M31-M40, which canonically had no Primaris.

That's not entirely correct - the latest Cawl novel states he was using Primaris before Guilliman's return. Alpha Primus, a prototype Primaris, stated he had millennia of experience. The book doesn't explain how or why no-one noticed them...

It's 40k, its canon isn't exactly canon.

beast_gts wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Plus there's the armies of M31-M40, which canonically had no Primaris.

That's not entirely correct - the latest Cawl novel states he was using Primaris before Guilliman's return. Alpha Primus, a prototype Primaris, stated he had millennia of experience. The book doesn't explain how or why no-one noticed them...

I suspect he was using them clandistinely. IIRC there have been stories suggesting experiments with super marines etc published in the past. always played up as a mystery

beast_gts wrote:
That's not entirely correct - the latest Cawl novel states he was using Primaris before Guilliman's return. Alpha Primus, a prototype Primaris, stated he had millennia of experience. The book doesn't explain how or why no-one noticed them...

Why would they notice?

Tall SM were always a thing, they aren't Mechanicus constructs to have a standard, officially allowed height, you know.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect he was using them clandistinely. IIRC there have been stories suggesting experiments with super marines etc published in the past. always played up as a mystery

"Suggesting"? There was one outright stating Mechanicus is trying to come up with SM 2.0, aka Homo Sapiens Novus. It ended in usual disaster, because grimdumb, but it sounded almost exactly like primaris, and that story is decades old...

pm713 wrote:
Why make a normal Marine when you can make a literal half Primarch?

Why not? You still have tons of equipment and geneseed for them, and there are lots of roles where being smaller and weaker is an advantage, not a problem. Why would a tank driver, or gunship pilot, or landspeeder operator, or hell, even a Centurion or Terminator (seeing they don't use their natural strength at all) need to be a Primaris, again?

The equipment you can chuck to the Primaris, modify to give to human soldiers or just dump. The drivers would be Primaris for the same reason they're space marines.

The "progression" of a Marines career has IMO never made a great deal of sense. But in an organization as small as a chapter, having every battle brother be at least competent in as many roles as possible does make sense. So assuming they have access to the equipment, a SM force can go from covert infiltration and sabotage missions to armoured assaults within hours.

But like a lot of the SM background its GW's attachment to the (IMO)daft size restrictions on chapters that's at the root of the problem.